Originally posted by gordomuchacho
The old testament especially as far back as adam is heavily disputed.So. There are many things that are heavily disputed.
Take a look in genesis when noah is about to set sail on the ark, it states first that he should ahve seven pairs of each animal but then red a little farther and it states just one pair. Plus everything was destroyed in the flood even all the people so technically if we go by the bible all modern day people are descendants of noah. Abel had a wife who was not his sister so therefore other peoples had to have existed at the same time as adam and eve. My point is that genesis is very hard to rely on and
Friend, read your Bible again but prayerfully and more carefully. Ask the Father God to help you understand the Word. I am presuming that you are born again. It is only with the Holy Spirit living on the inside of you that you even have a fighting chance of understanding the Word.
My question to JIA is what about all the people who don't have the opportunity to hear gods word?
God is love....
He knows exactly how many people died without Christ. God the Father knows every detail about each person as well. Don't try to do God's job leave that matter to Him. If God called you on the phone and told you that He wanted you do do His job for a day, you wouldn't last 1 second. So don't worry about those people. You don't know what happened to them and you don't need to know what happened to them. Just focus on you and people that you have the opportunity to reach the gospel with today. Do you follow me?
Besides, the Bible says,
[B]2 Corinthians 6:2
For He says:“ In an acceptable time I have heard you,And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.You obviously know a lot
I only know what I study (prayerfully, carefully, and with the Holy Spirit's help). But thanks.
so you know that god is fair and just right so even if they grow believing soemthign else how could he condemn them to hell? Plus there is a belief in purgatory as well so if you don't accept christ initally you can still go to purgatory
Stop right there pal. Show me where in the Bible is the word purgatory?
and eventually make it to heaven. No one can know exactly who goes to heaven and hell.
True. But God does tell how to be saved. If we don't do this then the only alternative is for us to go to the place where the heaters are turned up high.
There are great people out there, non-christian, who have better moral values than many christians.
True. However--and this is one of the many things that set Christianity vastly apart from the religions of the world--you, me, and we (humanity) are not saved by our good works, our morals, our church attendance, our Bible reading, our praying, our baptism, our nice character, our own merit. We are only saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Get the good works = salvation concept far from your mind. Salvation is a free gift. There is nothing that you can ever do to earn something that is free. Read:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith ,and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God ,To say they won't make it to heaven is ridiculous because how can you convice a person with a strong belief in his religion to believ what you beleiev without any proof that your right.
I don't have to convince anyone of anything. The Bible says that the Father God draws us to Jesus.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me , and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.John 6:44-45
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him ; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me .John 17:2
as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him .John 17:11-12
Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept ; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.John 17:24
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me ; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world .You say you know the truth about Jesus, but hypothetically speaking what if a muslim tried to convert you. What if he was right but you thought you were right. Does god then send you to hell because you didn't belive the right thing. God has compassion, and therefore people need to be judged by their actions not for their beliefs
Believing is an action, so is the choice to not believe.
Look, let me break it down for time and eternity: When we stand before God the only thing that is going to matter is:
What did we do with Jesus? Did we accept Him and confess Him as our Lord and Savior? If so, then our sins have been washed in the Blood of Jesus. Our name has been recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life. We are on our way to Heaven. We are saved.
But if not...then none of the aforementioned is true. We are lost.
But like I said before don't stress over things that you have no power to change (no control over). Just know that God is righteous and just and He will take care of the impossible things that we cannot take care of. God is in control. One of the ways that God reaches out to those who don't "believe the gospel" is through ministers of the gospel. Another way is through saved family members. Other ways are through saved relatives, friends, strangers etc. So don't worry about those people.
Originally posted by gordomuchacho
his intentions are good, but his ideas suggest that theres no room for grey and everythign is black and white. In my opinion, if god is suppose to be so loving, caring, and compassionate then there has to be room in heaven for people who are good people in general even with an unclean record.
My response:
Luke 19:10, the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] has come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Being good? Selfless? Helpful?
Friend, according to God (Jesus Christ) humanity is lost. There is a "spiritual" problem at the root of humanity's condition of being lost. We are all sinners in need of salvation.
2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
That is why we must repent. The Greek word for repent is "metanoeo" {met-an-o-eh'-o} it means to "change one's mind." God desires all people to repent "from sin" and turn toward Him for salvation from sin.
