Creation vs Evolution

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
We could try and run a test, but testing everyone in the world will take forever and by the time it's finished half the people in the world would already be dead, therefore it's up to us at seperate people to attempt at gaining faith, rather than relying on others.

actually, no, its even easier than that

your hypothesis is that belief in god can make anything happen

well, choose something that you think is reasonable that I can observe, and make it happen.

So like, I could write down a number and you could have god tell you what it is, or you could have god identify something in my room or my cell number or something like that. Clearly it wouldn't work for me, since I don't believe, but someone with as much professed faith as you should clearly be able to get god to do something I could see. So ya, come up with something that you think you could get god to do, and well set it up.

Originally posted by inimalist
actually, no, its even easier than that

your hypothesis is that belief in god can make anything happen

well, choose something that you think is reasonable that I can observe, and make it happen.

So like, I could write down a number and you could have god tell you what it is, or you could have god identify something in my room or my cell number or something like that. Clearly it wouldn't work for me, since I don't believe, but someone with as much professed faith as you should clearly be able to get god to do something I could see. So ya, come up with something that you think you could get god to do, and well set it up.

I think that god does not like tests. 😱

what must he think of prayers then??

Originally posted by inimalist
actually, no, its even easier than that

your hypothesis is that belief in god can make anything happen

well, choose something that you think is reasonable that I can observe, and make it happen.

So like, I could write down a number and you could have god tell you what it is, or you could have god identify something in my room or my cell number or something like that. Clearly it wouldn't work for me, since I don't believe, but someone with as much professed faith as you should clearly be able to get god to do something I could see. So ya, come up with something that you think you could get god to do, and well set it up.

It's much easier to say than it is to do. It's not that I don't believe he exists or anything.

But i'm not convinced enough that it would happen by my own hand, I'm not convinved enough that I have the faith to identify anything in your room. According to the specific equation in question I need unshakeable faith that it will happen by me, that of which I don't have.

I may have the faith to bring back the dead if I stood next to them and prayed like in the bible, i feel quite confident in that. I'm not 100% on making it happen over long distances though.

Originally posted by inimalist
what must he think of prayers then??

You are not going to like my answer.

Fictional gods can be whatever you want them to be.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx

I may have the faith to bring back the dead if I stood next to them and prayed like in the bible, i feel quite confident in that. I'm not 100% on making it happen over long distances though.

argument over 🙂

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are not going to like my answer.

...

Fictional gods can be whatever you want them to be.

😂

Originally posted by inimalist
argument over 🙂

Why so soon? 😕

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
Why so soon? 😕

ok, well, go to a cometary tonight 😖hrug:

i don't know, snap a photo of the risen dead on your camera phone or something?

more honestly, thats a fairly unassailable position. If you believe you can bring back the dead, I hardly think rational arguments are going to do anything to show you otherwise.

Digi covered it a few pages back, many people have been over pretty much all the points you are making over 183 pages.

And to be honest, your inability to make god do anything instantly makes the bible less credible than a science book, unless you can give an objective measure of "strength of faith"

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think that god does not like tests. 😱

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, well, go to a cometary tonight 😖hrug:

i don't know, snap a photo of the risen dead on your camera phone or something?

more honestly, thats a fairly unassailable position. If you believe you can bring back the dead, I hardly think rational arguments are going to do anything to show you otherwise.

Digi covered it a few pages back, many people have been over pretty much all the points you are making over 183 pages.

And to be honest, your inability to make god do anything instantly makes the bible less credible than a science book, unless you can give an objective measure of "strength of faith"

But that's the point see, a formula in a science book needs to be applied properly, and right now I don't have the right "scientific" equipment or supplies to do the full formula mentioned in the Bible.

Lacking sufficient faith for doing a miracle is like lacking sufficient gas for lighting a fire. If you give up too soon you'll never light the fire, or do the miracle.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Not god but his followers 😉

Good point. 😄

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
But that's the point see, a formula in a science book needs to be applied properly, and right now I don't have the right "scientific" equipment or supplies to do the full formula mentioned in the Bible.

Lacking sufficient faith for doing a miracle is like lacking sufficient gas for lighting a fire. If you give up too soon you'll never light the fire, or do the miracle.

ok, yes, but any good scientific paper (which are sourced in good science books) has a section that specifically describes the methods required for a study so that anyone can complete them.

While I understand that this means you, personally, might not have the equipment to do the test (I don't have a hadron collider, for instance), what would be required is explicitly available. This is part of the credibility of science and thus, science books, very clear and empirical standards for what would be required.

