ANIME Fighters VS AMERICAN Superheros

Originally posted by carver9
LOL, I'm not going to respond to this because all you did was post sarcastic comments. There are numerous of people that has injured or did harm towards Wonder Woman that wouldnt even register on Gokus radar as a threat. Cheetah is another one for example. Deathstroke also had a good showing against her along with Batman going H2H with her. Wonder Woman is powerful but she isnt on any of the Androids or Gokus level and on panel proof proves this but you seem to have a bad habit of throwing everything out of the window as PIS because you dont like it.

Yes, my points included sarcasm, but they help get the point across, right my friend? Also, I must say "Bravo". You did a fine job recognizing that there was sarcasm in my posts.

I have a bad habit of throwing everything out of the window as PIS? I think you are attributing your own problems to meself my friend. Why else would you ignore their high end feats and only concentrate on their low end ones? Do you see any of us focusing only on Goku's, or indeed any other DBZ character's low end feats?

They primarily put up those low end feats for story-line purposes, so it really is PIS. Almost like Toriyama had Goku lose to 19, for story-line purposes; the only difference being that Goku was sick, so his loss was explained.

You'd have to be an extremely creative writer to come up with a story that shows an American superhero's true level of power whenever you write a story. This gets considerably harder when said character has been around for decades, and the story needs to be resolved in that issue.

Originally posted by carver9
He made VERY good points and thats what got him in trouble. When people is put on the edge and have no way of defending themselves, thats when they start reporting people.

No, he was a DBZ fanboi and primarily a Superman hater.
The only differences between you two were the "GAHHH, I cannot take what I perceive as Superman wanking. I must de-wank Superman and wank Goku" aspect, and that he was a sock, which is what got him banned.
I at least respect you for not being a sock.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
How can you determine who wins when you're only going by low showings? That's not really a good way to debate.

Also, I can do the same thing for Goku (posting only times when he got hit and claim he's slow) but I won't because it's a flawed argument.

When did Goku get hit by a person not possessing super speed? Thats the question.

High showings ARE Superman using his speed in combat, regular showings, the norm, is Superman fighting like a brick and even when he use his speed, its not on the level of Goku.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yes, my points included sarcasm, but they help get the point across, right my friend? Also, I must say "Bravo". You did a fine job recognizing that there was sarcasm in my posts.

I have a bad habit of throwing everything out of the window as PIS? I think you are attributing your own problems to meself my friend. Why else would you ignore their high end feats and only concentrate on their low end ones? Do you see any of us focusing only on Goku's, or indeed any other DBZ character's low end feats?

They primarily put up those low end feats for story-line purposes, so it really is PIS. Almost like Toriyama had Goku lose to 19, for story-line purposes; the only difference being that Goku was sick, so his loss was explained.

You'd have to be an extremely creative writer to come up with a story that shows an American superhero's true level of power whenever you write a story. This gets considerably harder when said character has been around for decades, and the story needs to be resolved in that issue.

No, he was a DBZ fanboi and primarily a Superman hater.
The only differences between you two were the "GAHHH, I cannot take what I perceive as Superman wanking. I must de-wank Superman and wank Goku" aspect, and that he was a sock, which is what got him banned.
I at least respect you for not being a sock.

First thing I want to comment on is everything that I'm saying about either Goku or Superman I'm basing it directly from the comic itself. There is no wanking, the only thing I'm asking you all to do is provide proof to back your claims.

There are plenty of people that can beat Goku and in all seriousness, I'm trying to figure out if Goku could take Surfer because Surfer is a versatile MF.

I think the guy posted good comments, he showed some hate but overrall, he knew what he was talking about just like (I'm going to hate saying this) Mike know what he is talking about. I primarily come on here to debate against Mike because he know just as much about comics (probably more) than I do, so I hand pick him out. The thing about Mike is that he thinks everyone in Marvel and DC have light speed flight and reaction when all in all, they dont.

I dont mind you bringing up Goku low end showings but the thing is, even his low end showings have him as a beast in the speed dept. He has never been hit by a brick like character and he has ALWAYS shown the ability to slap energy blast out of the air (unless they are too powerful) and he has shown the ability to even out run energy blast but if you have some low showings when it comes to his speed, please let me know.

I wish you stop bringing up him losing to 19 because 19 was getting STOMPED until that heart virus got to Goku. Goku defeated himself.

Originally posted by carver9
When did Goku get hit by a person not possessing super speed? Thats the question.

