Originally posted by darthsith19
That's great. So they were toying with him, according to the novelization. But nothing like that ever happened in the movie. Dooku never said anything about Kenobi's moves being too slow and too predictable. No table was ever broken by Skywalker, they never double-teamed him like that. Dooku's own blade never scorched his shoulder. He never did an ankle-sweep on Skywalker. Everything the novel has to say abgout that fight seems to contradict the movie.
Yeah, they never said that in the movie. But the movie has large gaps in it, and they wanted to make Obi-Wan and Anakin look great. I'm sure his blade scorched his shoulder or cape, as he angled his blade downwards and into the general direction of his shoulder. How did they never double team? I'd say at the beginning where they both attack him at once at the beginning. If anything, the novelization simply goes more into detail than the movie.
They double-team him, but nothing like the novel says they do. Kenobi doesn't jump aside so Anakin can catch Dooku by surprise, or any of that. When did the blade scourch his shoulder or his cape in the movie? And no, there wern't any gaps in the fight in the movie. Therefor it contradicts and overrides what the novel says.
Originally posted by darthsith19
They double-team him, but nothing like the novel says they do. Kenobi doesn't jump aside so Anakin can catch Dooku by surprise, or any of that. When did the blade scourch his shoulder or his cape in the movie? And no, there wern't any gaps in the fight in the movie. Therefor it contradicts and overrides what the novel says.
What do you mean by they don't? Just curious. Because it seems like they are trying to outmanuevre him in the movie. And how do you know it didn't scorch his cape? They were moving quite fast. I never said that the fight had gaps in it, I said the movie has gaps in it. The fight in the novelization merely makes the movie's fight more understandable, like how Anakin suddenly becomes much more powerful before Dooku started goading him.
No table is broken. Kenobi doesn't stand to the side while Anakin fights Dooku and try to nab Dooku should Dooku get away from Anakin. Kenobi never moved quickly revealing Skywalker's blade coming towards Dooku. it was always Ani on one side of Dooku, Kenobi on the other in the movie. Dooku's lightsaber never came near his cape, watch the fight, look closly at his shoulders, hell, play it in slo-mo, you'll never see it hit his cape, I guarantee it.
Originally posted by darthsith19
No table is broken. Kenobi doesn't stand to the side while Anakin fights Dooku and try to nab Dooku should Dooku get away from Anakin. Kenobi never moved quickly revealing Skywalker's blade coming towards Dooku. it was always Ani on one side of Dooku, Kenobi on the other in the movie. Dooku's lightsaber never came near his cape, watch the fight, look closly at his shoulders, hell, play it in slo-mo, you'll never see it hit his cape, I guarantee it.
The table is irrelevant. Where does it say that he stays to the side? How would you know that he doesn't go around? Dooku does this twirl thing where he blocks one from each side. Play it in slow motion? It will be blurred! shock
Originally posted by Council#13
The table is irrelevant. Where does it say that he stays to the side? How would you know that he doesn't go around? Dooku does this twirl thing where he blocks one from each side. Play it in slow motion? It will be blurred! shock
Lol...go easy on the drugs buddy... detective
Originally posted by Darth Scythe
I don't see the ladies being any better against him than Obi and Anakin did. I say Dooku does the smart thing and get rid of Depa first and then taking out Luminara... essentially the same strategy he used in AOTC
Dosen't work that way.
Luminara and especially Depa fight differently than Obi and Anakin.
Dooku could be defeated.
After thinking about it, I see that this fight could go either way...
Okay, I'm sorry to revive a topic that was supposedly settled nearly ten months ago. And I know that Dooku fans are sick and tired of hearing about Vaapad (heh, if I was a Dooku fan I'd hate vaapad, too). But I don't think Depa’s qualities have been very well factored into the equation. You can't just say Anakin>Depa and Kenobi>Luminara, and conclude that Dooku wins this one. Oh, I think somebody will convince me that Dooku still wins, but it hasn't happened in this thread. I'm just addressing the fact that the only thing anybody has said about vaapad in this thread is that it is fast.
This is my understanding of Depa’s abilities and vaapad's advantages over fighting styles like Dooku’s (and I think most people are going to agree about this):
You take the defensive techniques of soresu, and a few effective parrying techniques from makashi, you merge them together, and reverse this defensive combo into an aggressive style called Djem-so, which soon proves itself to be one of the greatest counterbalances of makashi in existence.