However, something like faith is no empirical, there is no way for us to gauge how much faith someone has, and also, any failure of someone to show positive evidence for the power of faith is unfalsifiable due to the fact that it can be rationalized as "this person didn't have the faith", much like you got to do when challenged just now.

Both of these things are unscientific, and would never make it into a science book that would be considered scientific, and especially not into real scientific writing. That is, of course, unless you can provide an empirical measure of how faithfuls someone is, in the sense of them being able to perform miracles.

This also doesn't get you off the hook for saying you could raise the dead. Prove it. You made the claim, it is now your responsibility to provide the evidence to support it.

Infact lacking sufficient faith to do a miracle is like not having a fossil on hand that supports evolution and testing it infront of my eyes.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
Infact lacking sufficient faith to do a miracle is like not having a fossil on hand that supports evolution and testing it infront of my eyes.

no, its not

a fossil is a identifiable object which can be, PRIOR TO TESTING, discerned of its existence

faith can only be identified after testing, when the person succeeds or fails at the test, allowing the "insufficient faith" cop out

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, yes, but any good scientific paper (which are sourced in good science books) has a section that specifically describes the methods required for a study so that anyone can complete them.

While I understand that this means you, personally, might not have the equipment to do the test (I don't have a hadron collider, for instance), what would be required is explicitly available. This is part of the credibility of science and thus, science books, very clear and empirical standards for what would be required.

However, something like faith is no empirical, there is no way for us to gauge how much faith someone has, and also, any failure of someone to show positive evidence for the power of faith is unfalsifiable due to the fact that it can be rationalized as "this person didn't have the faith", much like you got to do when challenged just now.

Both of these things are unscientific, and would never make it into a science book that would be considered scientific, and especially not into real scientific writing. That is, of course, unless you can provide an empirical measure of how faithfuls someone is, in the sense of them being able to perform miracles.

This also doesn't get you off the hook for saying you could raise the dead. Prove it. You made the claim, it is now your responsibility to provide the evidence to support it.

Faith can be defined if you yourself are definate that it will happen. No specific "Perhaps" will get you the miracle. In the end if you know that it will happen and have no doubts atall, it will happen. That's what the formula says. You're the only person who can experience the evidence, to pass it on to other people.
You need one person to have faith first to start off the chain reaction to others, otherwise everyone is thinking "There will be no miracle" hence there being no doubtless faith, which then implies no miracle/no god.

I can think in my head "God exists", that doesn't mean that I have confident faith that he will do things through me. An example would be feeling the confidence of raising the dead infront of people without doubting.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
Faith can be defined if you yourself are definate that it will happen. No specific "Perhaps" will get you the miracle. In the end if you know that it will happen and have no doubts atall, it will happen. That's what the formula says. You're the only person who can experience the evidence, to pass it on to other people.
You need one person to have faith first to start off the chain reaction to others, otherwise everyone is thinking "There will be no miracle" hence there being no doubtless faith, which then implies no miracle/no god.

I can think in my head "God exists", that doesn't mean that I have confident faith that he will do things through me. An example would be feeling the confidence of raising the dead infront of people without doubting.

ok, fine, and if you want to believe this, cool

but understand, that my point about this being less credible than science is proved by your argument

science is observable to everyone, its results and predictions are ingrained in our technology, events in the future are predictable far better through scientific experimentation and models far better than through predictions made in the bible.

so cool, I have no interest in arguing against your personal faith, simply maintaining the integrity of scientific evidence

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
I may have the faith to bring back the dead if I stood next to them and prayed like in the bible, i feel quite confident in that. I'm not 100% on making it happen over long distances though.

also, would you describe the methodology you intend to employ when you do this, you know, to provide the evidence to support your point.

honestly, make a zombie and you will have some evidence that I would be very interested in

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, fine, and if you want to believe this, cool

but understand, that my point about this being less credible than science is proved by your argument

science is observable to everyone, its results and predictions are ingrained in our technology, events in the future are predictable far better through scientific experimentation and models far better than through predictions made in the bible.

so cool, I have no interest in arguing against your personal faith, simply maintaining the integrity of scientific evidence

As my final word, do you believe that man would have ever entered space if they thought it was impossible?

Would entering space be discovering truth through faith?

The truth is that if you never test something because you believe it's impossible, science wouldn't be where it is today.
We would have never discovered the atom, because we'd just take life as we visibly see it, the "empirical evidence".
You'll never discover God, because you just take life by visible evidence.

So I’m a little loss here in this conversation, if I understand if you have enough faith then the miracle will happen but if you don’t then it will not happen? So what about all the devout believers that pray for miracles that never happen and the miracles that happen to non-believers?