High showings ARE Superman using his speed in combat, regular showings, the norm, is Superman fighting like a brick and even when he use his speed, its not on the level of Goku.

.

I'm not even sure you can compare Dragonball to Marvel comics like that considering that Dragonball had only one writer (making it more consistent), and also Dragonball characters increased their powers immensely through each volume. I.e. You can't use Freeza arc feats as a cap for power to higher arcs.

On the 'city destroying blasts WW has tanked,' how about the one at the end of the recent "Rise of the Olympians" storyline? Very large nuclear missile, successfully detonate, big blast in space and she's just fine.

Originally posted by carver9
The cheetah that fought Superman was amped and I'm referring to the cheetah and Wonder Woman fights before her upgrades from Zoom.

No, unamped. Perfectly normal Cheetah (BoyCheetah btw, but same power, and no stronger) took out Superman.

Also, Cheetah was faster than WW before the Zoom fight, the Zoom thing just increased her speed even more, so she's probably the fastest non-speedforce being on the planet.

Perfectly normal Cheetah has taken out Firestorm too.

At max, Cheetah is at LEAST a 10 to 15 tonner and I could be over exaggerating a bit.

Nope, you're flat out wrong.

Cheetah has always roughly kept pace with Diana's strength. In Diana's weakest runs she's similarly not massively strong, but the vast majority of the time she's a class 100+ just like WW.

I'm not even sure where you'd get the impression that 10-15 is her max.

Originally posted by Kento
I can find like half a dozen scans of superman speedblitzing an opponent. And even more with bullrush speedblitzing. And even one of those scans has on-panel proof of how fast he's fighting. Add those to a couple dozen scans of him justing moving extremely fast doing stuff, meaning he has the perception and reaction time so he doesn't destroy everything. He has a lot of proof of super speed fighting, and reactions. Just because he doesn't use his fighting skill, or his speed doesn't suddenly mean he doesn't have it. He's got enough feats to prove he can.

.

I never said he cant but again, its more of a high showing when he use it in combat than a norm since 90% of the time he is fighting like a brick.

The only time that was quoted for Superman speed was during his flash race and that was clocked at 2000 mps which his bio also said was his top speed. If there is another time where a speed was quoted for him during movements on earth, please let me know.

Of course he has to slow down crossing cities, do you honestly know what a sonic boom would do to a human if Superman is nearby.

Superman is fast as hell but again, its not as fast as DBZ characters. It has recently been confirmed that Wonder Woman is even faster than him combat wise and Wonder Woman couldnt even react to flash when he was on a rage whipping that a** at the speed of light. She couldnt react when Zoom was knocking her across the planet at the speed of light.

Originally posted by Q99
On the 'city destroying blasts WW has tanked,' how about the one at the end of the recent "Rise of the Olympians" storyline? Very large nuclear missile, successfully detonate, big blast in space and she's just fine.

No, unamped. Perfectly normal Cheetah (BoyCheetah btw, but same power, and no stronger) took out Superman.

Also, Cheetah was faster than WW before the Zoom fight, the Zoom thing just increased her speed even more, so she's probably the fastest non-speedforce being on the planet.

Perfectly normal Cheetah has taken out Firestorm too.

Nope, you're flat out wrong.

Cheetah has always roughly kept pace with Diana's strength. In Diana's weakest runs she's similarly not massively strong, but the vast majority of the time she's a class 100+ just like WW.

I'm not even sure where you'd get the impression that 10-15 is her max.

I know what Superman fight you are talking about because that Cheetah was blitzing the hell out of Superman (proves again Superman speed isnt on DBZ level). I honestly think that Cheetah was amped or pulling power from another source to do that.

I agree with this, Cheetah did take out FireStorm.

Cheetah has never kept pace strength wise with Diana. She never did a tugg of war or anything to prove that she is in Dianas caliber. She fought her off skill, speed, and claws. Wolverine has done the same but that doesnt make him a 100 tonner. A lot of people have done this. Cheetah is a bad a** but you are giving her too much props.

Originally posted by carver9
I know what Superman fight you are talking about because that Cheetah was blitzing the hell out of Superman (proves again Superman speed isnt on DBZ level). I honestly think that Cheetah was amped or pulling power from another source to do that.

Oh, because you *think* so. Not, mind you, because of anything in comic.

I'll tell you that he talked constantly about the great power that let him do it: Being Cheetah. He had just gotten the power and he was *loving* it.

