Creation vs Evolution

Started by Cartesian Doubt221 pages
Originally posted by Bardock42
Fair enough, what do you think of evolution?

Like the discoveries made by Copernicus and Galileo (The opposite to what i mentioned in my previous post), there is no Hard verifiable evidence to suggest that evolution occurred, i.e. it is yet to be seen in the lab. But there are a heck of a LOT of things that have happened that, i do not require Hard evidence to prove that they occurred; The Battle of Waterloo, Aging-court, The Industrial revolution could have potentially never occurred, but its absurd to reject all the circumstantial evidence that suggests otherwise. So yes I'm a FIRM believer in evolution, and in about 99 % sure that it occurred. Mind you I'm only 99.99 % certain that my body actually exists, and I'm only 99.999999999999999999999 % that mathematics is correct.

Originally posted by queeq
The Norris faith is expanding.
damn right

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Like the discoveries made by Copernicus and Galileo (The opposite to what i mentioned in my previous post), there is no Hard verifiable evidence to suggest that evolution occurred, i.e. it is yet to be seen in the lab. But there are a heck of a LOT of things that have happened that, i do not require Hard evidence to prove that they occurred; The Battle of Waterloo, Aging-court, The Industrial revolution could have potentially never occurred, but its absurd to reject all the circumstantial evidence that suggests otherwise. So yes I'm a FIRM believer in evolution, and in about 99 % sure that it occurred. Mind you I'm only 99.99 % certain that my body actually exists, and I'm only 99.999999999999999999999 % that mathematics is correct.
actually it has been observed in a lab. the fruitfly experiment. ever heard of it?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
actually it has been observed in a lab. the fruitfly experiment. ever heard of it?

No i haven't ! 🙂

Originally posted by chickenlover98
actually it has been observed in a lab. the fruitfly experiment. ever heard of it?

If I recall correctly, no beneficial mutations were observed.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
actually it has been observed in a lab. the fruitfly experiment. ever heard of it?
The problem with your assumption chickenlover is that the "proof" you give is merely speculation based on the assumptions of Evolution; not proven. Also a good thing to look at would be the fruit fly experiment mentioned earlier: these flies went through thousands of generations and were bombarded with radiation to induce mutation. Now, mutation did occur; but it was only on the phenotypic level adding new legs, arms etc. Never did they speciate or even gain a helpful mutation. In fact, all mutations that were observed were harmful or lethal to the life of the fly. This makes the chances so astronomical that random mutations caused speciation that the suggested 4.5 billion years the Earth has been around is merely a small, minute fraction of the time necessary for it to take place.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
If I recall correctly, no beneficial mutations were observed.
im not quite sure what the exact mutations were but it was confirmed that mutations did occur, which proves evolution and natural selection

sister patterson from the show "i love new york" is proof enough of evolution

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Like the discoveries made by Copernicus and Galileo (The opposite to what i mentioned in my previous post), there is no Hard verifiable evidence to suggest that evolution occurred, i.e. it is yet to be seen in the lab. But there are a heck of a LOT of things that have happened that, i do not require Hard evidence to prove that they occurred; The Battle of Waterloo, Aging-court, The Industrial revolution could have potentially never occurred, but its absurd to reject all the circumstantial evidence that suggests otherwise. So yes I'm a FIRM believer in evolution, and in about 99 % sure that it occurred. Mind you I'm only 99.99 % certain that my body actually exists, and I'm only 99.999999999999999999999 % that mathematics is correct.
Thank science for that man, you believe what I've been preaching on here for the last 3 years.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
If I recall correctly, no beneficial mutations were observed.

THere were, but only in adaptation. It hasn't proved that a new species can evolve, only that certain traits change due to changing circumstances. It's still a fruit fly.

at what percentage of mutation does a fruit fly cease to be a fruit fly?

lol

evolution has been shown in labs for thousands of years. How wild do you think cows were? It is really that simple.

Originally posted by inimalist
at what percentage of mutation does a fruit fly cease to be a fruit fly?

lol

evolution has been shown in labs for thousands of years. How wild do you think cows were? It is really that simple.

yes and we can also show dogs evolved from wolves yet creationists refuse to see the evidence

Equivocation for the win:

Evolution = adaptation; adaptation has been observed. Evolution = prokaryotes evolving to complex, multicellular organism. Because this is evolution, it has been observed and is thus fact.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
yes and we can also show dogs evolved from wolves yet creationists refuse to see the evidence
Dogs and wolves are of the same genus, canis. I don't know if your ignorant or just plain dumb.

Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Equivocation for the win:

Evolution = adaptation; adaptation has been observed. Evolution = prokaryotes evolving to complex, multicellular organism. Because this is evolution, it has been observed and is thus fact.