Now you combine Djem-so with one of the most aggressive forms of lightsaber combat ever known...Juyo. Now add a pattern of fast whip-like strikes and parries specially designed to confuse your opponent, usually succeeding in a very random looking but strategically well placed series of devastating attacks that will penetrate almost any defense, and you get the form of vaapad.
So what? Dooku is the greatest makashi user ever and has a whole freikin ton of force potential, so he still wins, right? Maybe. But I only just got started on vaapad. It is often noted that vaapad is more then a lightsaber form...it is a state of mind. It employs qualities of the dark side and of the light side at the same time. It focuses the anger and the desire to win almost as efficiently as a full use of the dark side. And although vaapad might be plenty effective against normal fighters, it becomes extra special against users of the dark side.
Plus, in Billipa’s case, you pitch vaapad at extremely high speeds. In Shatterpoint, it becomes apperent that even though Windu is better then Billipa, her speed with a lightsaber was at an elite level..."Mace's whole world turned green". Of course, Mace was able to block those speeds, which is equally amazing, so he is still better, but Mace isn't in this duel. Billipa is the vaapad master of this situation, and she is being backed up by one of the greatest Soresu masters in the Jedi Order. That is a handful for anybody, even the greatest Makashi master in the order.
So Depa is understated in this thread. But as much as I hate to admit it, I think Dooku is, too. Makashi might be nothing special against vaapad, but Dooku's experience, his enhancement of makashi, his SHEER POWER...it is incredible. Or at least it is after being trained by Sidious for thirteen years.
So even though I don't think Dooku's lightsaber skills are going to save him in a fight against Billiba and Unduli, I think his power might. I noticed in my last reread of The Revenge of the Sith novelization that the lightning from Sidious actually seemed to be one of the main factors that tipped the balance of the fight between Sidious and Yoda. Something about "the shadow noticing how his lighting taxed the Jedi Master" or something along those lines, except better written. I also recall Windu in the same book, realizing that Sidious' lighting was "beyond vaapad now”.
Dooku's lightning might be nowhere near Sidious', but then, Depa and Luminara aren't Mace and Yoda, either. Still, they are double-teamed, something we never see from Mace and Yoda in star wars.
I wouldn’t be the slightest bit surprised to see the fight go one way or the other, but until somebody adds another factor into this equation, I'm going to say that after a long fight, Luminara and Depa win (assuming absolutely no external factors that Dooku uses to his advantage).
Depa has Vaapad, Dooku has Makashi. One is made specifically to counter dark siders, the other is made for the sole purpose of duelling. So when you put it like that, neither has a huge advanatge over the other. But obviously things are never that black and white. 😛
We need to take into account that Dooku has been practising and mastering his form for decades longer than the other two competitors. He has also been personally trained by both Yoda and Sidious, the two strongest force users at the time.
And even if his lightsaber skills fail him, his true power [to me] lies in his strength in the force. He can take out the likes of Asajj and Obi-Wan - two very powerful people in their own right - with the force with laughable ease.
"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall." - Dooku described by the RotS novel.
"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor." - Dooku in Dark Rendezvous
So in regards to the fight at hand, it certainly wont be easy for either party involved. While the duo may have an advanatge with the sword, Dooku is a good notch or two above them when it comes to the force.
Dooku wins. 😄
Dooku wins this, the ladies don't have great teamwork, And so what if Depa has Vaapad, she is no Mace Windu, Sora had Vaapad as well, that didn't help him at all and he was fighting with Tholme, who is no slouch either, this duo is equal at worst with the duo of Depa and Luminara and Dooku had no problems dealing with them. He even divided Anakin and Obi-Wan in ROTS, probably the most cohesive Jedi duo ever and who are much better then the women duo, i cant see how he cant do the same to Luminara nad Depa. Not to mention his Force mastery is way, way above Luminaras and Depas.
Honestly, i cant see how, the ladies duo has a chance of wining, they would put up a fight, but thats all.
Yes, Depa has Vaapad, which is good against Dark Siders, but just because it's good against dark siders doesn't mean that anybody who uses Vaapad > any darksider. DE Sidious would sitll beat Mace Windu, and a fair number of darksiders would still beat Depa and Sora. Dooku will win this one (not easily, though).