Originally posted by h1a8
As a lesson to you Carver9, never ever ever go by the [B]results of past comic battles as proof or even evidence. Only go by specific feats. Why? Because the results of the battles that happened in comics are mostly invalid. Why? Because writers write to make money and not to make sense. This is seen when Spider-man beat Firelord. So we must ask ourself; who can win based solely off of power set. [/B]
Yup that Firelord fight really kept Marvel out of the red didn't it? 🙄
Fact is, characters are measured by what they're capable of doing FIGHTS INCLUDED... you can choose to omit those "results" but choosing to do so omits parts of the characters that ACTUALLY EXIST rather than the characters you wished did.
Originally posted by h1a8Prove it... NOTHING spiderman has ever done in terms of sheer speed greatly outstrips what Cap and Wolverine have proven to do on panel as well..
Spider-man is a lot lot faster than both Wolverine and Captain America.
Originally posted by h1a8Which doesn't work all that great when he's up against high calibur fighters. Doh! is that why we're not supposed to use thos fights?
Plus he has spider-sense to prevent him from getting hit.
Originally posted by h1a8He's never webbed a fighting Wolverine IN SPITE OF TRYING.... and the last time he tried that on Cap, Cap was dodging it.....
He can easily web both like he did wolverine before with ease.
So..... no....
Originally posted by h1a8If by interesting you mean what it would be like to see all of Spiderman's insides wanting to be on his outsides, then yes, that would be rather interesting.
It would be more interesting if CA and Logan vs. Spider-man.
Originally posted by jinzinI wasn't saying that we shouldn't take the fights into account, just the results of the fight. As far as the fights we should only take the individual feats or happenings (the parts) into account. And sorry, I don't know what kept out the the red means.
Yup that Firelord fight really kept Marvel out of the red didn't it? 🙄Fact is, characters are measured by what they're capable of doing FIGHTS INCLUDED... you can choose to omit those "results" but choosing to do so omits parts of the characters that ACTUALLY EXIST rather than the characters you wished did.
Then you know nothing of Spider-man Mr. jinzin. Neither CA nor Wolverine is fast enough to dodge a bullet after it is fired while Spider-man is. Those two are not even fast enough to dodge a bullet period. They rely solely on evasive moving (avoiding the aim of the shooter or sensing when the trigger is being pulled). Spider-man is stronger and weighs less than they do. This means that since his force (which is mass x acceleration) is more than 10 times greater than theirs then his acceleration is much greater (more than 10 times to be exact). So he must be faster. Even without this logic everyone here (except Wolverine fans) knows that Spider-man is faster. This is comic (common) sense.
Prove it... NOTHING spiderman has ever done in terms of sheer speed greatly outstrips what Cap and Wolverine have proven to do on panel as well..
Almost correct. We can use the things in the fight, just not the outcome. But spider-man getting hit by slower enemies can not happen in forum fights. Because forum fights assume that the characters are fighting with the best of their abilities (PIS excluded).
Which doesn't work all that great when he's up against high calibur fighters. Doh! is that why we're not supposed to use thos fights?
He's never webbed a fighting Wolverine IN SPITE OF TRYING.... and the last time he tried that on Cap, Cap was dodging it.....
So..... no....
He did web a fighting Wolverine. What are you saying, Spider-man surprise webbed Logan or that Logan allowed Spider-man to web him that way? And spider-man is multiple times faster than CA with many more times the reflexes than CA has. He webs him in less than 1 sec. You must understand, CA and Wolverine are two of the most popular characters of Marvel. They have many many fans. Do you think Marvel would have spider-man dominate them with ease even though it is in his power set to do so? Why do you think CA can take hits from Hulk, hurt Hulk, and last with him in a fight? That's ridiculous. Hulk could liquefy CA with just one hit. But CA is too popular for him to lose that bad (one of the poster boys of Marvel). So it is more of a popularity contest.
[QUOTE][B]
If by interesting you mean what it would be like to see all of Spiderman's insides wanting to be on his outsides, then yes, that would be rather interesting.
I lied. It wouldn't be interesting if Spider-man fought those two at the same time. For Spider-man would win too quick and very easily for it to be interesting.
Originally posted by h1a8
Then you know nothing of Spider-man Mr. jinzin. Neither CA nor Wolverine is fast enough to dodge a bullet after it is fired while Spider-man is. Those two are not even fast enough to dodge a bullet period. They rely solely on evasive moving (avoiding the aim of the shooter or sensing when the trigger is being pulled). Spider-man is stronger and weighs less than they do. This means that since his force (which is mass x acceleration) is more than 10 times greater than theirs then his acceleration is much greater (more than 10 times to be exact). So he must be faster. Even without this logic everyone here (except Wolverine fans) knows that Spider-man is faster. This is comic (common) sense.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Actually Cap CAN dodge bullets...
http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capdamanta2.jpg
He see's the aim faster (not the bullets). He is not fast to move out of the way once the bullet is fired. Cap can run no more than 40mph.
