2007 Rapture?

*["Umm...WRONG! (1) The Bible says that the Rapture shall happen when no one suspects it (2) If she knows the exact date the Rapture will happen then she would suspect the Rapture and thus the Rapture won't happen.

Jesus said no one will know when it happens. As the Bible says, "the secret things belong to God alone."]

***You are CORRECT. The Bible tells us that there would be many FALSE PROPHETS that would arise in the LAST days: "For there shall arise FALSE Christs, and FALSE prophets, and shall show great SIGNS and WONDERS; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall DECEIVE the very ELECT" [Matthew 24:24].

Marchello

These "last days" will be a LONG time coming, Marchello... don't hold your breath.

*["christ is robotnic in disguise."]

***Jesus Christ is LORD of ALL.

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
[B]*["christ is robotnic in disguise."]

***Jesus Christ is LORD of ALL.

Marchello [/B]

How is that possible? He has been dead for 2000 years.

*["The word Rapture isn't in the Bible. It Should of been included in the Clause Statement."]

***PAROUSIA [Gr.]=Personal Presence: "But I would NOT have you be IGNORANT, brethern, concerning THEM which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow NOT, even as OTHERS which HAVE NO HOPE. For if we BELIEVE that Jesus DIED and ROSE AGAIN, even so THEM also which SLEEP in Jesus WILL God bring WITH HIM. For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that WE which are ALIVE and REMAIN unto the COMING of the Lord shall NOT prevent THEM which are ASLEEP. For the LORD HIMSELF [PAROUSIA...His PERSONAL PRESENCE] shall DECEND from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the ARCHANGEL and with the TRUMP of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall rise FIRST: Then we which are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught UP with THEM in the clouds, to MEET the LORD in the AIR: and so SHALL we EVER be WITH the LORD. Wherefore COMFORT one another with these words" [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18].

So then...the word RAPTURE is mentioned...it is His RAPTUROUS PERSONAL PRESENCE [PAROUSIA] that the BELIEVER will experience FOREVER...at His Glorious COMING!

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
[B]*["The word Rapture isn't in the Bible. It Should of been included in the Clause Statement."]

***PAROUSIA [Gr.]=Personal Presence: "But I would NOT have you be IGNORANT, brethern, concerning THEM which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow NOT, even as OTHERS which HAVE NO HOPE. For if we BELIEVE that Jesus DIED and ROSE AGAIN, even so THEM also which SLEEP in Jesus WILL God bring WITH HIM. For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that WE which are ALIVE and REMAIN unto the COMING of the Lord shall NOT prevent THEM which are ASLEEP. For the LORD HIMSELF [PAROUSIA...His PERSONAL PRESENCE] shall DECEND from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the ARCHANGEL and with the TRUMP of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall rise FIRST: Then we which are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught UP with THEM in the clouds, to MEET the LORD in the AIR: and so SHALL we EVER be WITH the LORD. Wherefore COMFORT one another with these words" [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18].

So then...the word RAPTURE is mentioned...it is His RAPTUROUS PERSONAL PRESENCE [PAROUSIA] that the BELIEVER will experience FOREVER...at His Glorious COMING!

Marchello [/B]

The word Rapture is not in that verse.

The Bible tells us that there would be many FALSE PROPHETS that would arise in the LAST days: "For there shall arise FALSE Christs, and FALSE prophets, and shall show great SIGNS and WONDERS; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall DECEIVE the very ELECT"

Jesus Christ is LORD of ALL.

*["These "last days" will be a LONG time coming, Marchello... don't hold your breath."]

***The God I believe in [i.e., the God of Israel] does NOT perceive the existence of TIME in the same way as PUNY men like you do. Time does NOT exist because He is ETERNAL and does NOT use it as a REFERENCE. Here's what the apostle Peter has to say about the "last days" being a loooooooog time coming [according to you]: "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the LAST DAYS scoffers, walking after their own LUSTS. And saying, WHERE is the PROMISE of His COMING? for since the fathers fell ASLEEP, ALL things CONTINUE as they WERE from the BEGINNING of the CREATION. For this they WILLINGLY are IGNORANT of, that BY the Word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the WORLD that then WAS, being OVERFLOWED with water, PERISHED. But the heavens and the earth, which are NOW, BY the SAME Word are kept in STORE, RESERVED unto FIRE against the DAY of JUDGMENT and PERDITION of UNGODLY men. But beloved, be NOT ignorant of this ONE THING, that ONE DAY is with the Lord as a THOUSAND YEARS, and a THOUSAND YEARS as ONE DAY. The Lord is NOT slack concerning His PROMISE, as some men count SLACKNESS; but is LONGSUFFERING to us-ward, NOT willing that ANY should PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE. But the DAY of the LORD will COME as a THIEF in the NIGHT; in which the heavens shall PASS AWAY with a great NOISE, and the earth also and the WORKS that are therein shall be BURNED up" [2 Peter 3:3-10].

