you're right jack knows more about liz's feelings that she does cause liz tries to convince herslef that she doesn't want jack but jack knows better...he KNOWS liz is doing it to save her own skin just like HE would if HE had the chance. I LOVE the almost kiss that happend after it and so did jack you see how he smiles even more after the almost kiss? it's almost like he's saying congrats you've just graduated from the school of piracy!
Originally posted by tee_pirategirl
I mean each time I saw the film the chemistry was like "no way liz and will are gonna last it's jack and liz FOR REAL" but when you listen to Ted and Terry they make you loose ALL HOPE. they make it sound like the kisswas all business!
I ask you this :couldn't have liz just flirted with jack intensly pushing him back to where the shackles where making it look like she was about to kiss him but actually just buy herself time to shackle jack up?
YES SHE COULD HAVE
BUT SHE DIDN'T
she wanted the kiss to happen! she WANTED a taste of being a pirate since she was little!!! she WAS curiouse and SHE WAS BEING LIKE JACK by saving her own skin at the expense of others(jack) but by using jack she doesn't BREAK IT between them she MAKES IT and jack knows it why else would he smile and go all "pirate" he knows that now she IS a pirate.
wow...you talk so much sense. This is so True...and this is what all of us J/E shippers on this forum have been saying all along. Look how he is smiling and admiring her, even as she turns and walks away from him on the Pearl...leaving him to face the Kracken..who he faces with all the bravery and heroism he can muster up = because up to this point he had been running scared from the Kracken..and now...after he realizes he's just won the girl...he faces the Kracken like a man instead of a coward.....and yes, I do believe that part of the reason that she chained him there was to take away the temptation....because after Jack returns to the Pearl when he could have easily escaped to that land and says in regards to the Pearl (who is Jack's Lady Love up to this point).."She's only a ship, mate." Ha...so now Elizabeth realizes Jack not only is a physical attraction for her, but he has just become her hero and he has proven that he is a good man "there will come a moment when you have a chance to do the right thing.....you're going to have a chance to do something really courageous and when you do you'll discover something, that you're a good man...Oh I have faith in you....want to know why...CURIOSITY...." So now...Jack has become the man that she has always dreamed of since she was a little girl...A Strong, Beautiful, Courageous, Good-Hearted...Pirate....Because although Jack is a good man, he still is a Pirate...and same for Elizabeth...she is a good-woman with moral ethics..but she is a Pirate...and she will do things in an under-handed way to get what she wants....holding Beckett at gun-point to take the letter of marque, getting Jack drunk on the island so she can build the signal fire with the rum and trees, kissing Jack and chaining him to the mast....And, many of us still believe that Jack would have stayed on the Pearl even without Liz's help......he knew the Kracken was after him...why would he endanger anyone else after what he has just done ...he brought the longboat back because he knew that was the crew's and Elizabeth's only escape from the Pearl....the Kracken wanted Jack and the Pearl...
It's unbelievable that these people on KTTC claim to be die-hard fans of POTC 1 and 2 - yet they are w/e shippers - and ignore everything that points to Jack and Liz and some of these same clues spell doom for Liz and Will....the dress sinking, the marriage interrupted because FATE INTERVENES...but what really disappoints me about some of these people on KTTC...they tear down JACK...who we all know is the money maker and the reason people returned to see DMC again and again...because DMC was all about Jack and what Jack wants,,....and what Jack wants is ELIZABETH....(it's not the key and the chest to Davy Jones because the compass didn't work for him when he thought that's what he wanted most in this world).....they have the nerve to say Jack was selfish when he returned to the Pearl because he was further endangering the crew's and Elizabeth's lives by returning to the Pearl because he knew the Kracken wanted him...that is sooooo crazy..Jack returned the LONGBOAT to them, else they had no way to escape....
