balrogs maia?

where were we? thefallen544 and I are trying to find proof to the statement that th balrogs and the dragons are maiar. cause many websites say so, but I can't see how they prove it.

Balrogs are Maia.
Dragons are creations of Morgoth and are not Maia.

Originally posted by vanice
where were we? thefallen544 and I are trying to find proof to the statement that th balrogs and the dragons are maiar. cause many websites say so, but I can't see how they prove it.

Balrogs are Maiar spirits, Dragons aren't. It's in the Silmirallion

Well I am sure the Balrogs are Maia and whilst not to discourage you of your search, it is you who are looking for the proof. I have already put forth my claim.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Balrogs are Maiar spirits, Dragons aren't. It's in the Silmirallion

where?

I am still reading through this myself but it might help you. Note that I am unable to post links yet, so just combine the two parts

http:

//tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB.html

Originally posted by vanice
where?

Page 23, "Valaquenta". The Balrogs were Maia spirits of fire who were corrupted by Melkor in the beginning.

well, I still haven't checked the eanglish verson, but the sweadish translations doesn't say so. It only says that balrogs are dreadful spirits of fire sudused by morgoth. and it's in the chapter about the enemy, not about maia. Il'l report back whan I've checked the original text.

well, I still haven't checked the English version, but the Swedish translations doesn't say so. It only says that balrogs are dreadful spirits of fire seduced by morgoth. and it's in the chapter about the enemy, not about maia. I'll report back when I've checked the original text.

Well until the ents, elves, dwarves and humans were created (and all the offshots thereof) everything that was not strictly speaking nonsentient flora and fauna was vala or maia.

Page 29 in the Swedish translation of the Silm Vanice. Theres proof that Balrogs are maias.

No there isn't!

Nope, checked page 29 in the Swedish translation, it ain't there. Damn now there are two different sources given which are both false, can't someone give any proof? I'm not really conserned about this matter, it's just that people here seem to take anything they find on the internet as a source...

Now, you have inspired me to reread the Silmarillion this weekend...

Anyway, before I get there... I'll ask the following question. If the Balrogs are not Maia, what are they?

All of the Ainur (spirits) were created by Illuvatar before Ea was . The Ainur which entered Ea after its creation all became either Valar or Maiar. There were no spirits of any other sort created by Illuvatar other than the Ainur.

The Balrogs are not among the Children of Illuvatar, they certainly were not Ents or Dwarves... what else was there besides those that were created by Illuvatar or the Valar?

It is also clearly stated that the spirts of fire were seduced from existing spirits not created.

So clearly the spirits of fire who became the Balrogs were among the Maiar whom Melkor seduced (presumably from the vast horde of greedy Maiar among Aule's people, lol, it seems like Aule got the worst pick so to speak).

Originally posted by vanice
No there isn't!

For of the maiar many were drawn to his splendour in days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness, and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in middle-earth were called the BALROGS, demons of terror.

Where exactly in that line does it say ANYTHING about Maia?

so a spirit and a maia is the same thing? forget about it...

Originally posted by it_wasn't_me
For of the maiar many were drawn to his splendour in days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness, and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in middle-earth were called the BALROGS, demons of terror.

let me explain this to you.. this only says that many maiar were drawn to morgoth. and OTHERS too. dreadful among THESE spirits were the valaraukar.
so basically this doesn't mean anything.

other what?

Given the nature of the word other and the construction of the English language both the words many and other refer to the beings identified from the prepositional phrase "For of the maiar".

Originally posted by vanice
so a spirit and a maia is the same thing? forget about it...

let me explain this to you.. this only says that many maiar were drawn to morgoth. and OTHERS too. dreadful among THESE spirits were the valaraukar.
so basically this doesn't mean anything.

For the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

It means that among the Maiar (who are known as spirits) the Valaraukar were also drawn to him aka Balrogs. Maiar Spirits aren't just called spirits.

No one should condemn dragons to not being of the Maiar, as Tolkien himself battled over similar topics later in his life....

Cf. the late essays given at the end of Morgoth's Ring. There, it is found that Tolkien himself had trouble accepting that Morgoth could create anything that was alive after his Fall, and it is thus likely that Glaurung, the first dragon, was a Maia in sauric-form, who then begat his descendents....although this might contradict the fact that Tolkien removed the concept of the Children of the Valar....