Darkseid Strikes back at The Heralds of Galactus

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
They were in good shape in that they weren't hurt, but that doesn't mean that the power his machines had drained away suddenly returned. The fact that his machines planned on using their energy up over a period of time explains why they weren't near death or anything. Still, I doubt they were 100% whe n they fought Tyrant. 90%, maybe.

So ya, he did a little better to Tyrant, than he did to Thanos.
Mind you he had the others.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Tyrant's a high-end Skyfather leveller, IMO. But not above Skyfather level. I'd say he's roughly equal to Odin for raw power (versatility is debatable)

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Yes. As you can seem, he grunts as Surfer attacks him. The blast made him feel some pain.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Uh, both that and Surfer's attack had roughly the same effect: making him grunt. The only real difference is "Huuunh!" as compared to "Araaagh!"

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
I'd imagine he felt some pain, given it made him think that taking JoH in wouldn't be as easy as he'd assumed.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Mind you, he didn't have much more effect on Tyrant either -- he turned Tyrant's head and had him grimacing from the blows for a couple of panels. I'd say both felt some pain (enough to commade their attention), though nothing significant.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
That doesn't mean he WANTED to take the blasts head on. The text just seems to back up the fact that he wanted to end it quickly, IMO.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Yeah, which is why I consider Tyrant high-end Skyfather level physically, but not above.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Zeus also fought She-Hulk, Namor, and Photon when he beat the Avengers team including Thor. I'd say the showings are comparable.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Anywho, I generally agree that Tyrant is above Zeus. However, I consider Zeus a mid-Skyfather leveller, below Odin.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
He's also stood up to Celestials for a brief time. 😉 But again, here I agree that Tyrant is more powerful.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
I think Odin basically just underestimated him at first.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
I think Skyfather types can generally take Herald-level attacks to no effect, but if they're hit by a good enough one, they can also be hurt to a minor degree.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Well, we're all biased. It's just a matter of degree. 😉 But thanks.

Er, nothing hurt S'ivaa until The Source consumed him again.

Anywho, here's the Jack of Hearts/Tyrant scene:

As you can see, it's stated they still can't win without Thanos helping, but I don't see someone ABOVE Skyfather level affected by JoH's blows that way.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Er, nothing hurt S'ivaa until The Source consumed him again.

Anywho, here's the Jack of Hearts/Tyrant scene:

As you can see, it's stated they still can't win without Thanos helping, but I don't see someone ABOVE Skyfather level affected by JoH's blows that way.

I was basically saying that no matter how powerful something is in DC, the hereos always seem to beat them permantly. Where as in marvel, things that powerful seem to get away or come back over and over. in DC, Galactus would be a one shot story and get beaten forever. cuz dc writes that way. where as marvel can see the value in a good villian, so they keep the bad guys amped up and coming back. even tho they lose, marvel has a good way of explaining thier losses. Like hungry galactus, and thanos giving up the power and pheonix getting all mushy. It keeps the villians fresh without depowering them or having them beat forver.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Er, nothing hurt S'ivaa until The Source consumed him again.

Anywho, here's the Jack of Hearts/Tyrant scene:

As you can see, it's stated they still can't win without Thanos helping, but I don't see someone ABOVE Skyfather level affected by JoH's blows that way.

Originally posted by bigbran
They still looked pretty good.
Plus Thanos fought him at 100% and above. And we all know what Happens to Surfer against Thanos.

So ya, he did a little better to Tyrant, than he did to Thanos.
Mind you he had the others.

There's also another brief Surfer/Thanos fight where Surfer held his own. Mind you, I wouldn't hold that against Thanos, but just FYI. Anyway, since I consider Thanos a Skyfather leveller himself, around Zeus or Mangog, this fits in with where I place Tyrant.

Originally posted by bigbran

And your probably right.

Alright. The only thing I disagreed with is that he's above Skyfather level. Certainly in his original form, but not in the depowered one.

Originally posted by bigbran
NO!!!
He's making the noise as he smokes Glads.

Eh, I don't see him grunting because he's attacking Gladiator. Looked to me more like the attack made him grunt.

Originally posted by bigbran

Here check it out.
These are the other times he hit Tyrant. No effect. But when he's hitting someone, and he doesn't move at all from Surfer's blast, you think it's going to hurt him?