JACK IS THE HERO>>>that's why they show him in that shot holding the rifle with the sun glow around him and Elizabeth looking up to him and then clinging to his leg "Jack, you've returned, I knew you would...I have faith in you...." (what she could have been thinking)....she didn't run down the stairs to be with Will when he fell...she choose to stay with Jack and hold onto his leg...people on KTTC said she did that to help steady Jack so he could fire the rifle and make a good shot....man, oh man, that's such a weak argument....but there is no changing their mind...they are convinced that this trilogy is all about William Turner....
yeah at first I thought she was holding jack's leggs to steady him too but the smile on her face as she sees jack and holds on to his leggs like she doesn't wanna let go?! that's priceless!!!! I also love it that before she kisses william at the end of curse of the black pearl:
Swann:......he is a blacksmith afterall
Liz: No! he is a pirate!
she WANTS a pirate. she NEEDS a pirate. she IS a pirate.and will is a swashbuckler but NOT a pirate. it's sweet how she is trying to convince herself that will IS what she needs that he IS a pirate...when it's the exact opposit!
Originally posted by tee_pirategirl
yeah at first I thought she was holding jack's leggs to steady him too but the smile on her face as she sees jack and holds on to his leggs like she doesn't wanna let go?! that's priceless!!!! I also love it that before she kisses william at the end of curse of the black pearl:
Swann:......he is a blacksmith afterall
Liz: No! he is a pirate!
she WANTS a pirate. she NEEDS a pirate. she IS a pirate.and will is a swashbuckler but NOT a pirate. it's sweet how she is trying to convince herself that will IS what she needs that he IS a pirate...when it's the exact opposit!
True...I always thought that line was corny...and that she was saying he was a Pirate proves that she wants a Pirate...but Will is no Pirate...or else they would have left on the Pearl with Jack and jumped off the wall with him...instead of staying behind in Port Royal and...for Pete's sAke look how Will is dressed at the beginning of POTC/DMC....he doesn't look anything like a Pirate...he looks almost like an Ice Cream Cone...like Norrington in POTC 1......I don't like Will...I hate the Will/Liz relationship...it's just boring and meaningless to the movie...now Jack/Liz is hot and it's exciting and has deep meaning for the two characters .....
hmmmm i think she's holding onto him to steady HERSELF cause at that point, he is the thing in her life that is most dependable--- oddly---- because she has always said he was a good man and he just came back for her, confirming all her theories.
plus, she was trying to make the shot and got grabbed by the kraken, so she's feeling pretty vulnerable, she grabs on to Jack cause she trusts that she is safest with him--- that if the kraken grabbed her, he would be able to keep her steady.
A common element in film is reversal of a main characters choices/fortunes/ideals....
when LovelyOne was discussing things earlier on, (and please dont hate me for this, its just a thought that popped into my head) what came into my head was that Elizabeth is going to be given one more chance to save people (herself, Will, whoever) by betraying someone close to her... and this time she won't do it. It makes me think that in fact, she will start being less selfish and get sacrificial. Perhaps trade her own life to protect loved ones.
After hanging around Will and Jack, BOTH of whom are actually very self-sacrificing when it comes down to it, one would hope she would pick up on that.
cause lets face it, Liz is a bit of a spoiled brat. she's used to getting whatever she wants, whenever she wants it. She has a father who doats on her and lavishes everything on her, she has men falling for her left and right, when she is kidnapped the entire royal navy goes out to save her and a ton of them end up dying during that quest...
she decides she wants Will, orders a lavish wedding... etc.
so in movie 2, she is suddenly realizing she CANT have everything she wants--- because she CANT marry Will and still have Jack, and she CANT give in to her passion for Jack and still keep Will around. make sense?
which all goes back to jacks theory "what a man can do, and what a man cant do."
If any of the main characters need redemption at this point, its Liz.
She's has been very sketch lately. If you are a Will/Liz shipper, you probably hate her at this point for hurting Will... if you are a Liz/Jack shipper, you probably hate her for not realizing sooner her attracting to Jack... and for acting on it wrongly. either way she needs major brownie points in 3 to make her right for either guy. her character is in crisis and she has to turn things around a bit, make some solid decisions, that sort of thing.
cause i agree that Liz is the most selfish. I think at this point Jack is more noble than her, and she knows it...
but here's another argument for why the writers should NOT write off liz and jack...
I mean seriously guys, if the audience were really die-hard about Will and Liz, they all would have HATED movie 2, cause Liz is all over Jack the whole time. but what was the response on movie 2? breaking every blockbuster record like, ever. this proves that the audience is in full support of the liz/jack side trip. enough to follow it to conclusion. ya know?
