The Therapy Thread for stressed out people about jack/liz open 24/7

the reason that ted/terry havent mentioned anything about the j/l relationship could actually be because they dont want to give anything away, and the fact that they ARE hinting about the w/l thing should give us hope, i mean, they made this movie so big by SHOCKING us, so if they went and hinted the ending, then how would they get it past the billion mark, i mean, they must see that it only went so far is b/c of the j/l kiss, b/c w/o that they probably would have made it about the same as the 1st!!!

so if they rejected the tradition theory of DUALISM, then that pretty much invalidates a lot of the Liz, Jack conversations about being a good man versus being a selfish, immoral man... in a strange way.

that would mean that it doesnt MATTER whether Jack (or any character) is GOOD or BAD, rather, what matters is that they ARE... they EXIST and LIVE, and their growth in ANY direction is seen as more important than an ultimate wrong or right.

next thing, we will bring up Platos allegory of the cave, and Maslows hierarchy of needs, and then we will have it all figured out... LOL... 🙂

AHHHH...i dont think i understood a word of what you just said!!!!lol🙂

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is often depicted as a pyramid consisting of five levels: the four lower levels are grouped together as deficiency needs associated with physiological needs, while the top level is termed growth needs associated with psychological needs. While our deficiency needs must be met, our being needs are continually shaping our behaviour. The basic concept is that the higher needs in this hierarchy only come into focus once all the needs that are lower down in the pyramid are mainly or entirely satisfied. Growth forces create upward movement in the hierarchy, whereas regressive forces push prepotent needs further down the hierarchy.

Platos allegory of the cave

Imagine prisoners who have been chained since childhood deep inside a cave. Not only are their limbs immobilized by the chains; their heads are chained as well so that their eyes are fixed on a wall.

Behind the prisoners is an enormous fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised walkway, along which shapes of various animals, plants, and other things are carried. The shapes cast shadows on the wall, which occupy the prisoners' attention. When one of the shape-carriers speaks, an echo against the wall causes the prisoners to believe that the words come from the shadows.

The prisoners engage in what appears to us to be a game - naming the shapes as they come by. This, however, is the only reality that they know, even though they are seeing merely shadows of images. They are thus conditioned to judge the quality of one another by their skill in quickly naming the shapes and dislike those who begin to play poorly.

Suppose a prisoner is released and compelled to stand up and turn around.

His eyes will be blinded by the firelight, and the shapes passing will appear less real than their shadows.

Similarly, if he is dragged up out of the cave into the sunlight, his eyes will be so blinded that he will not be able to see anything.

At first, he will be able to see darker shapes such as shadows and, only later, brighter and brighter objects.

The last object he would be able to see is the sun, which, in time, he would learn to see as that object which provides the seasons and the courses of the year, presides over all things in the visible region, and is in some way the cause of all these things that he has seen.

(This part of the allegory, incidentally, closely matches Plato's metaphor of the sun which occurs near the end of The Republic, Book VI.)

Once enlightened, so to speak, the freed prisoner would no doubt want to return to the cave to free "his fellow bondsmen". The problem, however, lies in the other prisoners' not wanting to be freed: descending back into the cave would require that the freed prisoner's eyes adjust again, and for a time, he would be one of the ones identifying shapes on the wall. His poor eyesight would severly impair his ability to name the shapes, and thus the other prisoners would dislike him to the degree that they have no trust in him and thus take his attempts to free them with murderous agression.

ANd you can enjoy working out how these apply!!!! 😄

sorry that last post was not very anti-stress... it probably just stressed everyone out more. LOL. sorry guys.

WHO would that apply to exactly? I understand the concept, but am having trouble relating it to the movie. 🙂sorry, I'm a bit slow...lol

i'll go off and rant on that in the morning... im going to sleep now... 🙂

well even if ur stressed out u could also post..

