Re: balrogs maia?
Originally posted by vanice
where were we? thefallen544 and I are trying to find proof to the statement that th balrogs and the dragons are maiar. cause many websites say so, but I can't see how they prove it.
it says it in the silmarilion that balrogs are maia (i hope i spelt that right)
Well first I would have to point out that Spirits are different in this case to wraiths and ghosts. I only point this out because it is relevant to my point, Spirits are generally those of the higer order Valar, Maiar and so forth.
In my version of the Sil page 31 under the Headings "Of the Maiar" and "Of the Enemy" under the Chapter "Valaquenta" Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar. Just so we are very clear we are talking totally about the higher order, and now I quote.
Regarding Melkor and his followers
"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards into his service with lies and trecherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-Earth were called Balrogs, demons of terror"
My anaylsis follows
Firstly they are referred directly to as Spirits under chapters and headings concerning directly with the higher order, they were considered Dreadful among Melkors other servants of which we know included Maiar from the text. They thusly would have to be Maiar themselves to better others. Indeed the being known as Gothmog was a Lieutenant of Melkor I do not believe Melkor would have a "lower" being as a Lieutenant.
Lastly "In Middle-Earth were called Balrogs" Tolkein was always very specific about what he wrote and how he wrote it, to me this suggests that they did not come from within Middle-Earth in the first place. The logical place they would have come from would be the same place all Valar and Maiar came from, placing them firmly in the ranks of the Maiar and the higher or "Angelic" order.
Originally posted by Slyððering
Whether or not the Valaraukar/Balrogs were Maiar (that is, "angelic" beings of the same manner of the Valar) should not be debated, as many have noted it is explicitly stated in The Silmarillion (and elsewhere) that they were indeed Maiar.
No the only thing found so far in the silmarillion says that many maiar were drawn to melkor before and after he became "evil" and many other "things", spirits and such. Among them were the valaraukar the moast powerful. I don't think every siprit in Middle-Earth is a maia.
You say that it's stated "elswhere". Where? If you mean internet sites lioke wikipedia you should know that anyone can wright on them so you should read them with criticism...
[b]"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror. Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel."
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Edlar called Sauron
So why is Sauron considered a spirit but yet with the Balrogs they have to be something over then a maia? It seems that you are just trying to refuse the fact that Balrogs are maia spirits for one reason or another
This is like pounding ones head into a brick wall, lol.
That sentence states explicitly that the spirits of fire who became Balrogs, were Maiar.The sentence structure links them that way. Had the "and" right before "others been omitted and the "Others" started a new sentence then it would mean that the "Others" would not be Maiar, but because of the compound, "others" the impersonal pronoun refers back to "For many (of the Maiar)" .
The prepositional phrase "of the Maiar" because of the sentence structure becomes descriptive of of any pronoun that refers back to "the many".
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Furthermore, only Illuvatar can create spirits and until the Children of Iluvatar awaken, there are no other spirits on Ea. All of the spirits existent prior to the waking of the Children, were Ainur who were created prior to the creation of Ea. Of the Ainur who went into the world afterwards, they were all Valar or Maiar.
For the Balrogs not to be Maiar they would have to be Valar or among the Children of Illuvatar, there are no other spirits.