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
[B]*["These "last days" will be a LONG time coming, Marchello... don't hold your breath."]

***The God I believe in [i.e., the God of Israel] does NOT perceive the existence of TIME in the same way as PUNY men like you do. Time does NOT exist because He is ETERNAL and does NOT use it as a REFERENCE. Here's what the apostle Peter has to say about the "last days" being a loooooooog time coming [according to you]: "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the LAST DAYS scoffers, walking after their own LUSTS. And saying, WHERE is the PROMISE of His COMING? for since the fathers fell ASLEEP, ALL things CONTINUE as they WERE from the BEGINNING of the CREATION. For this they WILLINGLY are IGNORANT of, that BY the Word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the WORLD that then WAS, being OVERFLOWED with water, PERISHED. But the heavens and the earth, which are NOW, BY the SAME Word are kept in STORE, RESERVED unto FIRE against the DAY of JUDGMENT and PERDITION of UNGODLY men. But beloved, be NOT ignorant of this ONE THING, that ONE DAY is with the Lord as a THOUSAND YEARS, and a THOUSAND YEARS as ONE DAY. The Lord is NOT slack concerning His PROMISE, as some men count SLACKNESS; but is LONGSUFFERING to us-ward, NOT willing that ANY should PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE. But the DAY of the LORD will COME as a THIEF in the NIGHT; in which the heavens shall PASS AWAY with a great NOISE, and the earth also and the WORKS that are therein shall be BURNED up" [2 Peter 3:3-10].

Marchello [/B]

Why do you always talk like you were not also a "PUNY men"? Your arrogance is revealing.

Originally posted by Marchello
[B]*["The word Rapture isn't in the Bible. It Should of been included in the Clause Statement."]

***PAROUSIA [Gr.]=Personal Presence: "But I would NOT have you be IGNORANT, brethern, concerning THEM which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow NOT, even as OTHERS which HAVE NO HOPE. For if we BELIEVE that Jesus DIED and ROSE AGAIN, even so THEM also which SLEEP in Jesus WILL God bring WITH HIM. For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that WE which are ALIVE and REMAIN unto the COMING of the Lord shall NOT prevent THEM which are ASLEEP. For the LORD HIMSELF [PAROUSIA...His PERSONAL PRESENCE] shall DECEND from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the ARCHANGEL and with the TRUMP of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall rise FIRST: Then we which are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught UP with THEM in the clouds, to MEET the LORD in the AIR: and so SHALL we EVER be WITH the LORD. Wherefore COMFORT one another with these words" [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18].

So then...the word RAPTURE is mentioned...it is His RAPTUROUS PERSONAL PRESENCE [PAROUSIA] that the BELIEVER will experience FOREVER...at His Glorious COMING!

Marchello [/B]

But then again, this was written by Paul the Heretic.

*["The word used can mean many things such as a catching away, or catching up, or catching out from. Also, if Jesus and the Father are one, and if the Son does not even know what the date is, then Jesus is not God. If Jesus is not God then those that worship him are committing blasphemy against the Father..."]

***In Matthew 24:35-36 Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away...But of that day and hour no one
knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days
of Noah."

If Jesus is God in flesh, then shouldn't He know what the day and hour of his return would be? After all, God knows all things. Therefore, if Jesus doesn't know all things, then He cannot be God.

This OBJECTION is most often raised by the Jehovah's Witnesses but is also echoed by the Christadelphians. It is a good question.

Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was divine and human at the same time. This teaching is known as the hypostatic union; that is, the coming-together of two natures in one person. In Hebrews 2:9 that Jesus was "...made for a little while lower than the angels..." Also in Philippians 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men..." Colossians 2:9 says, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus was both God and man at the same time.

As a man, Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man. That is why we have verses like Luke 2:52 that says "Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Therefore, at this point in his ministry he could say He did not know the day nor hour of His return. It is not a denial of His being God, but a confirmation of Him
being man.

Also, the logic that Jesus could not be God because He did not know all things works both ways. If we could find a scripture where Jesus does know all things, then that would prove that He was God, wouldn't it?

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus *said to him, "Tend My sheep" (John 21:17 - NASB).

Jesus did not correct Peter and say, "Hold on Peter, I do not know all things." He let Peter continue on with his statement that Jesus knew all things. Therefore, it must be true.

But, if we have a verse that says that Jesus did not know all things and another that says he did know all things, then isn't that a contradiction? No. It is not.