The other times, Tyrant knew Surfer was coming. This one was a sucker attack. Since Ganymede also made him grunt, and it was stated that Surfer's power is greater than any of the others (which I would assume means his blasts are also greater than her staff), it's no stretch to assume the grunt was in response to Surfer' blast.

Originally posted by bigbran

No, he didn't open his mouth, or make any moves to make it seem like it hurt.

Well, his mouth IS open. Looked to me like it caught him just as he was hitting Glads, where he was already leaning, and made him grunt.

Originally posted by bigbran
Maybe, but all he did was Knock him off his feet, so..ya.
Thanos did some damage to Tyrant, nothing major.
Tyrant though, damaged Thanos quite a bit.

Odin damaged Thanos quite a bit in the end as well.

Originally posted by bigbran
No, he toom quite a few, without moving out of the way at all.(I think all the attacks, that hit him.)

I don't think that means he wanted to take them -- just that he knew he could withstand them without any significant harm.

Originally posted by bigbran

Odin level.
Full power Tyrant though, is way above Skyfather.

Yeah, but I think this thread involves the depowered one from SS#80-82.

Originally posted by bigbran

Photon and Thor, are the only ones, that compare to Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, and Glads.

Well, Namor has fought Surfer and Thor evenly before. He lacks versatility, but he's up there in raw power. He is to Marvel top tiers what Wonder Woman or Barda are to DC top tiers.

Originally posted by bigbran

Yup.
Zeus, could be on his level....maybe.
But most would have him below Odin.
He is the only Skyfather though(real ones) that is close to Odin. The others, aren't so lucky.

Surtur, DC's Cronos, and Seth are actually above Zeus, IMO.

Originally posted by bigbran

Ya, but a Celestial is way bigger than Thor, and Thor could avoid them easier than Mangog.
Only reason Thor would last there.

Actually, Thor survived several of their blasts and kept fighting in Thor#300. It was weird.

Originally posted by bigbran

Well he didn't do anything, beside slap him, before Gungir.

Yeah, but Gungir is part of his standard arsenal.

Originally posted by bigbran
He didn't cry out.
There was just one facial expression. Tyrant doesn't even try to avoid anything. He didn't even speak.
And this scan would also have JOH above Surfer.

Well, I didn't say he cried out, but he did have an expression of pain. The fact that he didn't retaliate before JOH could land a second attack also backs up that it had SOME kind of effect. Since I also think Surfer made Tyrant grunt with a sucker-blast, to me this doesn't put JoH above him. Mind you, JoH had more effect on Thanos that Surfer did in CPU. You can't always mix 'n match showings like that. In general, I'd say Jack's strength and blasts are in the same league as Surfer's.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
There's also another brief Surfer/Thanos fight where Surfer held his own. Mind you, I wouldn't hold that against Thanos, but just FYI.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Anyway, since I consider Thanos a Skyfather leveller himself, around Zeus or Mangog, this fits in with where I place Tyrant.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Alright. The only thing I disagreed with is that he's [B]above Skyfather level. Certainly in his original form, but not in the depowered one.[/B]

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Eh, I don't see him grunting because he's attacking Gladiator. Looked to me more like the attack made him grunt.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
The other times, Tyrant knew Surfer was coming. This one was a sucker attack.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Since Ganymede also made him grunt, and it was stated that Surfer's power is greater than any of the others

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
(which I would assume means his blasts are also greater than her staff), it's no stretch to assume the grunt was in response to Surfer' blast.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Well, his mouth IS open. Looked to me like it caught him just as he was hitting Glads, where he was already leaning, and made him grunt.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Odin damaged Thanos quite a bit in the end as well.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
I don't think that means he wanted to take them -- just that he knew he could withstand them without any significant harm.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Yeah, but I think this thread involves the depowered one from SS#80-82.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Well, Namor has fought Surfer and Thor evenly before. He lacks versatility, but he's up there in raw power. He is to Marvel top tiers what Wonder Woman or Barda are to DC top tiers.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Surtur, DC's Cronos, and Seth are actually above Zeus, IMO.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Actually, Thor survived several of their blasts and kept fighting in Thor#300. It was weird.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Yeah, but Gungir is part of his standard arsenal.

Originally posted by bigbran
There's quite a few, of him beating Surfer though.