Plus I don't go by people's words if they contradict comic sense. For example, Sentry stalemating Galactus by Spider-man.
Originally posted by h1a8
I wasn't saying that we shouldn't take the fights into account, just the results of the fight. As far as the fights we should only take the individual feats or happenings (the parts) into account. And sorry, I don't know what kept out the the red means.
Sorry, but if you want to use fights as a means to pull feats the results have to be taken into consideration. Again omission does nothing but establish the concept for a character that doesn't exist.
Originally posted by h1a8
Then you know nothing of Spider-man Mr. jinzin. Neither CA nor Wolverine is fast enough to dodge a bullet after it is fired while Spider-man is. Those two are not even fast enough to dodge a bullet period. They rely solely on evasive moving (avoiding the aim of the shooter or sensing when the trigger is being pulled).
🤨 Are you seriously contending that these characters can dodge bullets?
WTF?
Are you unaware that an objective third person narrative (which takes precedence over your opinion by the way) has outright stated both of them to dodge not only bullets but lazers, AND light beams on panel?
There's no question that they can dodge bullets, or move fast enough to react to a bullet after the trigger's been pulled... both have feats where they have done just that.. No "evasive moving" excuse about it. So once again, you're wrong.
Originally posted by h1a8
Spider-man is stronger and weighs less than they do. This means that since his force (which is mass x acceleration) is more than 10 times greater than theirs then his acceleration is much greater (more than 10 times to be exact). So he must be faster. Even without this logic everyone here (except Wolverine fans) knows that Spider-man is faster. This is comic (common) sense.
So once again, you're wrong.
Originally posted by h1a8
Almost correct. We can use the things in the fight, just not the outcome. But spider-man getting hit by slower enemies can not happen in forum fights. Because forum fights assume that the characters are fighting with the best of their abilities (PIS excluded).
The major problem with him here? Neither of his opponents are slower than he is... So much for that red herring.
And? At the best of their abilities, not only have Wolverine and Cap dodged bullets, and proven to be as fast as Spiderman, they've also proven they have the tools to take him down individually... 😐
Originally posted by h1a8
He did web a fighting Wolverine. What are you saying, Spider-man surprise webbed Logan or that Logan allowed Spider-man to web him that way?
Oh, unless you're refferring to the several times he's TRIED to do that to a fighting Wolvie.... and failed.... 😐
Originally posted by h1a8
And spider-man is multiple times faster than CA with many more times the reflexes than CA has.
Originally posted by h1a8
He webs him in less than 1 sec.
Originally posted by h1a8Again.. WTF... the outcome of these fights is never based soley on power sets... this isn't a card game.
You must understand, CA and Wolverine are two of the most popular characters of Marvel. They have many many fans. Do you think Marvel would have spider-man dominate them with ease even though it is in his power set to do so?
There's an enormous list of characteristics and attributes either one of these two characters have that Pete don't, which DO contribute to a fights outcome.
Originally posted by h1a8
Why do you think CA can take hits from Hulk, hurt Hulk, and last with him in a fight?
He can't... He can't... Indestructible shield, enhanced reflexes and agility, expert strategy.... and even that's only enough to keep Hulk at bay periodically.....
Originally posted by h1a8
That's ridiculous. Hulk could liquefy CA with just one hit. But CA is too popular for him to lose that bad (one of the poster boys of Marvel). So it is more of a popularity contest.
Hulk's never given cap a full hit.. 😬
Originally posted by h1a8
I lied. It wouldn't be interesting if Spider-man fought those two at the same time. For Spider-man would win too quick and very easily for it to be interesting.
🙄
yeah.... that'd happen
Spiderman is not faster then Wolverine.
Here Wolverine moving faster then special opt train soldiers who are trained to take out a Super Human who had super human physical abilities failed to see him move.
http://img481.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolverinev106817ff1fh1.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolverinev106818yp8id6.jpg
Here Wolverine dodging energy blasts from a meta human showing his speed.
http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=energydodge3vl4fp2.jpg
Logan reacting and keeping up with speed demon http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=strategydz6wt5.jpg
Theses feats are only two feats of many others. Logan speed level is comparable to that of Spiderman’s, and Captain America has comparable feats as well.
Now I heard some one saying that Wolverine is not able to dodge bullets. This is incorrect. Here are a view feats below which showing him dodging bullets and objects as fast if not faster.
Wolverine Weapon X novel states Wolverine views bullets in slow motion which allows him to dodge them.
Wolverine dodging machine gun firer from some soldiers
http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolverine1611jl0qz0.jpg
Wolverine causally flipping over some machine gun firer from Nuke
http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolverineorigins03vt6gh4.jpg
Here Wolverine dodging some gun firer
http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wpyrate09181rtkl0.jpg
Wolverine dodging a bunch of machine gun firer, while charging the people firing at him.
http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2021yb8cp9.jpg
Wolverine senses and then dodges a bullet.