the thing is that we help u in any way so u wont get worried. if u have some kind of doubts or something then we coud clarify

also u can talk about other things if it helps u get ur mind at ease 🙂

Yes, I am stressed out over this crazy movie. I so want Jack and Liz to be together...have ever since I saw him rescue her the very first time I ever saw the movie...the very first time I saw Liz and Jack together on screen...being a historical romance junkie...I was convinced that they were the couple...then as the movie unfolded i was disappointed..but just glad to get to see Johnny D in action and so loving the character of Captain Jack Sparrow. Then, when DMC came out...as each scene unfolded between jack and liz...the deeper I fell...I went bizerk...because I have wanted this coupling for so long...I left the movie thinking...okay, this is great...Jack and Liz...but then you read KTTC and all the leaked scripts and interviews and suppose endings to AWE and it's like "why the heck did they do this?" why did they tease the audience with this great chemistry between this great couple for it just to be a bump in the road for the Will/Liz pairing....to me it's so much more...because of the chemistry...how much I enjoy seeing Jack and LIz flirt, fight, kiss, everything...whereas, I really truly could care less if there was ever another scene between Will/Liz cuz I feel no connection between these two...I'm not anti-Will..I do understand his purpose to the story...but I just don't think he is the man for Liz.

But, I guess I should get myself prepared. Cuz as Katelovespirates says....just don't see what would happen to Will if he doesn't go with Liz...I mean I could...but not sure if it's acceptable...it is to me...I really could just see Will's character growing to the part that he accepts that Liz and he have grown in different directions...and that they just aren't meant to be together...it happens everyday in the real world...time heals all things...surely, Will is a much stronger man than to cut his heart out simply because Liz realizes she is in love with someone else. Besides, Will's never known another woman but Liz....he needs to explore some before he commits.

My ultimate ending to AWE...is Will realizing he doesn't want to be married to someone who longs to be with someone else...I think the movie would be awesome...if the entire movie we think it is going to be W/L...and that Jack and Liz deny their feelings...and in fact, sacrifice those feelings thinking it's what the other wants and for Will...and then in the end Will realizes what's going on...and in turn, sacrifices for his two friends...Will could be a strong, independent character...if not, then his character hasn't grown at all over the trilogy. It makes Will's character seem weaker...if his only purpose in life is Liz....

wow lovehtemtigers, that was a really great post. you made my day. its beautiful. it reminded me why i fell for liz and jack in the first place!

its so true... though i admire the character of will, i never enjoy scenes with him and liz like i enjoy the ones with liz and jack... during those i am either laughing hysterically, or overcome with angst and worry, or having my breath taken away. lol.

MAYBE Will will find a new mentor in Norrington, whose honor and decency in film one graciously made way for Liz's feelings... and Will will remember that and decide he wants to be like that, and therefore step aside.

I think it would be a fabulous final scene if Liz and Will look like they are together, and Jack is walking off with those whores, and then suddenly Will turns to Liz and says something like, "If you deny this now, you will just be denying it your whole life. You know I love you, but I think it's time for you to take that pirate life you've always wanted." And Liz runs off to find Jack, and pushes the whores out of the way, and slaps him or something, and says something cheesy about realizing what she wanted, and they kiss and board the pearl together.

And then Norrington and Will could share some funny line about giving chase.

Gee... i cant wait till the DVD comes out, i think the commentary is going to be so helpful...

I think the deleted scenes will be helpful.

Yeah, I wonder if the actors will give insight into what they think their characters are thinking during certain scenes....that will be helpful to know where this is headed...in a way.

&&& yea in the direcotrs/actors commentary on the specila features. see its good to be positive yay!! KUMBAYA!!(spelling lol)

anyways its unbelieveble bc at the beginning of the movie the jack/liz relationship was like a "what if" but ppl werent like obesesed nor rooting for jack/liz shipper. we didnt think there was gonna be a sequel. plus we all that everybody was happy and bla bla.

but when i saw the kiss!! woah. the flirtung scenes did not surprise me bc he flirst and she does too, but again i was a lil retarded(a little???) and didnt pay much attention. but the kiss, wow that blew me away. thats when i started annilyzing the movie, and it all made sense really. the only thing i forgot to annalize back then was wills character lol. i totally forgot about will-i feel really aweful

but that kiss really sealed the movie with a golden button.

Wow great posts! 😄
these remind me of when i first saw movie 2.... (I was on holiday in bulgaria for the first 2 weeks it opened and hard NOTHING about the movie at all....)

And i was shocked to say the least. I thought it was so BOLD to make the movie in the j/L direction...

I'll b honest here girls...in movie 1 i was disppointed that will/liz got together because from the 'island' scene i thought J/L had great chemistry!....But i knew it would end W/L because it was disney and they didnt show anything discreetly to say she would not end up with him....

And then im sitting there throughout movie 2 with my heart in my throat....not believing what i am seeing on screen! my boyfriend thought i was having a fit or something because i was almost jumping up and down in my seat!

