Creation vs Evolution

Started by Imperial_Samura221 pages
Originally posted by FeceMan
Statement: Yet another fallacious representation of Christianity.

Yes, because there really aren't Evangelical groups of Christians who have more in common with a hall booked for a pyramid scheme launch then a group of people concerned about personal religious piety.

"Oh here, take some pamphlets, join us, your soul will be saved, and then you can go out and spread the word, just as we are told we must in the Bible and bring the Truth to all those without the light hallelujah!"

And you would be aware I was not talking about Christianity in a whole, but rather a sector of it. In fact I though I was giving props to Christians who don't take evangelism to absurd, pyramid scheme heights.

Unless you can argue that those hard line evangelical groups don't have anything in common attitude and marketing wise with a pyramid scheme I fear your post is pointless.

Statement: While evangelism is commanded in the Bible, it is not used for any type of personal gain.

Statement: The purpose of evangelism is not to save souls but to bring souls to salvation.

Declaration: Salvation cannot be forced, and it cannot be sold.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Statement: While evangelism is commanded in the Bible, it is not used for any type of personal gain.

Statement: The purpose of evangelism is not to save souls but to bring souls to salvation.

Declaration: Salvation cannot be forced, and it cannot be sold.

Tch. Note I said "like pyramid schemes" not "they are pyramid schemes." As in "they approach evangelism like a pyramid scheme, converting so others can convert and so on." You are failing to disprove that.

And if I am not mistaken hard-line evangelism is big money. There are financial benefits for the people at the top to have lot of converting going on. Otherwise all these TV Evangelists wouldn't be such big news when it turns out they have been funneling funds into golden slippers or trinkets for their prostitutes or whatever.

Statement: FeceMan did not say it wasn't used for personal gain, only that the evangelism as commanded is not to be used for personal gain.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Statement: FeceMan did not say it wasn't used for personal gain, only that the evangelism as commanded is not to be used for personal gain.

Ergo the fact I singled out a type of evangelism which I don't percieve as commanded. Ergo I mentioned not all Christians going about it the wrong way like those that act like it is some sort of pyramid scheme.

Thus you confirm the point I was making.

How does evolution work?

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/070816_gm_evolution.html

Where did life come from?

http://www.livescience.com/space/scienceastronomy/070816_life_comets.html

I found this Dawkins quote recently. I'm not saying it's my own view (actually, it is) but merely quoting it because it amused me:

In any developing science there are disagreements. But scientists — and here is what separates real scientists from the pseudoscientists of the school of intelligent design — always know what evidence it would take to change their minds. One thing all real scientists agree upon is the fact of evolution itself. It is a fact that we are cousins of gorillas, kangaroos, starfish, and bacteria. Evolution is as much a fact as the heat of the sun. It is not a theory, and for pity’s sake, let’s stop confusing the philosophically naive by calling it so. Evolution is a fact.

Re: Creation vs Evolution

Originally posted by ~Flamboyant~
Sorry if this has been done, but which do you beleive in and why?

I personally beleive in the Evolution theory, because it has basically been scientifically proven. Especially by the Hard-Weinberg Principle.

Evolution isn't completely a solid theory. There are still many gaps and unanswered questions. I do believe the process works in nature as far as genetic changes in organisms. Evolution has no effect on my Faith.

Many "Evolutionists" refuse to acknowledge that pure Evolutionary Theory where life just "happened" goes against certain scientific laws such as "something from nothing". A single living cell is as complex as a modern day factory. Imagine how complex a living animal has to be? Using the "life just happened" theory we can assume somewhere in the Universe that there are cars that just happened to be formed. A Human is infinitely more complex than a car. Okay, if the car analogy too much then let's try a hammer that just happened? I mean, if life just happened then isn't it plausible to assume that everyday objects may have just happened? My point is that life is far more complex than most acknowledge and by all counts from the mathematical and digital qualities of DNA to the almost perfect balance of the way life works shows an intelligence imho.

Now, if the Evolutionists are correct then why did life just happen? What use is life to something as large as a planet let alone the Universe? In Nature, everything has a purpose. It's the Circle of Life Simba. But what's the point? Life has no impact on a Planet. It seems that most planets, save Earth so far, do quite well without microbes, algae, flora and fauna. Maybe life has a purpose which science has yet to grasp but many Religions have already answered.

Now, I see some people like to say that the burden of proof falls upon those of Faith. Key word is Faith. I suggest they look up the word Faith. I don't need total evidence to prove anything. You can't use science or any other Earthly tool to prove something that is beyond any of us. I can think outside the box and try to grasp the possibilities of existence. My point of view is that life is very complex and Evolution doesn't explain how life started. Something from nothing? That would violate scientific tenet.

Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution

Originally posted by Badabing
Evolution isn't completely a solid theory. There are still many gaps and unanswered questions. I do believe the process works in nature as far as genetic changes in organisms. Evolution has no effect on my Faith.

Many "Evolutionists" refuse to acknowledge that pure Evolutionary Theory where life just "happened" goes against certain scientific laws such as "something from nothing". A single living cell is as complex as a modern day factory. Imagine how complex a living animal has to be? Using the "life just happened" theory we can assume somewhere in the Universe that there are cars that just happened to be formed. A Human is infinitely more complex than a car. Okay, if the car analogy too much then let's try a hammer that just happened? I mean, if life just happened then isn't it plausible to assume that everyday objects may have just happened? My point is that life is far more complex than most acknowledge and by all counts from the mathematical and digital qualities of DNA to the almost perfect balance of the way life works shows an intelligence imho.

Now, if the Evolutionists are correct then why did life just happen? What use is life to something as large as a planet let alone the Universe? In Nature, everything has a purpose. It's the Circle of Life Simba. But what's the point? Life has no impact on a Planet. It seems that most planets, save Earth so far, do quite well without microbes, algae, flora and fauna. Maybe life has a purpose which science has yet to grasp but many Religions have already answered.

Evolution explains complexity from simplicity. It does not explain creation from nothing. You are mistaking the theory of evolution with abiogenesis. That is all.

Life doesn't need to 'serve a purpose', and personifying Nature into something that "always has a purpose" is dangerous.

Evolution explains complexity from simplicity very elegantly. Also, the purpose of any life (plant, animal, bacteria, etc.) is for the replicating genes (and memes for humans) that created them. The reason things seem to coexist in apparent harmony is because individual species, and the interrelationship between species, has to reach an Evolutionary Stable State (ESS) or the species goes extinct. This has happened countless times to species, or specific strands of a species whose characteristics did not mesh with 'Nature', until a reasonably stable entity (life as we know it on Earth) was created.

The only reason we have life and other planets (largely) don't is because we had the right chemical conditions for replicating entites to form.

So none of that is anywhere near a problem for evolution.

As for "something from nothing", like manatee said it's not a biological question, and you seem to be beating around the Thomas Aquinas bush of a cosmological argument for God, even if that's not what you're calling it. To that I would say: A universe can't self-generate but a creator of a universe can? How? If it is possible for people to believe in a self-generating substance, why can't the universe be like that? It begs the question to say there needs to be a Creator, because logically the creator would need a Creator, and so on. And even if there is a creator, it isn't necessarily any sort of religious creator, and the fact that evolution remains a proven fact suggests that the creator isn't doing anything to intervene in pure scientific, deterministic progression of the universe.

I'm posing questions for science and religion. People seem to take certain points and run with them while ignoring other points. No where does evolution explain how life started, it explains changes in current living organisms.

Evolution doesn't explain something from nothing or life from lifelessness. There are many holes in the theory of evolution, I'm trying to explore some answers. Stating a theory as absolute fact while ignoring discrepancies can also be dangerous. This is a Creation and Evolution thread and I'm not evading, avoiding or sidestepping anything. Again, I'm simply asking questions.

The whole reasoning behind the belief in a "Creator" is he/she would be beyond the bonds of what we think of time and space. Now, if people have faith that life, in all its complexities, just occurred then I don't have a problem with it. I will just assume that somewhere in the Universe there are planets with complete tool sets, working doors and pencils that just happened.

That fact that life exists is a wonder. I'm just asking why it exists. The convergence of chemicals, proteins, amino acids and bio-electrical energy in the right place at the right time to form something as complex as a living cell just doesn't work for me. Again, the Universe would carry on quite well without life so why bother? What was the action which caused the reaction of life?

Many scientists agree that the building blocks for life appear to have an intelligent design due to the language and mathematics of DNA. I'm not saying that in this entire Universe that it is impossible for life to just be a random occurrence or that aliens planted the seeds of life. I have faith in the Judea/Christian framework where there is a Creator which gave life.

Originally posted by Badabing
I'm posing questions for science and religion. People seem to take certain points and run with them while ignoring other points. No where does evolution explain how life started, it explains changes in current living organisms.

Evolution doesn't explain something from nothing or life from lifelessness. There are many holes in the theory of evolution, I'm trying to explore some answers. Stating a theory as absolute fact while ignoring discrepancies can also be dangerous. This is a Creation and Evolution thread and I'm not evading, avoiding or sidestepping anything. Again, I'm simply asking questions.