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolverine64ob8.jpg
Wolverine dodging missile while charging a helicopter
http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolverine1618qu4dy8.jpg
Wolverine dodging a bullet after it was firer behind him.
http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmenv2133p04oy5.jpg
Wolverine dodges Living Lightning
http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolverinespeedfeatds9.jpg
As for Logan reflexes here what they ahve been stated as such
http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hyerspeedlo1ey7.jpg
Originally posted by jinzinThe invalid happenings in a fight can make the result invalid. Thus we can't go by results alone. Also character's must lose fights sometimes, even in their own comic. Otherwise they would get boring and sales would drop. But this has nothing to do with forum fights though.
It means that it made so much money it kept them out of Bankruptcy... which didn't happen.
I'm mocking your rationale that the victors in comic battles are dictated exclusively for the purpose of sales.. it's ridiculous and does little to explain how characters lose fights in their own comics on a semi-routine basis.Sorry, but if you want to use fights as a means to pull feats the results have to be taken into consideration. Again omission does nothing but establish the concept for a character that doesn't exist.
🤨 Are you seriously contending that these characters can't dodge bullets?WTF?
Are you unaware that an objective third person narrative (which takes precedence over your opinion by the way) has outright stated both of them to dodge not only bullets but lazers, AND light beams on panel?
There's no question that they can dodge bullets, or move fast enough to react to a bullet after the trigger's been pulled... both have feats where they have done just that.. No "evasive moving" excuse about it. So once again, you're wrong.
Force=mass x acceleration and Spider-man can exert more force than both and Spider-man weighs less than both thus his acceleration must be alot greater than theirs. Otherwise, if his acceleration is equal or less than theirs then his force would be less than theirs since he weighs less. This alone proves Spider-man is faster. The other thing that proves it is the fact that Spider-man has dodged a bullet after the fire and the others didn't.
While that's a nice theory it doesn't play out in the books, never has Spiderman's speed been anywhere near fast enough to give your estimation any merit whatsoever. Everyone widely agrees that Spiderman is a faster competitor than either Wolverine or Cap because common sense dictates this to be true... But if you look at their feats objectively there's no difference in what Spiderman has done compared to these other two. Why people agree he's faster? Benefit of the doubt... But you said he's "a lot lot faster" which he isn't...
He's flat out stated as much about Wolverine.So once again, you're wrong.
PIS isn't the only thing that makes feats and outcomes invalid. The logically impossible also makes them invalid. It is impossible for spider-man to nonpurposely get hit by a slower moving enemy no matter how skill they are (unless they are hypnotizing him in the process). Why? Because Spider-man sees bullets at about 20mph and slower moving enemies not more than 1mph. This is like a very slow walker coming at you and you somehow don't get out of the way (you're mesmerize on how good they look). Add that to the fact that Spider-man has spider-sense that can jerk his body out of the way before the attack is thrown in addition to his great reflexes and speed.
Sure we can... as they've happened, and every outcome can't be argued legitimately to PIS....
Spiderman getting hit by slower enemies CAN happen in a forum fight since 1) Spiderman's not perfect. 2) He lacks formal training and 3) He regularly has problems with talented fighters..
Yes they are. It is comic sense.
The major problem with him here? Neither of his opponents are slower than he is... So much for that red herring.
They have never dodged a bullet after the fire. And the fights are all invalid. Why? Because it is impossible for Spider-man to get hit by them, as proven earlier. Thus the fights didn't happen. You are looking at no more than dreams or illusions that can be easily retconned if the writers want to explain how Spider-man got hit by them.
And? At the best of their abilities, not only have Wolverine and Cap dodged bullets, and proven to be as fast as Spiderman, they've also proven they have the tools to take him down individually... 😐
Show me. Logan seems alert to me. And it seems that a guy who is watching spiderman that has the ability to dodge bullets has a hard time with being easily webbed (in an embarrassing fashion).
Nope.... Wolverine's standing there blabbing at him with his claws retracted.... What part of that looks like Wolverine was fighting?
FORCE=MASS X ACCELERATION and Spider-man has dodged a bullet after the fire while the others never did.
Prove it... Prove that he's faster or that his reflexive abilities outscore Cap's "many more times" over.... Don't sit there and give me another theory, give me proof.
The outcome of a forum fight is.
Again.. WTF... the outcome of these fights is never based soley on power sets... this isn't a card game.
Nah. By the existence of webbing their isn't one.
There's an enormous list of characteristics and attributes either one of these two characters have that Pete don't, which DO contribute to a fights outcome.
True. But not good enough to stop Spider-man from easily webbing him.
He can't... He can't... Indestructible shield, enhanced reflexes and agility, expert strategy.... and even that's only enough to keep Hulk at bay periodically.....
Yes he has. It sure look like a full hit to me.
Hulk's never given cap a full hit.. 😬