Before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection He said the Father alone knew the day and hour of His return. It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience is attributed to Jesus. As I said before, Jesus was cooperating with the limitations of being a man and completed His ministry on this earth. He was then glorified in His resurrection. Yet, He was still a man (cf. Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 2:5). After Jesus' resurrection, He was able to appear and disappear at will. This is not the normal ability of a man. But, it is, apparently, the normal ability of a resurrected and glorified man. Jesus was different AFTER the resurrection. There had been a CHANGE. He was STILL a man and He KNEW all things.

************************************************

*["...But then again, this was written by Paul the Heretic."]

***There is NO evidence that Paul was a heretic...ONLY allegations by RANK unbelievers like you. Allegations can be leveled by ANYONE...and you DON'T have to have PROOF to level them.

Marchello

[QUOTE=9512308]Originally posted by Marchello
[B]*["The word used can mean many things such as a catching away, or catching up, or catching out from. Also, if Jesus and the Father are one, and if the Son does not even know what the date is, then Jesus is not God. If Jesus is not God then those that worship him are committing blasphemy against the Father..."]

***In Matthew 24:35-36 Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away...But of that day and hour no one
knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days
of Noah."

If Jesus is God in flesh, then shouldn't He know what the day and hour of his return would be? After all, God knows all things. Therefore, if Jesus doesn't know all things, then He cannot be God.

This OBJECTION is most often raised by the Jehovah's Witnesses but is also echoed by the Christadelphians. It is a good question.

Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was divine and human at the same time. This teaching is known as the hypostatic union; that is, the coming-together of two natures in one person. In Hebrews 2:9 that Jesus was "...made for a little while lower than the angels..." Also in Philippians 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men..." Colossians 2:9 says, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus was both God and man at the same time.

As a man, Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man. That is why we have verses like Luke 2:52 that says "Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Therefore, at this point in his ministry he could say He did not know the day nor hour of His return. It is not a denial of His being God, but a confirmation of Him
being man.

Also, the logic that Jesus could not be God because He did not know all things works both ways. If we could find a scripture where Jesus does know all things, then that would prove that He was God, wouldn't it?

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus *said to him, "Tend My sheep" (John 21:17 - NASB).

Jesus did not correct Peter and say, "Hold on Peter, I do not know all things." He let Peter continue on with his statement that Jesus knew all things. Therefore, it must be true.

But, if we have a verse that says that Jesus did not know all things and another that says he did know all things, then isn't that a contradiction? No. It is not.

Before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection He said the Father alone knew the day and hour of His return. It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience is attributed to Jesus. As I said before, Jesus was cooperating with the limitations of being a man and completed His ministry on this earth. He was then glorified in His resurrection. Yet, He was still a man (cf. Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 2:5). After Jesus' resurrection, He was able to appear and disappear at will. This is not the normal ability of a man. But, it is, apparently, the normal ability of a resurrected and glorified man. Jesus was different AFTER the resurrection. There had been a CHANGE. He was STILL a man and He KNEW all things.

************************************************

*["...But then again, this was written by Paul the Heretic."]

***There is NO evidence that Paul was a heretic...ONLY allegations by RANK unbelievers like you. Allegations can be leveled by ANYONE...and you DON'T have to have PROOF to level them.

Marchello [/B]

***By Carm.

Marchello

Oh hey, it's Marchello! I assumed you'd been raptured. I haven't seen you on in a while.

Or maybe I just avoid your threads?

Originally posted by Marchello

*["...But then again, this was written by Paul the Heretic."]

***There is NO evidence that Paul was a heretic...ONLY allegations by RANK unbelievers like you. Allegations can be leveled by ANYONE...and you DON'T have to have PROOF to level them.

Marchello

If all the fullness of the Father/Diety dwelled in Jesus, then ALL THE FULLNESS was in him and he should know the time of the Rapture. But of course you are quoting heretic Paul again who was starting a blending of a new religion with Mithraism. All the things that Paul states are also quoted about Mithra. You are mixing the message of Jesus in Matt. with Pauls teachings.

Try reading your Bible without Paul and see the contrasts of the meanings. Paul contradicts Jesus and the OT. Even the Jews consider him a heretic.

Jesus also stated that "Heaven and earth will not pass away until all things being fulfulled, not one jot or tiddle from the law"...Do you keep the law?

Page 1:

*["...But of course you are quoting heretic Paul again who was starting a blending of a new religion with Mithraism. All the things that Paul states are also quoted about Mithra..."].

***First of al, Christianity does not need any outside influence to derive any of its doctrines. All the doctrines of Christianity exists in the OT where we can see the prophetic teachings of Jesus. Also, the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses (or directed by eyewitnesses as were Mark and Luke) who accurately represented the life of Christ. So, what they did was write what Jesus taught as well as record the events of His life, death, and resurrection. In other words, they recorded history, actual events and had no need of fabrication or borrowing.

