Darkseid vs Dr. Fate

1. In that link, it looks like another Imp who's threatening to attack. All Thunderbolt does it talk him down. As we saw in JSA#80, even when he's out of the pen he still has the ability to verbally go against his master's commands, or even slightly resist them (not enough to matter, but still). I don't see any evidence in this that he could ignore his last command from Jakeem to keep "hugging" Mordru and start mounting an all-out war. I guess he could try and talk him down, though.

2. If Hector couldn't access his Fate power, how'd he turn into Dr. Fate? The only thing II've heard of with this is Fate not having Nabu's knowledge constantly talking to him. Even so, it looks like Nabu's trying to take over there. Give me the # where it's stated he was actually less powerful during this period.

3. Anywho, all that second scan says is that he's the most powerful sorceror. No direct statement of him vs. Nabu. In the DOV special, Nabu says he's the most powerful Lord of Order, and brings up how the reason Spectre owned Hector so easily is because he's merely Dr. Fate, not Nabu. I'm not sure an actual Lord of Order would be considered a "sorceror" anyway. More like a being that a sorceror invokes, IMO.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
1. In that link, it looks like another Imp who's threatening to attack. All Thunderbolt does it talk him down. As we saw in JSA#80, even when he's out of the pen he still has the ability to verbally go against his master's commands, or even slightly resist them (not enough to matter, but still). I don't see any evidence in this that he could ignore his last command from Jakeem to keep "hugging" Mordru and start mounting an all-out war. I guess he could try and talk him down, though.

Or he could do what he's plainly doing in that story. Which is thinking and acting independently.

2. If Hector couldn't access his Fate power, how'd he turn into Dr. Fate? The only thing II've heard of with this is Fate not having Nabu's knowledge constantly talking to him. Even so, it looks like Nabu's trying to take over there. Give me the # where it's stated he was actually less powerful during this period.

I don't know if he loses power or not but he can't access or utilize it so it doesn't matter. He could only perform relatively simple magics at that time.

3. Anywho, all that second scan says is that he's the most powerful sorceror. No direct statement of him vs. Nabu. In the DOV special, Nabu says he's the most powerful Lord of Order, and brings up how the reason Spectre owned Hector so easily is because he's merely Dr. Fate, not Nabu. I'm not sure an actual Lord of Order would be considered a "sorceror" anyway. More like a being that a sorceror invokes, IMO. [/B]

You're getting confused and seem to be missing the context of what all was going on in DoV. You need to read my post at the top of the second page about the different Fates. Dr.Fate, Nabu, and Mordru are all called sorcerors. Kent Nelson(Dr.Fate) has fought the Spectre a number of times and Nabu has fought him at least twice.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Or he could do what he's plainly doing in that story. Which is thinking and acting independently.

I see him talking independently in that story -- just as he always does, even when he's forced to act in a way that's not independent:

But I do not see any evidence he's able to fight as he chooses in there, much less to the full degree he'd be able to if given the order. Mind you, through enough willpower he's been able to fight an order he does not like and even turn on his "host":

But it take a hell of a lot of effort and he is likely nowhere near as effective as he would be if he was given permission to fight as he wants. Thunderbolt does nothing in your scan that he hasn't do in "our" world, nor does it in any way imple he gets to start ignoring his user's orders with no trouble in there.

I don't know if he loses power or not but he can't access or utilize it so it doesn't matter. He could only perform relatively simple magics at that time.

Again, I ask for a reference. AFAIK the only thing he lost was Nabu's guidance. He was still as powerful as ever. The fact that he was referenced as one of the "big guns" of magic alongside Phantom Stranger backs this up. Just tell me the # that makes you think Hector was vastly weaker at this point, and I'll check it out so I can judge for myself.

You're getting confused and seem to be missing the context of what all was going on in DoV. You need to read my post at the top of the second page about the different Fates. Dr.Fate, Nabu, and Mordru are all called sorcerors.

Where is Nabu called a sorceror? And the context of DOV itself clearly implies that Nabu is the most powerful Lord of Order and Hector, while a big gun, lacks the neccessary experience to fill his boots. But if you think a previous issue sheds light to make this not at bad for ol' Hec, I'm all ears as pertains to a reference.

