What If There Is No Life After Death?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Please stop insulting me. It only shows that you are in position to know anything about a loving god. You anger shows and I think you should stop posting and find something that makes you happy, because I can tell the debating only upsets you.

Did I offend you or did I just give you a comprehensive, detailed response explaining myself in response to what you wrote about me? I have no problem accepting blame for my actions. I told you at the beginning that I don't mean to offend you but if I did then I apologize Shak. I am not here to offend you that would be counterproductive. I just hope that my reply sufficiently explained the whole, "...you don't have morals of your own...." question that you asked me (again, you quoted my words and then commented on them, it was not the other way around).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Did I offend you or did I just give you a comprehensive, detailed response explaining myself in response to what you wrote about me? I have no problem accepting blame for my actions. I told you at the beginning that I don't mean to offend you but if I did then I apologize Shak. I am not here to offend you that would be counterproductive. I just hope that my reply sufficiently explained the whole, "...you don't have morals of your own...." question that you asked me (again, you quoted my words and then commented on them, it was not the other way around).

Read slowly this time so that you don't miss anything.

I think that you are impetuous and so eager to respond to what I say (in an effort to oppose what I say) that you overextend yourself mentally.

Your apology is not accepted.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Morals are based on or derived from a premise: right and wrong. Right and wrong (the concept of the two) come from God. We have this knowledge by way of conscience (which was implanted in us by God).

I don't see it. Cultures prior to Jesus coming had laws and morals and ethics. Cultures prior to the Jews and Moses had laws and morals and ethics. Cultures that existed isolated from the Middle Eastern rise of the monotheistic faith had laws and morals and ethics.

Today we have Atheists that are good people - most of them in fact. The whole "If there was no God I would be a terrible person" just doesn't ring true as there is no statistical evidence to support the idea that an Atheist or the follower of something other then Christianity are prone to being bad people, or that they are amoral, or whatever.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I don't see it. Cultures prior to Jesus coming had laws and morals and ethics. Cultures prior to the Jews and Moses had laws and morals and ethics. Cultures that existed isolated from the Middle Eastern rise of the monotheistic faith had laws and morals and ethics.

Today we have Atheists that are good people - most of them in fact. The whole "If there was no God I would be a terrible person" just doesn't ring true as there is no statistical evidence to support the idea that an Atheist or the follower of something other then Christianity are prone to being bad people, or that they are amoral, or whatever.

I am glad that you are not in denial. You admitted that you don't see it. However, did you read my post in response to Shak's post? I expounded this subject more fully and I already addressed the statement that you made,

"...Cultures prior to Jesus coming had laws and morals and ethics...."

Here is an excerpt from my post:

"...I am just saying that the concept of "government" (no matter how primordial) originally came from God, the Great, Sovereign of the universe. All laws in essence are ensconced in divine law or have a common source in terms of our knowledge of law and why they should exist. Without laws to govern society there would be utter chaos and anarchy. That is why God ordained government no matter how primitive or sophisticated it may be among the myriads of cultures and societies ecumenically.

In conclusion, the knowledge of right and wrong is derived from the true Law-giver and Judge of all the earth: God Almighty. Apart from God there is no independent knowledge or thought of right and wrong. The knowledge that exists does not exist out here in a vacuum, but has been implanted, and indelibly etched in/on our minds through the instrumentality of what the Bible calls "the conscience...."

As you can see I already addressed your statement Samura. Just because a person is not conscious that he/she has a conscience (which is next to impossible all things being equal) or does not know God through Jesus Christ, the knowledge of right and wrong still has its beginning with God. A person does not need to know where something came from for the thing to have a source. A person does not need to be cognizant that they have something for the thing to be present. Can you see this?

Notice I said, "...no matter how primordial...." I already took into consideration all of this world's cultures and societies since the beginning of time. Even the first man and woman received their knowledge of right and wrong from God. This knowledge was passed down to us through the agency of conscience.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I am glad that you are not in denial. You admitted that you don't see it. However, did you read my post in response to Shak's post? I expounded this subject more fully and I already addressed the statement that you made,[/COLOR]

"...Cultures prior to Jesus coming had laws and morals and ethics...."

Well you seem to have construed a meaning from my words that wasn't there - that isn't what I meant. But eh.

Here is an excerpt from my post:

"...I am just saying that the concept of "government" [B](no matter how primordial) originally came from God, the Great, Sovereign of the universe. All laws in essence are ensconced in divine law or have a common source in terms of our knowledge of law and why they should exist. Without laws to govern society there would be utter chaos and anarchy. That is why God ordained government no matter how primitive or sophisticated it may be among the myriads of cultures and societies ecumenically.

So God gets credit for the morals, laws and the like born from other religions and philosophies?

In conclusion, the knowledge of right and wrong is derived from the true Law-giver and Judge of all the earth: God Almighty. Apart from God there is no independent knowledge or thought of right and wrong. The knowledge that exists does not exist out here in a vacuum, but has been implanted, and indelibly etched in/on our minds through the instrumentality of what the Bible calls "the conscience...."