1 Timothy 2:3-4, For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men [people] to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
We need salvation if we are not already saved. Being good, selfless, and helpful should FOLLOW one's salvation experience, not be the cause of it. You see a person can be all of those things yet die in their sins and go to Hell. Get saved FIRST then your good deeds will become as fruit and Christ Jesus will reward you accordingly.
John 3:15-17, whoever believes in Him [Jesus Christ] should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son [Jesus Christ], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. “For God did not send His Son [Jesus Christ] into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
We must BELIEVE IN Jesus Christ in order to be saved. We are saved THROUGH CHRIST JESUS not through our good deeds. But our good deeds will get us a reward, so there is some incentive to being good, selfless, and helpful.
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
All of our self-righteous acts/deeds are like filthy rags to God. We can never DO enough nice things, good things, or commendable things in order to attain salvation. We need Christ Jesus for that.
Romans 3:10
As it is written:
There is none righteous, no, not one ;
No person is GOOD enough to go into God's presence in Heaven. Apart from Christ we are all UN-righteous, lost, and spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.
Romans 3:22
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ , to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Figuratively speaking, God STAMPS us RIGHTEOUS as it were once we each "personally" put our faith or trust in Christ Jesus for salvation from sin. It is not possible to be rigteous in God's eyes through good deeds. Our good deeds will ONLY result in a reward ONCE we are saved. But our good deeds DO NOT save us or make us righteous in God's eyes.
Romans 3:24-28
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus , whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus .
Those who trust Jesus for salvation from sin are DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by God the Father. This "right-relationship" or "right-standing" before God is done for us freely by God's grace (underserved favor). For this reason it is futile to attempt to get to Heaven on good works. Salvation is free for us but it cost God the Father His Son. So, God the Father "justifies" or declares "just" (or righteous) those who have FAITH in Jesus FOR salvation. There is nothing that we can do to make ourselves good enough before God. Only God can "justify" us before Himself and that is what He does for those who realize that they can never be good enough to stand in His presence.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith , we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ ,
There is amazing consistency among the Scriptures that we are justified (declared "good enough" to stand in God's presence, in lay-man's terms).
Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ , even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Works of the law is a reference to keeping the Law of Moses. We are not saved by keeping the Ten Commandments or other laws contained in the Law of Moses. Again, amazing continuity and consistency between the Old Testament and New Testament. We are not justifed by the works of the law (of Moses) or by our good works, but ONLY through our personal faith in the Son of God--Jesus the Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves ; it is the gift of God ,
By grace: God the Father's love and grace motivated Him to send His only Son to die for the sins of the entire world so that we could be saved from the consequences of our sins.
Through faith: We appropriate what Jesus accomplished on OUR BEHALF by faith (personal, earnest trust in Jesus Christ for salvation from sin).
Not of yourselves: we are NOT saved by our selflessness, helpfulness, or good deeds. The Word of God continually reiterates this and has made it abundantly clear.
It is the gift of God: Friends, no matter how hard you try you CANNOT earn or merit a gift. Salvation from sin is a FREE gift provided by God but held in trust as it were IN CHRIST.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness , which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith ;
Our righteousness is not self-attained but applied to our lives respectively THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. This is a constant, steadfast, reality shown throughout the New Testament.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Again, we are NOT saved by our good works no matter how helpful, selfless, or commendable.
Titus 3:5-7
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior , that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
This verse sums up everything that I have written, succinctly.
I hope this helps.
Originally posted by meep-meep
And now that it works for you it must work that same way for everyone else...I hope I speak for us all when I say I appreciate your willingness and good nature to tell us all how happy you are with your life and beliefs...good for you...I'm happy that your happy and you should be happy that I (like God) wont force or try and coerce you to believe or appreciate my values in life.
Did I ever say anything about being happy with my life and beliefs or did you put words in my mouth? I mean that may be true but I don't recall ever making this statement.
so wait, god needed his son to die in order to forgive our sins? Who tells their son, "Hey, go get nailed to cross after getting the shit beaten out of you with various weapons, bleed, dehydrate and suffocate to eath, then I'll let these people into heaven. I mean, it's not like I have the power to let them in without you dying, right?"
