Least useful...

Originally posted by Juntai
Uh, Batman founded the Outsiders in 1983, it's his team. He has been pretty important either as a backround player[earlier in the current series.] or outright member in every incarnation.

I understand that, but remember he also did it as opposition to the leauge.

I have no problem with Bats leading the outsiders, but doing so while being a member of the JLA? How does he expect to patrol Gotham when he spends all his time on team missions?

And unlike Superman he doesn't have robots to take over for him...

Or does he 😖hifty:

Originally posted by Grimm22
I understand that, but remember he also did it as opposition to the leauge.

I have no problem with Bats leading the outsiders, but doing so while being a member of the JLA? How does he expect to patrol Gotham when he spends all his time on team missions?

And unlike Superman he doesn't have robots to take over for him...

Or does he 😖hifty:

Parallel bumpage.

JLA: Batman; J'onn is a detective, Superman/GL can make tech, Diana is a good enough strategist.
FF: Thing;
New Avengers: Wolverine; Cap holds most of the skills he has already plus Logan is always trying to kill people against the Cap's orders.
Marvel Illuminati: Proffesor X; Strange has telepathy. His influence over mutants isn't more valuable than Namor's command over 3/4 of the Earth.
Inhumans: Triton; he's a liability
Astonishing X-Men: Shadowcat; Wolverine can do stealth and covers more skills than her. Beast could handle the computer and computational aspects required.
Classic Avengers: Wasp; Pym can shrink

Originally posted by Darth Martin
JLA: Batman; J'onn is a detective, Superman/GL can make tech, Diana is a good enough strategist.

None of them are as good as he is; true. But they'll suffice. When facing Galactus or Darkseid, I'd rather have Aquaman than him.

What's to stop them from calling him up when they need. I love Batman as much as the next person, but be logical here. He is FAR from useless. But the others can compensate for his loss on a day to day basis. If they need his expertise, why not simply call him. Because on the majority of their issues they'd need more of Diana or Arthur's raw power than Bruce's mind(Superman, J'onn, Wally, Diana) and resources(Diana, Hal, Aquaman). They aren't as good as him in his areas of expertise and specialties, but they can suffice without him.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
JLA: Batman; J'onn is a detective, Superman/GL can make tech, Diana is a good enough strategist.

now things are gonna get nasty

Wonder Woman is the least useful character.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
JLA: Batman; J'onn is a detective, Superman/GL can make tech, Diana is a good enough strategist.
FF: Thing;
New Avengers: Wolverine; Cap holds most of the skills he has already plus Logan is always trying to kill people against the Cap's orders.
Marvel Illuminati: Proffesor X; Strange has telepathy. His influence over mutants isn't more valuable than Namor's command over 3/4 of the Earth.
Inhumans: Triton; he's a liability
Astonishing X-Men: Shadowcat; Wolverine can do stealth and covers more skills than her. Beast could handle the computer and computational aspects required.
Classic Avengers: Wasp; Pym can shrink

I literally disagree with every single one of those ✅

...Except maybe Triton, never really cared for the Inhumans....

Love to hear your reasoning.

But cut me some slack. The FF is hard to choose between Johnny and Ben. Torch can fly and Sue has durability, striking power, and Reed caqn amp himself(nowhere near Ben though) so.......sorry big guy/

Batman has been gone through by Draco, Val, and Accel.

Astonishing X-Men is hard too.

But, who is more useless than Wasp? Gotta hear you explanation for Xavier too. After all, Namor is a mutant.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
But, who is more useless than Wasp?

she's easily the hotest one though... 😄

Originally posted by Darth Martin
JLA: Batman; J'onn is a detective, Superman/GL can make tech, Diana is a good enough strategist.

J'onn is not a detective compared to Bruce, Superman and GL don't own a corporation with fingers in pies worldwide, Diana is fantastic strategist, but she doesn't think 12 steps ahead like Bruce does. Batman's super power is preparation. If you want to talk about pragmatism, he is quite possibly the most useful member of the JLA. It's between him and Superman in my opinion. The only reason Superman might have an edge over Batman in terms of usefulness is due to intergalatic perception of the Man of Steel. Granted people can match Batman or surpass him in one area, but not in others and nobody in the entire DCU is as prepared for ever eventuality as well as Batman. It's become part of his character in the last couple of decades.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
FF: Thing;

Ben provides the light hearted emotion and friendship angle to the team. He brings his own form of morale. I'm not a big fan of the character but from a writer's viewpoint, he's probably a dream to write, especially if seen from a comedic, fun loving angle.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
New Avengers: Wolverine; Cap holds most of the skills he has already plus Logan is always trying to kill people against the Cap's orders.