The problem is that there is no imperical evidence that speciation (the change from one species to another) can even occur. You assume that because microevolution is observed that macroevolution exists. And macroevolution is just speculation with no definitive imperial evidence or proof, and a pretty flawed speculation at that.

Originally posted by Transfinitum
The problem is that there is no imperical evidence that speciation (the change from one species to another) can even occur. You assume that because microevolution is observed that macroevolution exists. And macroevolution is just speculation with no definitive imperial evidence or proof, and a pretty flawed speculation at that.
You didn't understand what he said, eh?

Originally posted by Bardock42
You didn't understand what he said, eh?
Apparently not.

Originally posted by Transfinitum
Apparently not.

Yeah.

So why do you think macroevolution is a flawed speculation?

Originally posted by Transfinitum
The problem is that there is no imperical evidence that speciation (the change from one species to another) can even occur. You assume that because microevolution is observed that macroevolution exists. And macroevolution is just speculation with no definitive imperial evidence or proof, and a pretty flawed speculation at that.

New species have arisen in historical times. For example:

A new species of mosquito, isolated in London's Underground, has speciated from Culex pipiens (Byrne and Nichols 1999; Nuttall 1998).

Helacyton gartleri is the HeLa cell culture, which evolved from a human cervical carcinoma in 1951. The culture grows indefinitely and has become widespread (Van Valen and Maiorana 1991).

A similar event appears to have happened with dogs relatively recently. Sticker's sarcoma, or canine transmissible venereal tumor, is caused by an organism genetically independent from its hosts but derived from a wolf or dog tumor (Zimmer 2006; Murgia et al. 2006).

Several new species of plants have arisen via polyploidy (when the chromosome count multiplies by two or more) (de Wet 1971). One example is Primula kewensis (Newton and Pellew 1929).

Incipient speciation, where two subspecies interbreed rarely or with only little success, is common. Here are just a few examples:

Rhagoletis pomonella, the apple maggot fly, is undergoing sympatric speciation. Its native host in North America is Hawthorn (Crataegus spp.), but in the mid-1800s, a new population formed on introduced domestic apples (Malus pumila). The two races are kept partially isolated by natural selection (Filchak et al. 2000).
The mosquito Anopheles gambiae shows incipient speciation between its populations in northwestern and southeastern Africa (Fanello et al. 2003; Lehmann et al. 2003).
Silverside fish show incipient speciation between marine and estuarine populations (Beheregaray and Sunnucks 2001).

Ring species show the process of speciation in action. In ring species, the species is distributed more or less in a line, such as around the base of a mountain range. Each population is able to breed with its neighboring population, but the populations at the two ends are not able to interbreed. (In a true ring species, those two end populations are adjacent to each other, completing the ring.) Examples of ring species are

the salamander Ensatina, with seven different subspecies on the west coast of the United States. They form a ring around California's central valley. At the south end, adjacent subspecies klauberi and eschscholtzi do not interbreed (Brown n.d.; Wake 1997).
greenish warblers (Phylloscopus trochiloides), around the Himalayas. Their behavioral and genetic characteristics change gradually, starting from central Siberia, extending around the Himalayas, and back again, so two forms of the songbird coexist but do not interbreed in that part of their range (Irwin et al. 2001; Whitehouse 2001; Irwin et al. 2005).
the deer mouse (Peromyces maniculatus), with over fifty subspecies in North America.
many species of birds, including Parus major and P. minor, Halcyon chloris, Zosterops, Lalage, Pernis, the Larus argentatus group, and Phylloscopus trochiloides (Mayr 1942, 182-183).
the American bee Hoplitis (Alcidamea) producta (Mayr 1963, 510).
the subterranean mole rat, Spalax ehrenbergi (Nevo 1999).

Evidence of speciation occurs in the form of organisms that exist only in environments that did not exist a few hundreds or thousands of years ago. For example:
In several Canadian lakes, which originated in the last 10,000 years following the last ice age, stickleback fish have diversified into separate species for shallow and deep water (Schilthuizen 2001, 146-151).
Cichlids in Lake Malawi and Lake Victoria have diversified into hundreds of species. Parts of Lake Malawi which originated in the nineteenth century have species indigenous to those parts (Schilthuizen 2001, 166-176).
A Mimulus species adapted for soils high in copper exists only on the tailings of a copper mine that did not exist before 1859 (Macnair 1989).

There is further evidence that speciation can be caused by infection with a symbiont. A Wolbachia bacterium infects and causes postmating reproductive isolation between the wasps Nasonia vitripennis and N. giraulti (Bordenstein and Werren 1997).

Originally posted by Transfinitum
Dogs and wolves are of the same genus, canis. I don't know if your ignorant or just plain dumb.
i scored higher than you on psat so 😛