But you have essentially just said that a person does not in fact need to believe in God, or that there is a God, to be a good moral person. Since the majority of ancient cultures were not Christian yet still had law and the like seems to suggest that the ability to socially formulate laws is not tied in with adherence to the Bible or the belief in God.

People and society will, in fact, be able to legislate and moralise in a complete absence of belief in God, Jesus and all that hoo haa.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I am glad that you are not in denial. You admitted that you don't see it. However, did you read my post in response to Shak's post? I expounded this subject more fully and I already addressed the statement that you made,

"...Cultures prior to Jesus coming had laws and morals and ethics...."

Here is an excerpt from my post:

"...I am just saying that the concept of "government" [B](no matter how primordial) originally came from God, the Great, Sovereign of the universe. All laws in essence are ensconced in divine law or have a common source in terms of our knowledge of law and why they should exist. Without laws to govern society there would be utter chaos and anarchy. That is why God ordained government no matter how primitive or sophisticated it may be among the myriads of cultures and societies ecumenically.

In conclusion, the knowledge of right and wrong is derived from the true Law-giver and Judge of all the earth: God Almighty. Apart from God there is no independent knowledge or thought of right and wrong. The knowledge that exists does not exist out here in a vacuum, but has been implanted, and indelibly etched in/on our minds through the instrumentality of what the Bible calls "the conscience...."

As you can see I already addressed your statement Samura. Just because a person is not conscious that he/she has a conscience (which is next to impossible all things being equal) or does not know God through Jesus Christ, the knowledge of right and wrong still has its beginning with God. A person does not need to know where something came from for the thing to have a source. A person does not need to be cognizant that they have something for the thing to be present. Can you see this?

Notice I said, "...no matter how primordial...." I already took into consideration all of this world's cultures and societies since the beginning of time. Even the first man and woman received their knowledge of right and wrong from God. This knowledge was passed down to us through the agency of conscience. [/B]

So Native American societies had their laws dictated to them by God? Buddha did too? So did Mohhamed?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Well you seem to have construed a meaning from my words that wasn't there - that isn't what I meant. But eh.

So God gets credit for the morals, laws and the like born from other religions and philosophies?

But you have essentially just said that a person does not in fact need to believe in God, or that there is a God, to be a good moral person. Since the majority of ancient cultures were not Christian yet still had law and the like seems to suggest that the ability to socially formulate laws is not tied in with adherence to the Bible or the belief in God.

People and society will, in fact, be able to legislate and moralise in a complete absence of belief in God, Jesus and all that hoo haa.

I am talking about the fundamental "need" or "desire" that people have to formulate morals and ethics--this is a derivative of conscience. And the conscience is God-given. Kapeesh? All people have a God-given desire to live moral lives and do things ethically (most ignore this impulse because of sin). But this innate desire or instinct as it were (not animal instinct we are humans) stems from the implanted conscience. I know you try to explain this away but it is true. People just don't want to do right for the betterment of others and for sake of other's welfare and wellbeing "just because." God's inborn conscience is at the very root of it.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
So Native American societies had their laws dictated to them by God? Buddha did too? So did Mohhamed?

No! Sorry but there is no way that I could emphasize that. I guess this is what punctuation marks are for. Anyhoo, have you not read what I have written? I have labored to show you and others that what I am referring to is the (say it with me) "conscience." Not divine dictation.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I am talking about the fundamental "need" or "desire" that people have to formulate morals and ethics--this is a derivative of conscience. And the conscience is God-given. Kapeesh? All people have a God-given desire to live moral lives and do things ethically (most ignore this impulse because of sin). But this innate desire or instinct as it were (not animal instinct we are humans) stems from the implanted conscience. I know you try to explain this away but it is true. People just don't want to do right for the betterment of others and for sake of other's welfare and wellbeing "just because." God's inborn conscience is at the very root of it.

I am not trying to explain away anything. I am merely taking your words at face value. The fact is, from what you have said, is that people have an inbuilt law making component - the conscience. We don't need to believe in God, we can be Atheists of Hindu or Aboriginal dream timers and still have laws and morals and Ethics.

Because apparently God built it into us so we would have it. Unfairly it doesn't matter who made the laws thousands of years before Jesus or the Jews, even though man did in the name of Ma'at or whoever. We don't need to believe in God or the Bible to be good people. We don't need to believe in God to make laws.

In the end, seriously, what I see is that laws and morals are the product of society. The product of the sentient mind. It is the only logical way I see so many varied societies, so many people, making laws, having there own moral code. There is no archaeological proof, no anthropological proof, no philosophical proof God was with any of them. Yet they legislated. And they had moral codes. Man made laws. Man made morals. Even today morals are different from what they were in Christian nations 200 years ago. 1000 years ago.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Morals are based on or derived from a premise: right and wrong. Right and wrong (the concept of the two) come from God. We have this knowledge by way of conscience (which was implanted in us by God).

So let me clarify something....

Are you straight out saying that deep inside of us we all know what is right and wrong ?

I believe so but not with a holy spirit............

Originally posted by debbiejo
I believe so but not with a holy spirit............

