Originally posted by The_Mayor
I think the whole reason Kobe is sayin all of this is so he MAKES them get better players, and more.
While that is true, he obviously didnt think it through because now the Lakers are in a weak negotiating position when it comes to improving the team. Every team that the Lakers talk to this off season now know that if they dont trade with the Lakers Kobe will be gone and the Lakers will be a long way from contending and if they do trade with us they will ask for alot more than we should give up.
Don't you get it? We WOULDN'T be talking to any teams had Kobe not spoken out. Past situations prove that to be true. Kobe didn't put us in any kind of weak position simply because we wouldn't be in trade talks had he not come out.
So what you are saying is, you would rather keep Bynum and Odom than Kobe? Because that is what it sounds like.
You accuse me of not getting it and then display horrendous reading comprehension yourself?
I've tried to explain my position to you man but you seem to be reading something else entirely. Just except that we see it differently and stop trying to convince me that i am missing part of Kobe's master plan.
If you are an Laker insider that knows for sure that the front office had no intention of improving the team then i stand corrected, but all the interviews i heard after the season ended pointed towards a very different roster and that changes were going to be made.
You dont need to defend Kobe from me bro, i agree with the message he is sending to the front office. What i dont agree with is him now basically saying that no matter what you do im not playing for you next season, the off season is just started and he is already prepared to pack his bags. Thats the only problem i have with Kobe at the moment but it doesnt change the fact that i am still a Kobe fan, i just dont follow him blindly and without question. He is open to criticism just like anyone else.
What I can't understand is your thinking of Lamar and Bynum would be too much to give up for Jermaine O'Neal, that makes no ****ing sense. But I guess you would rather we get eliminated in the first round every year, if that what makes you happy then you would be a horrible GM, just like Mitch. I cry at just the idea of us having those two worthless players on our team next year but no Kobe. What a ****in joke!
Can you tell me why you think Lamar and Bynum would be too much? With all of Lamar's inconsistencies and failures to show up when needed and Bynum is just a joke right now. We should have traded him to New Jersey for Jason Kidd. Answer me this, how many all star games have Lamar been too, now how many have Jermaine been to?
You are a fool if you think we would have done anything this offseason. We didn't pull the trigger on Artest, Kidd, Boozer, and Baron Davis, what the hell lead you to believe we would have done anything this offseason? WHAT!??!
Did you not understand the part where they said they were building towards the future? Yet they were going to do some trades to help better the team now? LOL I think you better rethink your stand on the whole situation because you are obviously forgetting some key facts.
Kobe obviously knew where the organization was headed and what they planned to do in the offseason. Your whole idea of him putting us in a weaker position is moot. The only we were going to do in the offseason was draft another player for the future and not the now. Kobe is merely here to put asses in seats, not to win a championship like the promised.
You think I'm blindly defending Kobe? Open your damn eyes, they weren't going to do anything! Any sensible person would know this.
It's pretty obvious what the Lakers have been doing. It's not about being non proactive, it's about what there ultimate plan is, and trading for Jermaine O'Neal would not have fit into that plan if Kobe didn't say anything. Open your damn eyes.
You dont have to understand my way of thinking but it would save you alot of time if you just excepted it instead of flying off the handle every time i post an opinion different to yours.
I want the Lakers to improve and i would like them to get JO, the only way my opinion differs from yours is the fact that i think Odom and Bynum (and others because of JO's huge salary) is paying too much. JO has said that he wants out and the Pacers want to move him, so it would be stupid imo to pay such a high price for him when he could possibly be had for less if we are patient.
Its common to undervalue players to make your point and i think you are doing that with Lamar (especially since you list him as "worthless", the only area he is inconsistent is scoring and thats because he is a facilitator by nature. He's not a true 2nd option but put him with a couple of scorers and he fits right in and nobody cares that he only scores 15pts a game (much like when he played with Wade and Butler in Miami). Do you know how many players average 15pts 9rbs and 5 dimes a season? Its easy to focus on the fact that he doesnt score as much as many would like but with Kobe as the focal point of the team you are never going to need another dominant scorer, you just need players that can create there own offense when Kobe is being blitzed.