Also Superman compared the punches to Captain Marvel's and Diana's in his thought bubbles.

Also Barbara Minerva got the power of a god of vengeance shortly thereafter. What did she do with it? Try and get the Cheetah power *back* (and the two were a close match).

Cheetah has never kept pace strength wise with Diana. She never did a tugg of war or anything to prove that she is in Dianas caliber.

She did, first appearance, matched her exactly.

And also got into lasso tug-o-wars with both Donna and Diana in the OYL "Who is Wonder Woman story". Not long ones, but enough to show Barbara has no fear of going strength to strength with them.

Has wrestled with Diana a few times too, needless to say.

She fought her off skill, speed, and claws. Wolverine has done the same but that doesnt make him a 100 tonner. A lot of people have done this. Cheetah is a bad a** but you are giving her too much props.

Also when Black Lightning hit her at full power, she wasn't KOed. In Secret Six, the entire team said they were *screwed* if they even tried to fight her. They got away by sicking a high powered electrical villain on her, again no particular damage to her.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh, because you *think* so. Not, mind you, because of anything in comic.

I'll tell you that he talked constantly about the great power that let him do it: Being Cheetah. He had just gotten the power and he was *loving* it.

Also Superman compared the punches to Captain Marvel's and Diana's in his thought bubbles.

Also Barbara Minerva got the power of a god of vengeance shortly thereafter. What did she do with it? Try and get the Cheetah power *back* (and the two were a close match).

She did, first appearance, matched her exactly.

And also got into lasso tug-o-wars with both Donna and Diana in the OYL "Who is Wonder Woman story". Not long ones, but enough to show Barbara has no fear of going strength to strength with them.

Has wrestled with Diana a few times too, needless to say.

Also when Black Lightning hit her at full power, she wasn't KOed. In Secret Six, the entire team said they were *screwed* if they even tried to fight her. They got away by sicking a high powered electrical villain on her, again no particular damage to her.

I agree with this, forgot about half of it and I'm not going to deny, I have no way to prove that Cheetah was amped during the time he fought Superman and was blitzing him, so I am going to leave that be.

I have a question though, do you think THAT Cheetah that was fighting Superman, do you think it was as fast as the Goku that fought Picollo during the last tournament on the regular DragonBall series? If your answer is yes, please explain why (and please dont use that excuse "because he was blitzing Superman" because if thats the case why did Superman ADMIT that someone was even faster than him speed wise but Cassandra was able to keep up in the same issue with a being that Superman wasnt able to keep up with 😕 )

This fight scene alone proves that Tien and Goku speed combat speed wise>>>anyone that Superman fought. Hell, this fight scene alone proves that Tien is>>>speed wise the Cheetah that was blitzing Superman and this is regular DragonBall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fGdq5W499c&NR=1

Originally posted by carver9
This fight scene alone proves that Tien and Goku speed combat speed wise>>>anyone that Superman fought. Hell, this fight scene alone proves that Tien is>>>speed wise the Cheetah that was blitzing Superman and this is regular DragonBall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fGdq5W499c&NR=1

I bet Endless Mike would say anime is non-canon... unless if there's a similar scene in manga.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
I bet Endless Mike would say anime is non-canon... unless if there's a similar scene in manga.

I'm pretty sure he would but everything that I posted in that scan besides the tornado feat happened in the manga.

This fight scene is the one that made me truly realize that Goku is on another level than Supes combat speed wise. Blast cant hit him, I dont care how fast you all think the blast was going, it was multiple of blast coming from all sort of angles at high speeds and it couldnt even touch Goku, it was going through his body. Then we have two being with super human speed far superior to the speed goku had during his teenage years and goku during his teenage years was blocking gun fire from a mulitiple of machine gun shooters which would make his reflexes at least 20 times that of the speed of sound. These two beings that is at least a 100 times more faster than teenage Goku couldnt even land a lick on goku with super speed punches, punches that were moving in a blurr.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJhkMhnUR0

I truly dont understand where you all get the assumption that Superman is= or >than goku speed wise when he isnt even close. You all nitpick to find things to put him above Goku when he is not. Space flight, HHHMMM, it was 2 minutes left on the planet namek before it exploded, Frieza told Goku that by the time planet namek exploded (during these two minutes now), he would be long gone. He wouldnt even be close to the blast.