Kent Nelson(Dr.Fate) has fought the Spectre a number of times and Nabu has fought him at least twice. [/B]

I'm not up to date on their Pre-Crisis battles.

Gah, so many typos in that last post ... Cursed 15 minute edit rule.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan But it take a hell of a lot of effort and he is likely nowhere near as effective as he would be if he was given permission to fight as he wants. Thunderbolt does nothing in your scan that he hasn't do in "our" world, nor does it in any way imple he gets to start ignoring his user's orders with no trouble in there.

That's not true. Thunderbolt in our world wouldn't be able to run after and restrain someone on his own like he does in that page. For that matter if Jakeem were not around, as he's not in that scene, Thunderbolt wouldn't be able to do anything at all but just stand there. When Johnny Thunder died all Thunderbolt could do was hover over his body where it stood. With no commands he couldn't act. And as I told you Thunderbolt was part of a strike team. I'm not going to scan the whole book and you probably would still give some wierd interpretation to deny it anyway. But he's acting purely on his own. Proven by the fact that Jakeem is not even in the area.

Again, I ask for a reference. AFAIK the only thing he lost was Nabu's guidance. He was still as powerful as ever. The fact that he was referenced as one of the "big guns" of magic alongside Phantom Stranger backs this up.

Whether he's technically still as powerful ever or less powerful is semantic. The point is that he either lost alot of power or lost the ability to use the power he had. Take your pick. The issue where Nabu is trapped and I think the next 2 or so deal mainly with how limited Hector was like that. Much like he was when he and Nabu got into a short fight during Black Reign.

Where is Nabu called a sorceror?

Nabu is called a sorceror all the time.

And the context of DOV itself clearly implies that Nabu is the most powerful Lord of Order and Hector, while a big gun, lacks the neccessary experience to fill his boots. But if you think a previous issue sheds light to make this not at bad for ol' Hec, I'm all ears as pertains to a reference.

Did you read the Fate post? Nabu is not a Lord of Order. Nabu is a human being. A Lord of Order used his body as a host. For convenience, the nameless lord is sometimes referred to as "Nabu" but that is not his name. The Nameless One may very well be the most powerful Lord of Order but Hector is by far the most powerful Dr.Fate and an agent of Balance encompassing both Order and Chaos combined, not just Order. He's also more powerful than Nabu as well and has already outdone him.

I'm not up to date on their Pre-Crisis battles. [/B]

I'm not talking post-Crisis. Unless specified everything I'm using is all present continuity. No alternate futures a la Legion, and no pre-Crisis.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
That's not true. Thunderbolt in our world wouldn't be able to run after and restrain someone on his own like he does in that page.

All I see is him sticking his hand out and telling him not to attack. Doesn't look to me like the kid resisted much if at all, making it hard to call it a "restraining".

For that matter if Jakeem were not around, as he's not in that scene, Thunderbolt wouldn't be able to do anything at all but just stand there. When Johnny Thunder died all Thunderbolt could do was hover over his body where it stood. With no commands he couldn't act. And as I told you Thunderbolt was part of a strike team. I'm not going to scan the whole book and you probably would still give some wierd interpretation to deny it anyway. But he's acting purely on his own. Proven by the fact that Jakeem is not even in the area.

Did you ignore the scans I gave you of Thunderbolt in our world ignoring Jakeem''s request and actually fighting AGAINST him? He is capable of doing that; it just takes a LOT of concentration and thus significantly lessens his effectiveness. As for this "strike team", I'd like to see it, as well as the context (to see if it actually shows he clearly acted of his own accord, or if it's a case where he may've just been given an order off-panel)

In any event, talking of his own free will as he did in your scan is something he can easily do, even when his words go against his master's wishes. But thanks for totally ignoring my scans.

Whether he's technically still as powerful ever or less powerful is semantic. The point is that he either lost alot of power or lost the ability to use the power he had. Take your pick. The issue where Nabu is trapped and I think the next 2 or so deal mainly with how limited Hector was like that. Much like he was when he and Nabu got into a short fight during Black Reign.