As for Bynum, i like his potential and i think he could be a top center in a few years (especially because the league is so thin at that spot right now), however i have no problem with Bynum being dealt if it brings in the player we need. Its Lamar i dont want to part with in the JO deal and that is not because i think Lamar is a better player than JO, its because i think its better for the Lakers to have a three headed attack of Kobe, Lamar and JO and i think we can get that if he play hardball with the Pacers.
You may think im a fool for thinking the front office wouldnt have improved the team but unless you have some insider info then im going to believe what i heard with my own ears in the season exit interviews. While the front office did excuse most of the bad play on injuries they did say they would aggressively look to improve the team specifically at PG and PF.
You yourself were singing a very different tune about how good we were when we were healthy and beating the elite teams - how things change eh?
Yeah I am singing a different tune because I seen how Lamar played in the playoffs. He is there one game then the next "where the **** is he????" He has played like this his whole career, I've given up hope on him. I'm so sick of him not playing to his full potential. Getting out rebounded by Marion, a blatant lack of effort on the glass on both sides of the court. He doesn't try his hardest every game and you can clearly see that.
I want him gone if it means getting Jermaine O'Neal.
And this insider your talking about, would this be the same source that said Kobe got Shaq traded? How quickly you forget. So you think Kobe didn't have the "inside info"? Don't you think he knew what their intentions and plans were? I'm sure if he knew they were going after Jermaine O'Neal he wouldn't have came out and said anything.
Think about that.
Kobe doesn't deserve this. He doesn't deserve to have to sit around and wait for Lamar to get his act together, for Bynum to grow up, or for the Lakers to put together a real title contender. Neither the fans or Kobe deserves this.
Lakers are taking a huge dump on us right now. shitshit
They need to get their minds right and part ways with this dead weight.
Originally posted by Lord Evolution
Yeah I am singing a different tune because I seen how Lamar played in the playoffs. He is there one game then the next "where the **** is he????" He has played like this his whole career, I've given up hope on him. I'm so sick of him not playing to his full potential. Getting out rebounded by Marion, a blatant lack of effort on the glass on both sides of the court. He doesn't try his hardest every game and you can clearly see that.I want him gone if it means getting Jermaine O'Neal.
And this insider your talking about, would this be the same source that said Kobe got Shaq traded? How quickly you forget. So you think Kobe didn't have the "inside info"? Don't you think he knew what their intentions and plans were? I'm sure if he knew they were going after Jermaine O'Neal he wouldn't have came out and said anything.
Think about that.
The insider i was referring to was the one i thought you obviously had in the Lakers front office, how else can you know with such certainty that the Lakers front office was planning on doing nothing this off season.
As for Lamar i wish he would play with that fire like he did in the playoffs more often, he increased his scoring and rebounding only his playmaking dropped off and thats because he was aggressively going after his shots. The guy had so many injuries i lost count and he was still out there battling, he scored 33 pts in the elimination game and we may have got that game if he didnt get that 5th foul and could have played the entire 4th. How you can say that he had a poor playoffs when he averaged 19 and 13 is beyond me, but i guess we see what we want to see.
Look im not trying to excuse the poor job the front office has done these past few years (seriously read my posts, not just the bits you disagree with) but like it or not we are stuck with them. Im hoping that we can improve the team around Kobe and he comes back next season happy, id like Lamar to be on the team also but if he's not i hope we got fair value for him (he is a better player than you give him credit for).
But all indications are that Kobe doesnt want to play for the Lakers anymore, you seem to be ignoring this huge glaring fact. If he had said that he would wait and see what moves are going to be made then i might have more faith, but now you have him talking to fans telling them to buy their Kobe Bulls jerseys? that doesnt fill me with alot of hope. He doesnt want to be here and if the Lakers are going to keep him in spite of his trade demands our team chemistry is going to be in the toilet before training camp.