Actually in the first storyline of New Avengers, it was for that very reason Logan was put on the team, they need a dirty ops guy. See the conversation between Steve and Tony at the end of the first NA storyline.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Marvel Illuminati: Proffesor X; Strange has telepathy. His influence over mutants isn't more valuable than Namor's command over 3/4 of the Earth.

If you ask anyone in the MU who is the most influential figure in Mutant affairs, their answer will be Charles Xavier. The illuminati is supposed to represent each aspect of the MU. Namor may be the first mutant in comic history but in the MU, how is that useful, especially when Xavier is available?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Inhumans: Triton; he's a liability.

Yeah. Don't really like the Inhumans, or Triton.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Astonishing X-Men: Shadowcat; Wolverine can do stealth and covers more skills than her. Beast could handle the computer and computational aspects required.

This was dealt with in the first arc of Whedon's run on Astonishing. Shadowcat can not only do what you already mentioned with Logan and Hank, but also she represented public perception of the team. I think Emma described her as something like "The non-threatening Ariel or Sprite or whatever you're calling yourself these days."

Plus, how is the ability to phase, not incredibly useful not only to a team, but just simply, anywhere or anytime?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Classic Avengers: Wasp; Pym can shrink

Maybe I agree with this one. She doesn't seem to provide much. In the absence of Cap she's supposed to be a great leader. I suppose she's like the Thing in terms of providing emotional elements to the team, useful for writers. But I think you might be onto to something here.

I don't think "adds a light-hearted element" is a very good argument for who is the least useful.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't think "adds a light-hearted element" is a very good argument for who is the least useful.

It depends on for whom they are supposed to be of use. For Ben Grimm on the FF, being light hearted might not be great for punching Doom's face in, but it might help the writer come up with some quip like "It's clobberin time!"

Seriously though, if you look at all JLA arcs as a whole, it's pretty laughable to say that Batman is the least useful. Basically the only argument against him is "ZOMG HE'S JUST A HUMANZZ!!!!1@"

Lulz.

Originally posted by willRules
1.J'onn is not a detective compared to Bruce, Superman and GL don't own a corporation with fingers in pies worldwide, Diana is fantastic strategist, but she doesn't think 12 steps ahead like Bruce does. Batman's super power is preparation. If you want to talk about pragmatism, [B]he is quite possibly the most useful member of the JLA. It's between him and Superman in my opinion. The only reason Superman might have an edge over Batman in terms of usefulness is due to intergalatic perception of the Man of Steel. Granted people can match Batman or surpass him in one area, but not in others and nobody in the entire DCU is as prepared for ever eventuality as well as Batman. It's become part of his character in the last couple of decades.

2.Ben provides the light hearted emotion and friendship angle to the team. He brings his own form of morale. I'm not a big fan of the character but from a writer's viewpoint, he's probably a dream to write, especially if seen from a comedic, fun loving angle.

3.Actually in the first storyline of New Avengers, it was for that very reason Logan was put on the team, they need a dirty ops guy. See the conversation between Steve and Tony at the end of the first NA storyline.

4.If you ask anyone in the MU who is the most influential figure in Mutant affairs, their answer will be Charles Xavier. The illuminati is supposed to represent each aspect of the MU. Namor may be the first mutant in comic history but in the MU, how is that useful, especially when Xavier is available?

5.This was dealt with in the first arc of Whedon's run on Astonishing. Shadowcat can not only do what you already mentioned with Logan and Hank, but also she represented public perception of the team. I think Emma described her as something like "The non-threatening Ariel or Sprite or whatever you're calling yourself these days."