The whole reasoning behind the belief in a "Creator" is he/she would be beyond the bonds of what we think of time and space. Now, if people have faith that life, in all its complexities, just occurred then I don't have a problem with it. I will just assume that somewhere in the Universe there are planets with complete tool sets, working doors and pencils that just happened.

That fact that life exists is a wonder. I'm just asking why it exists. The convergence of chemicals, proteins, amino acids and bio-electrical energy in the right place at the right time to form something as complex as a living cell just doesn't work for me. Again, the Universe would carry on quite well without life so why bother? What was the action which caused the reaction of life?

Many scientists agree that the building blocks for life appear to have an intelligent design due to the language and mathematics of DNA. I'm not saying that in this entire Universe that it is impossible for life to just be a random occurrence or that aliens planted the seeds of life. I have faith in the Judea/Christian framework where there is a Creator which gave life.

Check out this thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t454575.html

It seems that life is easier to make then we first thought.

Originally posted by Badabing
I'm posing questions for science and religion. People seem to take certain points and run with them while ignoring other points. No where does evolution explain how life started, it explains changes in current living organisms.

Yes it does. I'll try to summarize it, but finding out more about evolutionary natural selection is the best way to learn.

Molecules and base materials coexisted in the cliche 'primordial soup' in which "life" began. Through random interaction over thousands of years, they would attach to one another to form simple entities. Eventually, some of these entities had the properties that they could attch or attract the same substances to them. This would, in effect, make copies of the original entity. These were the original replicators, archaic predecessors of DNA. Other strands formed unqiue replicators.

Through mutation (imperfect copying of these replicators, which happens through natural error) the replicators gradually changed. And in replicators where the changes were of a certain type, they tended to exist longer. For example, a replicator that mutated accidentally into something that could break down other replicators by forming stronger bonds with the materials than the original replicator, that entity would tend to do very well because it could then use the materials from other replicators to make more copies of itself. Here we see the first steps of complexification in a completely natural process. I hesitate to call it "life" at this stage, since there is no conscious awareness yet, but it is the origins of what we consider modern life. The replicators aren't aware of anything, but they seem to 'compete' for survival due to the nature of their construction.

And if the mutation wasn't helpful like that one, the replicator tended to die...natural selection. In this way, the "good" replicators tended to survive, which finds its modern correlation in particular DNA surviving. If a DNA strand induced cancer at age 3, the person will generally die...that gene won't last long in the gene pool because the child won't reproduce to pass along the gene, and the gene will die off, while more productive genes will continue to survive. This is the base for "survival of the fittest" which has very little to do with martial warfare like we often apply it to. To the contrary, warlike tendencies caused by genes may be on their way out, albeit over a span of thousands of years.

Again, over millions of years, this complexification in replicators increased. At some point, via steady random mutation, replicators became able to bond with proteins, making a protein wall around themselves for protection. Thus the first "bodies", and something akin to single-celled organisms.

Extrapolate this process over millions of years (billions?) and we have a continuous complexification caused by the traits of our genes that create us (their "survival machines"😉 to ensure their genetic survival, though the genes themselves aren't conscious of this of course...they merely are constructed in such a way that they seem to act on behalf of their survival. We aren't conscious of this either, but are intelligent by-products of the "arms race" that has been held by genetic material for thousands upon thousands of years.

I of course skipped some steps in the middle there, but that is for brevity's sake. My point, hopefully, is clear. I don't see how that fails to describe "life from non-life", though the distinction between the two is generally less clear in my mind that in most, since we aren't fundamentally different from, say, a virus or amoeba....just exponentially more complex.

...

If I left anything out, anyone can feel free to clarify or add to my words, or ask me questions if they disagree with something or don't understand aspects of it.

Originally posted by Badabing
Evolution doesn't explain something from nothing or life from lifelessness. There are many holes in the theory of evolution, I'm trying to explore some answers.

Short answers:

<>Evolution is not a theory, its an observed fact.

<>Natural Selection does not explain the origin of life, nor does it try to.

<>There are FEW holes in the theory of Natural Selection, none that have promted a major concern for the theory. (For example, we don't know what causes gravity ((we at least have a mechanism for natural selection)) and you don't hear people b*tching about the evil theory of gravity and how they don't believe in it)

<>There are viable theories that explain the origin of life.

<>If you think stuff "randomly" comes together to create life...you have an exceptionally limited knowledge of chemistry. Stuff does not "randomly" happen.

I believe in both. As a scientist, I believe in the evolution. Yet, I do believe in some sort of power, or force one might say, that created it all. I'm not really sure whether I can believe that the big bang just happened. But I won't say that I'm 100 % right. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm not.