Again, I'm waiting for a reference. I'd like to see whether he was actually much less effective or if this is going to turn out like your Thunderbolt scan that "proves" he can do things in the pen he can't do in the "real" world. If you'd just tell me the #, I'd check it out for myself. The context of DOV implies he's as powerful as ever, but again, I'm open to new evidence. I'd just like get an # so I can check it out for myself, rather than taking your word for it.

Nabu is called a sorceror all the time.

So ... Reference?

Did you read the Fate post? Nabu is not a Lord of Order. Nabu is a human being. A Lord of Order used his body as a host. For convenience, the nameless lord is sometimes referred to as "Nabu" but that is not his name.

Well, the "nameless lord" that calls itself "Nabu" is the one who fought Mordru and Spectre. He's the one who stated he's the most powerful magical being of the 9th age, and he's the one that I'm referring to.

The Nameless One may very well be the most powerful Lord of Order but Hector is by far the most powerful Dr.Fate and an agent of Balance encompassing both Order and Chaos combined, not just Order. He's also more powerful than Nabu as well and has already outdone him.

Nabu/the nameless one was clearly intended to be more powerful than Hector in DOV. I'm aware Hector's outdone him elsewhere. Hector's also had poor showings against Johnny Sorrow, Black Adam, and Neron, however. Fates in general are inconsistent. The only uber showings of Hector I've seen are vs. Mordru (the second fight between them, as the first wasn't that impressive up until Mordru tried to don the helmet) and Curse (again, the second fight between them).

I'm not talking post-Crisis. Unless specified everything I'm using is all present continuity. No alternate futures a la Legion, and no pre-Crisis.

Earlier, you mentioned you were using Pre-Crisis Fate/Spectre battles. If they've had so many Post-Crisis, I would like the references, so I can check them out for myself.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan All I see is him sticking his hand out and telling him not to attack. Doesn't look to me like the kid resisted much if at all, making it hard to call it a "restraining".

It doesn't matter how hard you think Shocko is resisting. The act itself of restraining him is the issue. Thunderbolt wouldn't be able to go after and restrain Shocko at all in our world if not asked to first. Your own scan shows this. And I've already mentioned that T-bolt commits various acts throughout the story as part of a team. I'm not going to upload the whole book.

Did you ignore the scans I gave you of Thunderbolt in our world ignoring Jakeem''s request and actually fighting AGAINST him?

WTF? Please don't tell me you mean this?

http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thunderbolt1vz1.jpg

Because this happens inside the pen!

In any event, talking of his own free will as he did in your scan is something he can easily do, even when his words go against his master's wishes. But thanks for totally ignoring my scans.

And thanks for again showing that you don't really know what you're talking about and are just filling pages with misleading pictures. And distorted commentary on said pictures.

Again, I'm waiting for a reference. I'd like to see whether he was actually much less effective or if this is going to turn out like your Thunderbolt scan that "proves" he can do things in the pen he can't do in the "real" world. If you'd just tell me the #, I'd check it out for myself.

This really shouldn't be necessary. How can you go on and on trying to argue that Darkseid is as powerful as Dr.Fate without even this basic understanding of Dr.Fate's power? Anyway, I don't have the exact issue numbers but they're after Black Reign and before DoV.

So ... Reference?

Nabu being called a sorcerer. You actually need a referrence for this huh? I'll give you one, plus yet another referrence to Hector being more powerful than previous Dr.Fates. From JSA #4.

Mordru:"You've changed, Fate. Not what I expected. Your power is more vast."

Nabu/the nameless one was clearly intended to be more powerful than Hector in DOV. I'm aware Hector's outdone him elsewhere.

No Hector hasn't. Hector outdid Nabu, not the Nameless One.

Hector's also had poor showings against Johnny Sorrow, Black Adam, and Neron, however.

All while he had the mental blocks, a major detail which you continuously leave out. And I've already told you when those blocks were removed so I doubt you're doing it accidently.

Earlier, you mentioned you were using Pre-Crisis Fate/Spectre battles. If they've had so many Post-Crisis, I would like the references, so I can check them out for myself.

Which is why I said "unless specified". I specified that I was using pre-Crisis that one time. I'd have to go searching to get the issue numbers so you'll have to look for them yourself. i'll spare anymore effort since it's pointless to keep going because you don't accept anything that hurts your argument no matter how plain and clear it is. But here's a referrence to Nabu as a sorcerer for the road.