Plus, how is the ability to phase, not incredibly useful not only to a team, but just simply, anywhere or anytime? [/B]

1.Hate to be an ass, but this was covered pretty well. I was totally against Batman being labeled "least useful" as well. But a couple of posters broke it down in detail back in the first couple pages of the thread.
2.We all know it's hard to break the FF up. One has to go. Sadly, it's Ben. Read my post for my reasoning.
3.I own the book: New Avengers Vol. 1 "Breakout". Okay, they had that conversation. It still doesn't change the fact that Cap is constantly, throughout the whole run, telling Wolverine to stand down in combat or after/before the mission warning him not to kill anyone. His skill and ability are unquestionable but he brings internal conflict and upsets the established order. Basically, he loves his teamates, but does what he wants. Although, I could see Cage being less useful but when you have Spider-Man, Cap, and Wolverine all on one team......I don't count Ronin. Cage atleast brings solid durability and strength.
4.That doesn't particularly mean they're going to follow Xavier. He just provides an internal point of view from dealing with so many of his kind. As I said, Namor is a mutant. Currently, Xavier is powerless. And even if he did have his telepathy, does not Strange already have that.
5.I see your point here.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
1.Hate to be an ass, but this was covered pretty well. I was totally against Batman being labeled "least useful" as well. But a couple of posters broke it down in detail back in the first couple pages of the thread.

No. The majority of their arguments are based on speculative reasoning, and ignore on-panel fact. Through his tech/knowledge/savvy, Batman has gotten them out of multiple jams, probably moreso than any other individual member.

i'd say, as of now, charlie's been made pretty redundant in the overall scheme of things. i mean, cyclops has more leverage than he ever did at this point, i seems. if they were to reform the illuminati, i'd say he should be on it in prof. x's place.

everyone else i don't really have a point against. apart from maybe triton, but, i'm not much of an inhumans fan anyway.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
1.Hate to be an ass, but this was covered pretty well. I was totally against Batman being labeled "least useful" as well. But a couple of posters broke it down in detail back in the first couple pages of the thread.

This one could go on for ever, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the earlier posts weren't convincing enough. 🙂

Originally posted by Darth Martin
2.We all know it's hard to break the FF up. One has to go. Sadly, it's Ben. Read my post for my reasoning.

I think Ben may be perhaps the least useful just in terms of powerset (although that's debatable) but not from a writing standpoint. The FF are kind of an equal necessity, being a family unit.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
3.I own the book: New Avengers Vol. 1 "Breakout". Okay, they had that conversation. It still doesn't change the fact that Cap is constantly, throughout the whole run, telling Wolverine to stand down in combat or after/before the mission warning him not to kill anyone. His skill and ability are unquestionable but he brings internal conflict and upsets the established order. Basically, he loves his teamates, but does what he wants. Although, I could see Cage being less useful but when you have Spider-Man, Cap, and Wolverine all on one team......I don't count Ronin. Cage atleast brings solid durability and strength.

But for me that does make Ronin the least useful, not Wolverine. The characters seem to think Wolverine is useful as a killer as shown by the end of "Breakout" and from a writing standpoint, Wolverine books sell, that's pretty useful, moreso than say, Ronin, and I do count Ronin.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
4.That doesn't particularly mean they're going to follow Xavier. He just provides an internal point of view from dealing with so many of his kind. As I said, Namor is a mutant. Currently, Xavier is powerless. And even if he did have his telepathy, does not Strange already have that.

For me the Illuminati wasn't really about what powerset they could bring to the table, rather their ingenuity and leadership skills and representation of their respective regions of the MU. Namor represents Atlantis better than any others there, so he is useful in that respect, for me the least useful would be Blackbolt. He might be incredibly powerful, but he represented a minority group that, unlike the X-men or mutantkind in general, were so reclusive they often weren't even on the same planet. By comparison, what Xavier brought to the group was the representation of one of the most significant factions of the MU throughout Marvel history. I reckon that's pretty useful for a cabal organising the course of events.

Yet again, I think it's a case of agreeing to disagree, mate 😄

Still Wonder Woman: Batman is a better strategist, Superman is stronger, Flash is Faster, and Martian Manhunter is just, well, Martian Manhunter. She is the Namor to the Hulk in the Defenders: Great, but there is better.

As for the Fantastic Four, I have to vote against Johnny. Thing is usually the only, well, thing, that kept the FF from getting a brutal, brutal ass kicking. On the other hand, everything that Johnny try the "Supernova", it fells. Sue is just plainly the most powerful in the team, and Reed is just Reed.