He plays inconsistent, he could of had a better post season if he played up to his potential like he hasn't been doing for his whole career. You can't count on this guy, he will give you almost a triple double one night then the next he'll give you 10 points and 7 rebounds. That just isn't going to cut it, especially when you are talking about getting a superstar player in Jermaine O'Neal, that is more than we could possibly ask for. Team chemistry doesn't matter when you are already losing. And we have been doing a lot of that lately. The hell should we care about team chemistry when Kobe is carrying the "team" night in and night out. What do you want them to do? Hold hands while they watch Kobe score all the points? That is some team chemistry right there.
But what got me really shaking my head is when you said you wouldn't want Lamar traded unless you got fair value for him, but then you put this lineup up...
PG - Gordon / Farmar
SG - Evans / Sefalosha / Sasha
SF - Odom / Walton / Vlade
PF - PJ / Thomas / Turiaf
C - Bynum / Kwame / Mihm
Notice the absence of Kobe...so what you're trying to say is, Jermaine O'Neal wouldn't be a fair trade value for Odom but Ben Gordon, PJ Brown(old ass) and Thabo Sefolosha for Kobe would?
That has to be a joke.
That would be worst than the Shaq for Odom, Butler and Grant trade.
Mitch is that you?
If you think we would do more damage with that lineup than a lineup with Kobe/O'Neal as the nucleus then you have sadly mistaken.
But then after that you wrote shit about us getting players in the draft with a #19 and #9 pick, the ****?
You ask if I have the inside info since I'm so sure we weren't going to do anything, where is yours? How do you know we were going to try to get a player to help out Kobe? It works both ways and history proves that we were going to sit on our asses and play golf until the season started again.
Dear GOD this has to be a joke!
Koolruninz are you playing around?
Maybe you should go back and read that entire post, i said that was the best deal i had seen for Kobe and that line up wouldnt be that bad for a rebuilding team (it would be a easy playoff qualifier in the east). Not that it was fair value, i even said that you never get fair value for a superstar. I also gave my reasons why i thought it was the best trade i had seen but you seem to have ignored that part to. I think if you read (and comprehended) my entire posts we could have saved a few pages of needless back and forth when its obvious its just a case of differing opinions. The difference is that im not trying to change yours im just giving mine.
Team chemistry is very important (especially when you are losing) and at the start of the season it showed in the way the Lakers played, after the injuries we never got it back and thats why we looked so out of sorts towards the end of the season. It was the same players at the start of the year and at the end so what changed when we got all our players back? Just watch the Spurs play and tell me chemistry isnt important.
Anyway im done for the night, i really dont know why this is so hard for you to except man but we just dont agree on this (nor do we have to). I've got into some heated debates on this forum before but never with a fan of the same team who has shares many of the same opinions just a couple of conflicting ones. Well done man, you have shown me something new after all these years.
That lineup would be a guaranteed lottery pick for us...but for a "rebuilding" team I guess that would be the best possible thing. Maybe we should tank some games too, might even get OJ Mayo if we fail enough.
But that is just it, and this is what divides Lakers fans, the front office and Kobe. We don't want to rebuild. Kobe is in his prime now, not 5 years down the road where Bynum COULD be this or whatever. We want to win now, while we still have the best player in the league in his prime and taring up the league. I can tell you right now, we aren't going to win a championship any time soon if we trade Kobe. Bynum with his mindset will probably be a future Lamar Odom and that spells trouble for us if we keep him. If we trade him now, while he has everybody in the league fooled about his future, we can get quality "win now" players in return.
One question
Do you favor the Lakers trying to get pieces to win now, or building a team up for the future?
Answer that and we can continue with our argument.
Of course this team would be lead by no other than Andrew Bynum and once we get OJ Mayo at #1 it could be like the new Kobe and Shaq.
yay!