Actually, AFAIK, they have 3 encounters:

1. Thanos does basically a hit and run with him right after his ressurection, around the 30's of Surfer's title. Surfer does say that Thanos' blasts made him feel more pain than anythign had before, but the fight was unconcluded. A bit later, Surfer unloads a big blast that turns Thanos' head, but otherwise he remains unharmed. Surfer is shocked and they stop fighting. Now, while this implies Thanos is much more powerful, he didn't actually defeat Surfer per se. I would say he owned Surfer, but he didn't actually get the win, IIRC.

2. The brief fight in SS#58, which was even and unconcluded.

3. The CPU fight, which you posted scans of.

Originally posted by bigbran

That's good. Not many people here consider him a skyfather.

I think his record is pretty comparable to many Skyfather level beings. Actually, I'd say Thanos has HIGH-end Skyfather level durability. Thing is his strength and blasts are only low-mid Skyfather level, and he doesn't have the big, flashy one-shot powers that other Skyfather types have (Odin's banishment, imprisoning, depowering abililities and so on, Darkseid's OE plot-device stuff, Neron's soul attacks, etc.)

Thanos is more "physical" than most Skyfather level beings, but he's definitely up there when it comes to raw power. Actually, he does have some versatility, although he doesn't use it often.

Originally posted by bigbran

He was a high skyfather though.

Agreed.

Originally posted by bigbran
Speaking of which, how powerful do you have to be, to be above a skyfather?

Powerful enough to completely own top tier beings on a consistent basis is how I define Skyfather level. For instance, the ability to take their attacks to little to no effect on average, blasts or punches capable of KOing them in one or a few shots, etc.

In general, I define the level between Heralds and Skyfathers as consisting of people like Hela, The Infinity Man, Apocalypse (I know many people think he sucks, but I tend to have more respect for his feats than most), Pluto, Kurse, Agogg, Durok, Metron, pre-ressurection Thanos, The Asgardian Destroyer, Despero, H/P Doomsday, Morg w/ WOL, etc.

If you're a step above these guys in power, you're Skyfather level to me.

I consider Despero, Morg w/ WOL, H/P Doomsday, and pre-ressurection Thanos to basically be the highest team-basher types. Takion, Dr. Fate, Mangog, full Nova Force weilders, DC Ares, etc. are who I consider to be the lowest Skyfather-level beings.

Originally posted by bigbran

It's clearly because he's hitting Glads.
What does Huuungh mean anyway? Wouldn't it be like you just hit something hard?
But his mouth is open because he's striking Glads.

I don't see how it could be because he's hitting Glads. Normal people occasionally grunt while throwing punches, but usually because they're tiring. Given Tyrant's stamina and the fact that he doesn't need to breathe, I doubt that's the reason for it. I mean, he doesn't grunt when he attacks anyone else. See the next panel -- he sure isn't grunting when he punches Surfer. I also have seen people say "Huuungh!" while being punched. I think it's clearly in response to Surfer's blast, but to each his own.

Originally posted by bigbran

And, that still desn't mean he hurt him.
Tyrant didn't even acknowledge his blast.
She made him scream though. And she hit him square in the head.
If, IF, Surfer did anything, it still didn't compare to what she did. Don't you make noises when you hit something.

See above about the difference between Tyrant and humans. I really don't see the difference between Surfer's attack and Ganymede's. They both made him grunt, and he shrugged both of them off the panel afterward. The only difference is the "sound" of his grunt.

Originally posted by bigbran

His mouth is open because he's hitting Glads.

Sure, but the grunt is because he's being blasted, IMO.

Originally posted by bigbran
That's because, that was after he pulled out Gungir.

Gungir just channels his innate power. It's not like a special foreign object. When you compare someone's power to Odin's, what he does with Gungir has to be factored in.

Originally posted by bigbran

Well, I think if he wanted to move, he could have.

Yes, but my point was that he didn't want to get blasted -- he just didn't think moving out of the way was worth the effort, given that he could take their attacks to little effect.

For a parallel, if a 9 year old kid tried to pick a fight with me, I'd probably grab his arms and immobilize him, then calm him down. In the process, I'm sure to take a few hits. Now, while I wouldn't want to take hits from the kid, moving out of the way wouldn't be worth the effort. It's take less effort to just take the hits, and grab his arms rather than dodging him until I found an opening.

Originally posted by bigbran

Namor, would do absolutely nothing to Tyrant.
Plus his hands, couldn't be compared to what Thor or Surfer could do.

Namor's punches are almost as damaging as the average Surfer blast or Thor strike, IMO.