But the one thing that struck me about it (because i had not heard spoilers or seen advert or listened to interviews because i was on holiday) was the fact that it MADE SENSE!
...It was hott, it was needed and it made so much sense to make these two characters attracted to eachother.

They THINK they are polar opposites, but they secretly crave the others freedom...they needed it and this was so clear from the film.
The 'get' eachother in a way no one else in the film does...

the sad thing now is the fact that no one has a plausible answer for what will become of Will if liz chooses jack...and this is a sad thing because it means that Will is not a multifunctional role (in 1 and 2) and therefore he does not have a real plot if elizabeth is not involved...and thats how the character felt to me in the first film also....for me there just is not enough there for him to 'go it alone' without elizabeth.....

My only hope is that the writers can change this by three....

LOL its TOTALLY going to be Jack Liz honestly!!..I'm really excited!! because I just put how far each character has gotten so far over that 12 steps thing and its definatley not Will/Liz from what I see its Jack/Liz..it fits perfectly...what ever they each accept after meeting Tia as the elixir to persue IS the elixir they will return home with 😄..and you know whats freaky?? with Will it actually appears to be a more of a sinister elixir...as in the Flying Dutchman..and davy jones..very supernatural feel to his one..I have a feeling its being made to look one way with Will(his dad)..but the whole davy vibe is there too as he accepts is elixir..because he's actually refusing to get the key and help Jack with Davy Jones..and then he ACCEPTS it after meeting Tia.

they both long something from eachother

even though they are both oppisites they also compare to eachother, they console eachother spiritually.

Liz shows him that gold, and other material things are not what makes a man.

jack shows liz that it is important to know what u want, to not neglect that feeling and always except ur heart, what u truly desire.

they both help eachother some what in this way. Jack has found his ultimate soulmate and has found someone he could actually love without being a material object.

these 2 are meant for eachother and meant to be with eachother. its a bond-nuff said lol.

Here..I put it in order of which character is moving the fastest in the story(Jack..then Will then Liz=SLOW COACH):

1) The Ordinary World. The hero is taken out of the ordinary world and is put into the Special World, in which the hero is a fish out of water.

Jack: Is in his ordinary world with material possessions but has LIZ on the brain and is acting like a fish out of water when we first meet him (compass pointing to and from her)

Will: Will is in his ordinary world with Elizabeth..then he gets thrown into the special world of Jack again😂

Elizabeth: is in her ordinary world with Will..then all of a sudden she is placed into the special world with Jack..she's confused and scared with all of her new emotions for him flying about..

2) The Call to Adventure. Thrust into the Special World, the hero is presented with a problem, challenge or adventure.

Jack: Will asks him to help save Elizabeth

Will: Jack asks Will to help him in pursuing the chest of Davy Jones/Key/ship

Elizabeth: Jack comes back for her at the end..and is basically asking Liz to be his obligation(partner) saying he needs her in his life, He wants her in his life to feel strong and brave...he wants her to be a "pirate" with him.

3) Refusal of the Call. The hero is reluctant to undertake the quest as presented. Fear of the unknown is one of mankind's greatest fears.

Jack: Jack refuses to help Liz cuz of his little fear of her (at first) 😂

Will: refuses to help Jack with Davy and the flying Dutchman/chest (shows no fear of it which is freaky)

Elizabeth: Is afraid to go with Jack at the end..she's in denial still, she thinks she should stick with her old way of life..fear of the unknown..is fear of Jack...Jack saying Pirate to her is what probably scares her off..he's saying she is one and he should be with her and this is what makes her finally leave IMO..she knows she wants him but is terrified to go with him.

4) Mentor. The mentor is a Merlin-like character who meets or joins with the hero, offering advice, guidance or magical equipment.

Jack: Tia helps him gain Liz by putting Will on the dutchman..she knows he wants her but is refusing to believe its the most important thing to him "Or do know..but you are loath to claim it as your own" So she also gives him the Jar of dirt which helps him get over material possessions and stop lying to himself about what he really wants(heart)..Jack being Jack..actually needs more of a shove than a gentle push in the right direction...I personally think he accepts her in his life the second she walks into it..but we don't see this because he doesn't look at the compass again until the end..I don't think Jack realizes either until he looks in the compass..when he looks at it he actually looks pretty surprised at what he sees (pointing at Liz)

Will: She gives him the location to his father..and also the dutchman..which one is the elixir?? as he's on there he shows a GREAT interest in both...whats also interesting is the fact he shows an interest in Tia here..as if she's trying to guide him in that way too.