Any reading of the OT results in observing the intrusion of God into Jewish history as is recorded in miracles and prophetic utterances. Add to that the incredible archaeological evidence verifying OT cities and events and you have a document based on historical fact instead of mythical fabrication. Furthermore, it is from these OT writings that the NT themes were developed.

As you can see, there is no need for any of the Christian writers...especially that ole "heretic" Paul...to borrow from anything other than the OT source in order to establish any Christian doctrine concerning Jesus. If the argument that pagan mythologies predated Christian teachings and, therefore, Christianity borrowed from them is true...then it must also be true that the pagan religions borrowed from the Jewish religion...because it is older than they are! Given that all of the Christian themes are found in the OT and the OT was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these pagan religions actually borrowed from the Jewish ideas found in the OT. Think about it...the idea of a blood sacrifice and a covering for sin is found in the first three chapters of Genesis when God covered Adam and Eve with animal skins and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.

Furthermore, those who wrote about Jesus in the NT were Jews (or under the instruction of Jews) who were devoted to the legitimacy and inspiration of the OT scriptures and possessed a strong distain for pagan religions. It would have been blasphemous for them to incorporate pagan sources into what they saw as fulfillment of the OT scriptures concerning the Messiah. Why then would they lie and make up stories and suffer great persecution, hardships, ridicule, arrest, beatings, and death all for known lies and fabrications from paganism? It doesn't make sense.

(Continue)

Page 2:

[***First of al, Christianity does not need any outside influence to derive any of its doctrines. All the doctrines of Christianity exists in the OT where we can see the prophetic teachings of Jesus. Also, the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses (or directed by eyewitnesses as were Mark and Luke) who accurately represented the life of Christ. So, what they did was write what Jesus taught as well as record the events of His life, death, and resurrection. In other words, they recorded history, actual events and had no need of fabrication or borrowing.

Any reading of the OT results in observing the intrusion of God into Jewish history as is recorded in miracles and prophetic utterances. Add to that the incredible archaeological evidence verifying OT cities and events and you have a document based on historical fact instead of mythical fabrication. Furthermore, it is from these OT writings that the NT themes were developed.

As you can see, there is no need for any of the Christian writers...especially that ole "heretic" Paul...to borrow from anything other than the OT source in order to establish any Christian doctrine concerning Jesus. If the argument that pagan mythologies predated Christian teachings and, therefore, Christianity borrowed from them is true...then it must also be true that the pagan religions borrowed from the Jewish religion...because it is older than they are! Given that all of the Christian themes are found in the OT and the OT was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these pagan religions actually borrowed from the Jewish ideas found in the OT. Think about it...the idea of a blood sacrifice and a covering for sin is found in the first three chapters of Genesis when God covered Adam and Eve with animal skins and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.

Furthermore, those who wrote about Jesus in the NT were Jews (or under the instruction of Jews) who were devoted to the legitimacy and inspiration of the OT scriptures and possessed a strong distain for pagan religions. It would have been blasphemous for them to incorporate pagan sources into what they saw as fulfillment of the OT scriptures concerning the Messiah. Why then would they lie and make up stories and suffer great persecution, hardships, ridicule, arrest, beatings, and death all for known lies and fabrications from paganism? It doesn't make sense.]

At best, Mithrasism only had some common themes with Christianity (and Judaism) which were recorded in both the OT and NT. What is far more probable is that as Mithraism developed, it started to adopt Christian concepts.

Allegations of an early Christian dependence on Mithraism have been rejected on many grounds. Mithraism had NO concept of the death and resurrection of its god...NO place for any concept of rebirth (atleast during its early stages)...for during the early stages of the cult, the notion of rebirth would have been foreign to its basic outlook...Moreover, Mithraism was basically a military cult. Therefore, one must be skeptical about suggestions that it appealed to nonmilitary people like the early Christians.

What is more probable is that with the explosive nature of the Christian church in the 1st and 2nd century, other cult groups started to adapt themselves to take advantage of some of the teachings found in Christianity. While there are several sources that suggest that Mithraism included a notion of rebirth...they are all post-Christian. The earliest dates from the end of the 2nd century A.D.

Therefore, even though there are similarities between Mithraism and Christianity...it is up to the critics, like you, to prove that one borrowed from the other. But considering that the writings of the NT were written by Jews who shunned pagan philosophies and that the OT has all of the themes found in Christianity...it is far more probable that if any borrowing was done, it was done by the pagan religions that wanted to emulate the success of Christianity. [Carm].

Marchello

17/Sep/07 and still no Rapture.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
17/Sep/07 and still no Rapture.

Ohhhhh what to do, what to doooooo.