Which in my mind would be un-needed. If mankind posesses in itself the ability to be lawful and good in terms of current moral norms then it is irrelevant where that origianlly came from - mankind doesn't need God to be good.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
- mankind doesn't need God to be good.

Quite the contrary in fact...mankind seems to NEED GOD as an excuse to do evil....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Quite the contrary in fact...mankind seems to NEED GOD as an excuse to do evil....

Hmmm. Well that is certainly a way of looking at it.

In my mind the "Holy Spirit" is just our inclusion with all that is and not judgemental,......but can be interactive...............Just part of a communication source, yet I really do not know.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I am not trying to explain away anything. I am merely taking your words at face value. The fact is, from what you have said, is that people have an inbuilt law making component - the conscience. We don't need to believe in God, we can be Atheists of Hindu or Aboriginal dream timers and still have laws and morals and Ethics.

Because apparently God built it into us so we would have it. Unfairly it doesn't matter who made the laws thousands of years before Jesus or the Jews, even though man did in the name of Ma'at or whoever. We don't need to believe in God or the Bible to be good people. We don't need to believe in God to make laws.

In the end, seriously, what I see is that laws and morals are the product of society. The product of the sentient mind. It is the only logical way I see so many varied societies, so many people, making laws, having there own moral code. There is no archaeological proof, no anthropological proof, no philosophical proof God was with any of them. Yet they legislated. And they had moral codes. Man made laws. Man made morals. Even today morals are different from what they were in Christian nations 200 years ago. 1000 years ago.

But you still have not accounted for the "why (why laws and morals exist)" behind the "what (laws and morals)." I have thoroughly explained both. It cannot be refuted: the conscience and its divine origin (because it had to come from Someone intelligent enough to construct it) is the "underlying reason" why laws are instituted and implemented. The intent of the lawmaker is to create or maintain law, order, and peace among society. This "desire" starts "inwardly" but manifests itself "externally" in customs, laws, ordinances, statutes an so on. But God is the true Originator of laws; He ordained government, it is His idea, not humanity's. But laws are devised with other people's (welfare and wellbeing) in mind. Irrespective of the background or social custom of the lawmaker, the process of lawmaking involves conscience (whether it is a pure and good conscience or weak and evil conscience at the helm governing the process).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But you still have not accounted for the "why (why laws and morals exist)" behind the "what (laws and morals)." I have thoroughly explained both. It cannot be refuted: the conscience and its divine origin (because it had to come from Someone intelligent enough to construct it) is the "underlying reason" why laws are instituted and implemented. The intent of the lawmaker is to create or maintain law, order, and peace among society. This "desire" starts "inwardly" but manifests itself "externally" in customs, laws, ordinances, statutes an so on. But God is the true Originator of laws; He ordained government, it is His idea, not humanity's. But laws are devised with other people's (welfare and wellbeing) in mind. Irrespective of the background or social custom of the lawmaker, the process of lawmaking involves conscience (whether it is a pure and good conscience or weak and evil conscience at the helm governing the process).

Personally I don't see the importance of the why. I don't think that there is in any way a God responsible for laws, morals etc. In all reality at best I see religion having been used to legitimise social coherency on the front of laws and morals. I find the idea of sweeping away mans achievements as kind of repugnant. I find it equally so to say that the Egyptians and Romans and Greeks and any number of others weren't responsible for there laws and morality, but rather God was, even when God was neither known, acknowledged or believed in.

Even if I accept that God has somehow planted the idea of law and morality in us - it is still up to humans to implement them, obey them and modernise them. God is irrelevant to the whole process - just the intellectual one "Ah, so thats were law came from" - so what? We are were it is going, we are why it is as it is.

Originally posted by debbiejo
In my mind the "Holy Spirit" is just our inclusion with all that is and not judgemental,......but can be interactive...............Just part of a communication source, yet I really do not know.

Because you don't trust the Bible's description as it were of Who He is. You try to understand Who He is (and other things that relate to God as revealed in the Bible) outside of what the Bible reveals. That would be akin to me trying to explain or describe you to someone else without using the autobiographical information that you gave me for this purpose. Can you see this? God has given us all the information that we need in this life to know all that He wants us to know about Him. The rest of it will be revealed in the age to come.

I trusted the "holy Spirit " before................Or as was said it was...........and it was totally off as the pastors word would interpret it.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But you still have not accounted for the "why (why laws and morals exist)" behind the "what (laws and morals)." I have thoroughly explained both. It cannot be refuted: the conscience and its divine origin (because it had to come from Someone intelligent enough to construct it) is the "underlying reason" why laws are instituted and implemented. The intent of the lawmaker is to create or maintain law, order, and peace among society. This "desire" starts "inwardly" but manifests itself "externally" in customs, laws, ordinances, statutes an so on. But God is the true Originator of laws; He ordained government, it is His idea, not humanity's. But laws are devised with other people's (welfare and wellbeing) in mind. Irrespective of the background or social custom of the lawmaker, the process of lawmaking involves conscience (whether it is a pure and good conscience or weak and evil conscience at the helm governing the process).

If everyone in the nation cherishes a certain thing then it would be immoral to destroy said item why another nation could care less, does that make them less moral?