Regards, Yvonne

Originally posted by Alliance
<>There are FEW holes in the theory of Natural Selection, none that have promted a major concern for the theory. (For example, we don't know what causes gravity ((we at least have a mechanism for natural selection)) and you don't hear people b*tching about the evil theory of gravity and how they don't believe in it)
I like that 👆

Yeah. Its amazing that if an observation takes longer than 5 seconds people magically get confused on what constitutes scientific proof.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yes it does. I'll try to summarize it, but finding out more about evolutionary natural selection is the best way to learn.

Molecules and base materials coexisted in the cliche 'primordial soup' in which "life" began. Through random interaction over thousands of years, they would attach to one another to form simple entities. Eventually, some of these entities had the properties that they could attch or attract the same substances to them. This would, in effect, make copies of the original entity. These were the original replicators, archaic predecessors of DNA. Other strands formed unqiue replicators.

Through mutation (imperfect copying of these replicators, which happens through natural error) the replicators gradually changed. And in replicators where the changes were of a certain type, they tended to exist longer. For example, a replicator that mutated accidentally into something that could break down other replicators by forming stronger bonds with the materials than the original replicator, that entity would tend to do very well because it could then use the materials from other replicators to make more copies of itself. Here we see the first steps of complexification in a completely natural process. I hesitate to call it "life" at this stage, since there is no conscious awareness yet, but it is the origins of what we consider modern life. The replicators aren't aware of anything, but they seem to 'compete' for survival due to the nature of their construction.

And if the mutation wasn't helpful like that one, the replicator tended to die...natural selection. In this way, the "good" replicators tended to survive, which finds its modern correlation in particular DNA surviving. If a DNA strand induced cancer at age 3, the person will generally die...that gene won't last long in the gene pool because the child won't reproduce to pass along the gene, and the gene will die off, while more productive genes will continue to survive. This is the base for "survival of the fittest" which has very little to do with martial warfare like we often apply it to. To the contrary, warlike tendencies caused by genes may be on their way out, albeit over a span of thousands of years.

Again, over millions of years, this complexification in replicators increased. At some point, via steady random mutation, replicators became able to bond with proteins, making a protein wall around themselves for protection. Thus the first "bodies", and something akin to single-celled organisms.

Extrapolate this process over millions of years (billions?) and we have a continuous complexification caused by the traits of our genes that create us (their "survival machines"😉 to ensure their genetic survival, though the genes themselves aren't conscious of this of course...they merely are constructed in such a way that they seem to act on behalf of their survival. We aren't conscious of this either, but are intelligent by-products of the "arms race" that has been held by genetic material for thousands upon thousands of years.

I of course skipped some steps in the middle there, but that is for brevity's sake. My point, hopefully, is clear. I don't see how that fails to describe "life from non-life", though the distinction between the two is generally less clear in my mind that in most, since we aren't fundamentally different from, say, a virus or amoeba....just exponentially more complex.

Thanks for the explanation but I have knowledge of the theory. If you read my entire post then you'd see I already made a concession that evolution was possible. Again, people seem to focus on one aspect of a post and run with it. My point of view, belief if you will is that doesn't answer the why. One cell is very complex. My view says that it's just as plausible that a Creator is responsible for life as is a random occurrence. I choose to have faith in a Creator. I'm not too sure why this is such a problem with some people. You have faith that evolution is responsible even though the theory has holes in it. In my opinion, evolution and Creation are parts of the same equation. One fills in the answers from another.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

If I left anything out, anyone can feel free to clarify or add to my words, or ask me questions if they disagree with something or don't understand aspects of it.
I'm not sure how to take that last remark Digi....🤨 I've already told you before that I'm not a kid and I'm well educated.

Originally posted by Badabing
Thanks for the explanation but I have knowledge of the theory. If you read my entire post then you'd see I already made a concession that evolution was possible. Again, people seem to focus on one aspect of a post and run with it. My point of view, belief if you will is that doesn't answer the why. One cell is very complex. My view says that it's just as plausible that a Creator is responsible for life as is a random occurrence. I choose to have faith in a Creator. I'm not too sure why this is such a problem with some people. You have faith that evolution is responsible even though the theory has holes in it. In my opinion, evolution and Creation are parts of the same equation. One fills in the answers from another.

I'm not sure how to take that last remark Digi....🤨 I've already told you before that I'm not a kid and I'm well educated.

It is not just as plausible that a Creator is responsible. If us humans can one day create life, then life is easy to come by and maybe on every inhabitable planet in the universe.