Frist calls for efforts to bring Taliban into Afghan government

And jaden- as regards Northern Ireland, so what? No-one claimed it would go, in one step, to fairy tale perfection. But here is the important thing- it is much better than it was. The bombings have stopped, the military presence scaled back. Peace IS winning, and violence declining in favour of the political process, which is how it should be. Now a generation can grow up with none of this, and once that has happened, a return is unthinkable. The sectarianism will wither and die.

how can you say Northern Ireland and Iraq are good examples and keep a straight face...more people have died in Iraq since the creation of the democracy that died during the toppling of the dictatorship

and the peace process has in Northern Ireland has been going on for 8 years (since the Omagh bombing) and has achieved a greater polarization of protestants and catholics...which is evident in the fact the Ian Paisley won the last elections

not to mention that there IS NO NORTHERN IRELAND GOVERNMENT...it was disbanded after the spy scandel...and doesn't look like getting on track any time in the near future

hardly shining examples of changes from violence to peace are they

Well, for Northern Ireland, yes it is, because there was once continuous violence and now it is only sporadic. Like I said, yes, there are all sorts of troubles, but it is better than it was, and it will improve.

The task in Iraq is much harder because it is representative of a much wider struggle to do with the US. But the nay-sayers can give no better alternative and ignore the important thing- that the longer you can keep it goether, the more likely it becomes that things will improve.

And they will. It will take a damn long time, but they will. And politics is the way to do it, not violence. And Northern Ireland has not been 'given' to anyone other than the democratic will of those within it.

What really gets me is that it is these "Never give them an inch" kind of opinions that kept the Northern Ireland conflict going on for decades longer than it needed to. Ultimately, it was when the leaders on all sides agreed that giving an inch was better than another decade of deaths that things have started to improve.

I keep saying this. It is not easy, and it will start in chaos, and there will be all sorts of wrongs and idiocies along the way. But it is still the best way.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Because it would be the smart thing to do, which is obviously why you are unable to understand it.

This IS the way these things are won. it's been used in Northern Ireland, a similar thing is being done in Iraq, and there is no reason not to do it here.

As a controlling Government, the Taliban ARE ousted. As a terrorist force, it is near impossible to defeat them militarily.

This is the way to defeat them politically. This is NOT 'return the Taliban to power'. It is "lessen the violence for everyone, and give them less room to claim unfair oppression, by not excluding them from the Democratic process, for those who give up the ways of violence." That's very different, and it is very commendable.

The way you attempt to dress-up your naivety and incomprehension as knowingness and insight is laughable. Do you really think the Taliban are going to play donkey and go for the carrot? Don't be so foolish! The circumstances would simply lead to a situation akin to that of the Hezbollah/Hamas representation within the Palestinian government.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, for Northern Ireland, yes it is, because there was once continuous violence and now it is only sporadic. Like I said, yes, there are all sorts of troubles, but it is better than it was, and it will improve.

The task in Iraq is much harder because it is representative of a much wider struggle to do with the US. But the nay-sayers can give no better alternative and ignore the important thing- that the longer you can keep it goether, the more likely it becomes that things will improve.

And they will. It will take a damn long time, but they will. And politics is the way to do it, not violence. And Northern Ireland has not been 'given' to anyone other than the democratic will of those within it.

What really gets me is that it is these "Never give them an inch" kind of opinions that kept the Northern Ireland conflict going on for decades longer than it needed to. Ultimately, it was when the leaders on all sides agreed that giving an inch was better than another decade of deaths that things have started to improve.

I keep saying this. It is not easy, and it will start in chaos, and there will be all sorts of wrongs and idiocies along the way. But it is still the best way.

the NI situation has only improved because little happens on the UK mainland now...sectarian murders are still rife in northern ireland and are dismissed as drug related by the politicians to try and avoid uproar...and i still hardly think that a polarization to extremes of opinion is making progress...if anything it will result in more violence and resentment

the difference with Iraq and Afgahnistan is that we've taken away total control from the regimes and yet are naive to think that if we give them a tiny bit of that power back then that will appease them and stop their violence...it wont...they wont be happy until total control is theirs again

you also completely dismiss the ideology of the taliban...you expect that a group who are intent on implementing Sharia law will willingly be part of a democratic process...the 2 are utterly incompatible with one another