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
My response:[B]Luke 19:10, the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] has come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Being good? Selfless? Helpful?
Friend, according to God (Jesus Christ) humanity is lost. There is a "spiritual" problem at the root of humanity's condition of being lost. We are all sinners in need of salvation.
2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
That is why we must repent. The Greek word for repent is "metanoeo" {met-an-o-eh'-o} it means to "change one's mind." God desires all people to repent "from sin" and turn toward Him for salvation from sin.
1 Timothy 2:3-4, For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men [people] to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
We need salvation if we are not already saved. Being good, selfless, and helpful should FOLLOW one's salvation experience, not be the cause of it. You see a person can be all of those things yet die in their sins and go to Hell. Get saved FIRST then your good deeds will become as fruit and Christ Jesus will reward you accordingly.
John 3:15-17, whoever believes in Him [Jesus Christ] should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son [Jesus Christ], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. “For God did not send His Son [Jesus Christ] into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
We must BELIEVE IN Jesus Christ in order to be saved. We are saved THROUGH CHRIST JESUS not through our good deeds. But our good deeds will get us a reward, so there is some incentive to being good, selfless, and helpful.
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.All of our self-righteous acts/deeds are like filthy rags to God. We can never DO enough nice things, good things, or commendable things in order to attain salvation. We need Christ Jesus for that.
Romans 3:10
As it is written:There is none righteous, no, not one ;
No person is GOOD enough to go into God's presence in Heaven. Apart from Christ we are all UN-righteous, lost, and spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.
Romans 3:22
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ , to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;Figuratively speaking, God STAMPS us RIGHTEOUS as it were once we each "personally" put our faith or trust in Christ Jesus for salvation from sin. It is not possible to be rigteous in God's eyes through good deeds. Our good deeds will ONLY result in a reward ONCE we are saved. But our good deeds DO NOT save us or make us righteous in God's eyes.
Romans 3:24-28
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus , whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus .Those who trust Jesus for salvation from sin are DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by God the Father. This "right-relationship" or "right-standing" before God is done for us freely by God's grace (underserved favor). For this reason it is futile to attempt to get to Heaven on good works. Salvation is free for us but it cost God the Father His Son. So, God the Father "justifies" or declares "just" (or righteous) those who have FAITH in Jesus FOR salvation. There is nothing that we can do to make ourselves good enough before God. Only God can "justify" us before Himself and that is what He does for those who realize that they can never be good enough to stand in His presence.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith , we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ ,There is amazing consistency among the Scriptures that we are justified (declared "good enough" to stand in God's presence, in lay-man's terms).
Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ , even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.Works of the law is a reference to keeping the Law of Moses. We are not saved by keeping the Ten Commandments or other laws contained in the Law of Moses. Again, amazing continuity and consistency between the Old Testament and New Testament. We are not justifed by the works of the law (of Moses) or by our good works, but ONLY through our personal faith in the Son of God--Jesus the Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves ; it is the gift of God ,By grace: God the Father's love and grace motivated Him to send His only Son to die for the sins of the entire world so that we could be saved from the consequences of our sins.
Through faith: We appropriate what Jesus accomplished on OUR BEHALF by faith (personal, earnest trust in Jesus Christ for salvation from sin).
Not of yourselves: we are NOT saved by our selflessness, helpfulness, or good deeds. The Word of God continually reiterates this and has made it abundantly clear.
It is the gift of God: Friends, no matter how hard you try you CANNOT earn or merit a gift. Salvation from sin is a FREE gift provided by God but held in trust as it were IN CHRIST.
Philippians 3:9
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness , which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith ;Our righteousness is not self-attained but applied to our lives respectively THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. This is a constant, steadfast, reality shown throughout the New Testament.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,Again, we are NOT saved by our good works no matter how helpful, selfless, or commendable.
Titus 3:5-7
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior , that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.This verse sums up everything that I have written, succinctly.