Amen to that!!!! why does she even wanna fool herself if I were her me and Jack would have been married by now LOL but I guess Jack wouldn't be intrested in her if she was a lovesick puppy what he actually loves about liz is that he can't bend her to his will like he does with others she is truely her own person and a pirate even worse than Jack cause Jack openly admits he's a pirate and a thief but Liz goes around talking about being honorable than....WHAM she does the biggest act of pracy in the film.
I also hate it that will is so whelpy I mean if it was JACK's girl and HE saw HER kissing another guy he would SO confront her about it instead of just sitting in a boat going: "where is jack?" all bitter and childish.
I have several interpretations of the final scene of 2.
the first is that, as Will is clanging his knife and Liz is ignoring him, lost in her grief, Will is reviewing everything and realizing that Him and Elizabeth are no longer suited for each other, and he should have seen this coming. He is deciding that considering the fact that they dont match up, he should give Elizabeth the chance of choosing what she really wants. Thats why he brings up Jack.
My second translation is that when Elizabeth says the bs on the longboat about Jack electing to stay behind to give them a chance, Will and her had a secret eye conversation and Will understood what she did--- that the kiss was meant to distract Jack to chain him up, or convince him to stay--- that either way Will figured out the kiss was a persuasionary tactic.
If this be the case, then I also think Will is thinking about things and wondering if he still respects/trusts Elizabeth enough to marry her--- which might also be going through her head. Like, she is realizing she didnt just betray Jack, she also betrayed Will and everyone she saved.
Either way, i think Will knows the line "he elected to stay behind to give us a chance" is complete bs... because it isn't consistent with what Will knows of Jack at that point. If the first movie had followed the original script and Jack had already done something similar, that would be one thing. But Will considers Jack a full pirate and therefore would not believe Jack had stayed behind of his own free will. So he either knows Liz chained him, or he thinks she traded favors with him, if you know what i mean.
im not frustrated with him... but i am not rooting for him.
IMO "all's fair in love and war"
so if Will cant keep Liz interested, thats no one's fault but his own.
I feel for him, cause i know his life is kind of falling apart, but its time for him to step up and be a man and deal with these things.
I just prefer it when people are open and honest. Will spent the WHOLE first film trying to work up the courage to tell Elizabeth he loved her.
The instant Jack starts feeling attracted to Elizabeth, he makes it very clear. He basically tells her flat out, we are alike i want you i think we should get married or at least explore what could happen between the two of us... and then he leaves it up to her, to make up her mind about things.
he isn't afraid of getting shot down-- he's just putting it out there cause he respects her enough to be honest with her. lol.
okay speaking of when Will gets whipped--- LOL----
this scene is incredibly symbolic. It means something big.
IMO, it means his father is going to hurt him in order to prevent someone else from hurting him more. Possibly ELizabeth... possibly Davy Jones... who knows.
the point is, this scene is COMPLETELY random and they WOULD NOT have just stuck it in there for no reason...
it is OBVIOUSLY foreshadowing something.
In some ways, i think it is representative of Will losing his niavete and coming to grips with the evil in the world... coming to see that even though he did nothing wrong, he got hurt... and he will have those scars forever, ya know?
Also the idea that sometimes it takes pain to bring people closer together.
WHat his father did was incredibly hard, but afterwords they began connecting and WIll began understanding his father more. this might play into the idea that when Liz kissed Jack, it really hurt Will, but it will actually bring them closer together. (or, as I am hoping, will drive them apart forever, tee hee 😉).
Maybe, also, this is a lesson that WIll will be able to bring to others who are close to him... like ELizabeth. That its okay to hurt the ones you love in order to spare them more hurt later on or something.
I was ALSO thinking... it might be the idea of Liz/Will's love or Liz/Jack's love (depending on who they go with) that brings Davy Jones into some kind of redeeming light. Like, he will see true love again and it will inspire him to help the pirates or whatever.
If he and Jack do fight, I could see that possibly it looks like Davy will win, but then Elizabeth shows up or something, and it gets him---
i'm just rambling. LOL.