We have instances of Goku outrunning blast and if you were to include the anime, you have instances of him moving so fast that he turned to light (kind of like flash when flash goes the speed of light). There is no showings of him being hit by slow opponents and his speed is consistent, its there in ALL of his fights and it is continuous.

Yeah, you can post a scan of Superman or Wonder Woman or even Batman tagging flash but its called timed attacks, and even Hulk has that under his belt (you see this young lady thats blitzing hulk, she has a top record of going 93000 mps, so I guess Hulk have half light speed reflexes. WTF.).

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7116/lsh1d3in.jpg

Originally posted by carver9

I have a question though, do you think THAT Cheetah that was fighting Superman, do you think it was as fast as the Goku that fought Picollo during the last tournament on the regular DragonBall series? If your answer is yes, please explain why (and please dont use that excuse "because he was blitzing Superman" because if thats the case why did Superman ADMIT that someone was even faster than him speed wise but Cassandra was able to keep up in the same issue with a being that Superman wasnt able to keep up with 😕 )

It was more of a 'strangle with a tail and slam into stuff' than blitz-blitz, if you ask me.

scan

Cheetah in general tends towards slightly (or post-Zoom, noticeably) faster than Diana, who can catch speedsters on the edge of the speed force... so it wouldn't surprise me if either of the Cheetahs are faster, but then again I don't have a particular impression of the speeds as-of that time in DB either.

Originally posted by Q99
It was more of a 'strangle with a tail and slam into stuff' than blitz-blitz, if you ask me.

scan

Cheetah in general tends towards slightly (or post-Zoom, noticeably) faster than Diana, who can catch speedsters on the edge of the speed force... so it wouldn't surprise me if either of the Cheetahs are faster, but then again I don't have a particular impression of the speeds as-of that time in DB either.

It was pretty obvious in that scan that cheetah was too fast for him, he couldnt even get in an attack. He winked out on Superman when Superman tried to use his heat vision.

Current Cheetah, yeah, I agree, I think she MIGHT be as fast as the Goku and Tien in that scan but I'm referring to the Cheetah that was fighting Superman.

And come on 099, you have to admit, even during combat, Flash doesnt even fight like what I showed you in that scan (even though I KNOW Flash is faster than any DBZ character).

Oh I didn't even notice the speed lines of the wink-out bit 🙂

I'll mention I came in way late to this debate so missed some of the scales, and also I'm of the general opinion both anime and US comics have *horrible* senses of scale when it comes to speed, and not only that, two different horrible senses of scale when it comes to speed.

DBZ characters do indeed often use speed better, but I'm not really sure if there can be a definitive rating of 'who's faster' as opposed to 'who's faster in this specific way'.

Originally posted by carver9
Yeah, you can post a scan of Superman or Wonder Woman or even Batman tagging flash but its called timed attacks, and even Hulk has that under his belt (you see this young lady thats blitzing hulk, she has a top record of going 93000 mps, so I guess Hulk have half light speed reflexes. WTF.).

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7116/lsh1d3in.jpg

😆 Hasn't Prof. Hulk like moved his arm at 1/4th the speed of light at one point or something like that?

Originally posted by Q99
Oh I didn't even notice the speed lines of the wink-out bit 🙂

I'll mention I came in way late to this debate so missed some of the scales, and also I'm of the general opinion both anime and US comics have *horrible* senses of scale when it comes to speed, and not only that, two different horrible senses of scale when it comes to speed.

DBZ characters do indeed often use speed better, but I'm not really sure if there can be a definitive rating of 'who's faster' as opposed to 'who's faster in this specific way'.

LOL, you are trying to be funny. Its not just the wink outs that I am talking about, they are completely gone from the battle field at a long, extended, pace of time.

LOL, why do you think anime and US comics have a horrible sense when it comes to speed. I think the speed feats for DBZ is outstanding and in regards to U.S. Comics, I think Anime characters and US character use their speed in a different fashion. Speed is just more common for ALL anime characters, especially DBZ.

Have a question, can you really say that a character can keep up or fight like a character if they havent as of yet to show the ability to use their speed in the same fashion?

Originally posted by Kento
That's like a Hulk from a different universe. Besides it's not like Hulk is as slow as people like to assume anyway.

😆 Hasn't Prof. Hulk like moved his arm at 1/4th the speed of light at one point or something like that?

😕 That wasnt Hulk from a different reality.

LOL at Hulk having light speed reaction. I guess everyone in comics can move at light speed.

🙄