I hope this helps. [/B]
Repentance is important, i agree with you that people need to do that. I don't agree however that god looks on faith in jesus alone to determine who goes to heaven or not. Look at the old testament for example, the laws and rules in there were supposed to be followed by jews, there was no date set upon stopping these practices. Then Jesus comes into the picture and says this is the way to get into heaven. Despite the fact that they did everythign right as God commanded, Jesus says this is the way to get into heaven now. To me i see this as times changing and that what once was needed to get into heaven or be closer to god was to follow the laws of judaism, then in jesus's time his code to get into heaven ahd changed because now we were introducing gentiles into the picture. I understand that revelation had ended with jews and christians alike, however, we live in a new age, a lot different from 2000 years ago. I'm not saying i think god lowered the moral code for acceptable behavior, but to say that the only accpetable manners in which to make it to heaven are what the new testament states is hard for me to accept. I do believe Jesus was the messiah, but I think that there is more opportunity out there for people than faith in christ alone. Especially since we aren't able to see the miracles he performed which were the primary reason people followed him and believed him. How else coudl he have convinced people. Thast why i think a lot of people in this forum as well as other atheist/agnostic people have a hard time believing it. For the people 2000 years ago it wasn't blind faith because they saw things happen. For us we can't prove what happened in the bible so to a certain degree it is blind faith. Thats why I think god is more compassionate about people of different beliefs
Originally posted by gordomuchacho
Repentance is important, i agree with you that people need to do that. I don't agree however that god looks on faith in jesus alone to determine who goes to heaven or not. Look at the old testament for example, the laws and rules in there were supposed to be followed by jews, there was no date set upon stopping these practices. Then Jesus comes into the picture and says this is the way to get into heaven. Despite the fact that they did everythign right as God commanded, Jesus says this is the way to get into heaven now. To me i see this as times changing and that what once was needed to get into heaven or be closer to god was to follow the laws of judaism, then in jesus's time his code to get into heaven ahd changed because now we were introducing gentiles into the picture. I understand that revelation had ended with jews and christians alike, however, we live in a new age, a lot different from 2000 years ago. I'm not saying i think god lowered the moral code for acceptable behavior, but to say that the only accpetable manners in which to make it to heaven are what the new testament states is hard for me to accept. I do believe Jesus was the messiah, but I think that there is more opportunity out there for people than faith in christ alone. Especially since we aren't able to see the miracles he performed which were the primary reason people followed him and believed him. How else coudl he have convinced people. Thast why i think a lot of people in this forum as well as other atheist/agnostic people have a hard time believing it. For the people 2000 years ago it wasn't blind faith because they saw things happen. For us we can't prove what happened in the bible so to a certain degree it is blind faith. Thats why I think god is more compassionate about people of different beliefs
Then you do not believe the Bible. You cannot have it your way. God did not send His only Son into the world to go through all that He went through for nothing. There is a reason why our good moral actions don't get us into heaven. We must come to God through His Son Jesus for...
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
We need Jesus to get to the Father..
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Then you do not believe the Bible. You cannot have it your way. God did not send His only Son into the world to go through all that He went through for nothing. There is a reason why our good moral actions don't get us into heaven. We must come to God through His Son Jesus for...[B]John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.We need Jesus to get to the Father.. [/B]
By the father you mean God? This suggests that we are separate from God. IMHO that is ridicules. We are alive and the life that we have is God. If we are separate from God, then we would not exist.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Then you do not believe the Bible. You cannot have it your way. God did not send His only Son into the world to go through all that He went through for nothing. There is a reason why our good moral actions don't get us into heaven. We must come to God through His Son Jesus for...[B]John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.We need Jesus to get to the Father.. [/B]
Well I guess your right then. To a certain degree I don't see the bible reflecting the total nature of god. I think that he goes beyond everything the bible teaches and there is much we still don't know yet. I accept jesus as the messiah, but for now I can't accept the idea that only people who believe in Jesus go to heaven.
Originally posted by Alliance
...well thats what the bible says.
I no it does and its validity is questioned, corruption by the early church leaders and up through the 16th century was very prominent. Its quite possible that many ideas were twisted from there original meaning to meet the church leaders own personal desiresor to get people to just believe in jesus. You don't have to take the bible word for word to be a christian, I use it to better my life and to worship on sundays, not to detetrmine whose goign to heaven or not. Thats not for me to decide, only god.
Originally posted by Alliance
Is it possible that the ideas were twisted from the beginning, or that there was no Jesus?Jesus is just a concept?
I have pondered that, however, I'm more convinced now because there are records from the jews of that time that say he existed even though they didn't really have any nice things to say.