I don't know WHY I am frustrated with him I really don't the writers actually make him a likeable character and I want to like him as much as jack but I can't. I like him on some level he's sweet but I think he should be more like pirate a bit more like jack. you know? not afraid to say what he wants to. i think the reason I'm mad at him right now is that he actually let US like the fact that liz and jack kiss. if the liz/will relationship was satisfactory to our taste we wouldn't crave more liz/jack we would want it to stop! so I think I am mad cause the chemistry with them is THERE he just doesn't USE it but jack.....well he DOES do something about you're so right kate he says it flat out I like you...and he actually sort of proposes to her in a wierd sorta way when they are on the pearl and he doesn't loose face when she says no if it was will who had been in jack's place and she'd said no well...the curiosity scene wouldn't have existed now would it?
LOL tee_pirategirl, i agree with everythng you are saying.
yeah... i like Will... but not the same way I like Jack. they make me feel different.
I mean, if I had to choose between them...
Will makes me feel safe and comfortable, he will always be there for me, always be polite to me and treat me like a lady...
but i dont always want to be treated like a lady, ya know? i want to be crazy and impulsive, i want to feel confused sometimes--- to not know for sure, to feel the mystery. i want the forbidden fruit.
thats Jack, ya know?
but somehow, one of them is going to have to come full circle. Cause Liz needs stability just as much as she needs excitement..
so either Jack is going to have to become more stable, or Will is going to have to become WAY more exciting. lol.
Originally posted by katelovespirate
LOL tee_pirategirl, i agree with everythng you are saying.yeah... i like Will... but not the same way I like Jack. they make me feel different.
I mean, if I had to choose between them...Will makes me feel safe and comfortable, he will always be there for me, always be polite to me and treat me like a lady...
but i dont always want to be treated like a lady, ya know? i want to be crazy and impulsive, i want to feel confused sometimes--- to not know for sure, to feel the mystery. i want the forbidden fruit.
thats Jack, ya know?
but somehow, one of them is going to have to come full circle. Cause Liz needs stability just as much as she needs excitement..
so either Jack is going to have to become more stable, or Will is going to have to become WAY more exciting. lol.
I agree with the wanting to be treated like a lady, but not always thing. But I think Will could be a wild child now and again. He is perfecto for me!
Originally posted by tee_pirategirl
you're right jack knows more about liz's feelings that she does cause liz tries to convince herslef that she doesn't want jack but jack knows better...he KNOWS liz is doing it to save her own skin just like HE would if HE had the chance. I LOVE the almost kiss that happend after it and so did jack you see how he smiles even more after the almost kiss? it's almost like he's saying congrats you've just graduated from the school of piracy!
thats the thing...because they are both pirates..they clash..they constantly betray one another...so how can they be together properly?
What we learn with Jack at the end of movie 2..he actually betrays Liz's trust..and whilst he's getting away and has left her to die..he basically realizes that he just cant hack it...she's on his mind..he cant bear to betray and leave the one he loves to die...so he goes back to her..he cant betray her..he's too emotionally attached to her..
With Liz..she's learning..a bit late..with her she betrayed the man..left him to die..actually followed through..but afterward?? Her guilt and reaction like that is something she never usually shows when she has betrayed someone. It shows us that with this man..she makes an exception..she cant bare the thought that she left him to die..it haunts her.I doubt she will EVER do that to him again once she has him back..after it crushed her so much..it was her true wakeup call to Jack..
so as a pirate/pirate couple..they are actually becoming pretty compatible together..pirate/pirate...is basically a NO NO because all pirates care about are themselves, they constantly betray people..even their friends..but with these two..there is something special..they have something REAL there..its not just sex..and its not just friendship ..and this causes them to feel guilty once they have betrayed the other.Jack feels it when he leaves Liz to die..and Liz felt it once she had killed Jack...I think they are going to learn that they cant actually betray one another because they love one another so much..and this makes a pirate/pirate relationship work in the long run..IMO
This thread was initially here to stamp out the W/E belief on KttC that Liz is only is feeling bad for being unfaithful to will..YEAH RIGHT!
and it was here to stamp out theit believ that she is feeling bad about leaving man for dead to save herself..and it not giving the satisfaction she thought it would..YEAH RIGHT ..she's done it before and was perfectly FINE WITH IT!
its becuase she betrayed him like last time but this time she has feelings for him...