Elizabeth: Meets with Tia..here she begins to feel guilty for refusing a man who needs her in his life..she refused the call to adventure...Tia offers her help to regain him

5) Crossing the First Threshold. This is the point where the hero makes the decision to accept the quest.

Jack: Willingly Takes Liz on board..which is something because he was refusing to be with her before hand..Its funny how he tries to distract himself away from her and she shouts "JACK!" to him and he looks as if he thinks she's about to explode or something..he looks scared😂..but then they have their little close moment..and Jack says "it shows you what you want most in this world"..and watch his eyes there. They show such a wanting towards her..there's a zoom in too to make it more significant and he looks at her lips. I think thats the point where he willingly takes her on board...as in emotionally..not because he wants help with he compass..(well he does..but he also accepts her too)..

Will: (freaky again) he willingly wants to look for the ship..whilst on there he says he will pursue the means to save his father..but I'm not sure thats the real elixir...I think its the ship *cough* Will/Davy *cough*..then Tia's "a touch of destiny again"..and he also kinda flirts with Tia/shows off in front of her about his "bravery" There's not a WHIFT of her helping him gain Liz back

Elizabeth: accepts to rescue Jack..pursue her elixir...not a whift of her helping her gain Will back..she gains Will back before she even sees the mentor..she gains him back before she even accepts her TRUE quest..Will's not the man she REALLY wants 😱 "all I want is to find will" BS LIZ!

Jack actually gets further than the acceptance of the adventure..so does Will..but Liz only JUST ends on it all to confuse us ladies and gents..everyone thinks she ended it on step 3 becuse it was the climax of the movie..but she actually took 2 more quick steps before the movie closed

So yeah Ted and Terry were right about Movie 2 having all the closure you need for the love triangle..because each character HAS met the mentor and accepted persuing their true elixir before the movie closes 😄

It seems as if Tia gives them 2 options when she meets each character..

With Jack she appears to be helping him with the "false elixir"..but knows what his true elixir is (liz) and that's what she is really helping him gain.

With Will she gives him the location to the Dutchman "false elixir" he accepted that as a way to help Liz, now that I think of it..but Tia knows he wants his father..and will want his father more as soon as he meets him on there.

With Liz..because the movie ends here, we see the two things really quickly in that very scene..She gives her a drink as a way to "against the pain and the sorrow of losing Jack"..and to "toast to his memory" "ease the pain of letting him go" as a way to movie on in life, forget about Jack..go back with Will her "false elixir"..but guess what..she doesn't drink it..they make a point about that TWICE..Tia then offers the chance to go and get Jack and we see her accept that one...the true elixir..plus all her tears there show us how much she just wants this man and not the stupid Will who is sitting opposite her..

also its a call back to the Odyssey/PotC similarities. Odysseus(Jack) is absent from the scene and his friends all go into Circe, the Witch's hut..she offers them a drugged drink a which is a way for them to forget about Odysseus..all drink but one..that one goes running back to Odysseus.

I think Will's fear is actually not seeing Liz as his number 1 most important thing anymore..he seems afraid to help anyone else but her..like he's constantly trying to prove himself to her and her dad that he can be a great man for her..he really sounds over the top when he says he's doing the noble thing for her etc....She's all he has in his life..until Tia helps that is... she helps find the thing he's wanted his entire life since before he even met Liz.

I dont think Will is ever going to be enough to satisfy Liz.she always expects too much of him and he just cant ever satisfy her like Jack can..I mean mentally and physically..since when does Will ever french kiss her?..when does she ever french kiss Will?..when does she willingly push a kiss on will?..when does will actually save her life?..NEVER...But I think Will just wants/needs someone to be proud of him..and whats more satisfying to a man than making their father proud?

Keira made a great comment in an interview where she said Elizabeth's purpose in going to find Will was rescuing him--- even when she didnt know where he was--- because she didnt think Will could handle himself around Jack Sparrow or in the mission he had set out to do... hahaha, i think thats super funny. Just that Elizabeth seems so adept at "handling" Jack, finding her way around the caribbean, protecting herself, saving herself, manipulating those around her... and Will is still so innocent and naive almost. but i reckon that'll go in 3. hehehe.