Thanos with IG vs White Crown Phoenix

Thanos replaced Eternitys importance in the universe, he became the universe, however as Phoenix has conclusively demonstrated she wields more power than that contained within 616 (as ive previously illustrated) it isnt an equivalent feat. Big Wow!

The Silver Surfer/LT scene is NOt debatable. LT states what he was going to do. He said he was going to give him a connection to the infinite i.e he was going to hook him up to the infinite, make him one with universe, basically he gave him a measure of omniscience temporarily. The artist depicted this via close up panel shots of constellation like structures and over the panels it zoomed out to show SS's head adorned with those structures. As a standalone piece of evidence the art can be interpreted as either SS was made one with the universe as i have or that LT turned SS into a universe as you have and could be forgiven doing so under those circumstances. However as LT actually tells you what hes going to do there are no excuses. Lt granted SS momentary omniscience as he said he was going to, as the art can be depicted as him doing and as the Handbook reiterates.

Posting that scan of Captain Marvel granting someone omniscience, doesnt change those points. I could post a scan of Phoenix granting omniscience to someone and it looks totally different to both the LT and the C Marvel instances. Different nature of being involved in each instance, different power levels, different title, different artists therefore expecting the action to look the same across the board would be very very naïve. Either way useless exercise.

Genis Vell wasn’t threatening the universe out of sheer power. It wasn’t off his own back, or due to his own personal power it was because his rebirth was brought about by Baron Zemo using matter and energy from the Big Bang. Due to this everytime Genis used his powers he upset the balance of energy across the timeline because the Big Bang is all that was, is and will be in a Marvel universe. The point was illustrated in Thunderbolts issue 100, I have previously posted a scan. This is no feat of Genis’, it just illustrates how integral the Big Bang is to existence. The Big Bang that is by canon the energies of the Phoenix Force.

Not fussed about Pre retcon Beyonder, he doesn’t exist in continuity, he is brought up by fanboys who cant let go, who cant accept the fact that he bit the bullet over a decade ago.

Im not going to address that waffle about the cosmic vortex you diverted to. Its irrelevant to the Marvel: End issue. In that issue Thanos was stated to have absorbed the UNIVERSE. The reason you are trying to argue it was the multiverse was because after he absorbed Eternity and Infinity the universe never disappeared straightaway as you expected it would as you believe the Eternity humanoid figure to actually be the universe.Your refusal to accept whats actually stated on panel in the very issue we’re debating is down to your own misguided ideas about what that humanoid figure is, Allow me to illustrate the flaws in your comprehension.

If the humanoid Eternity figure was the totality of the universe then how could it then appear in the universe and talk to people? Surely if that figure composed all that was the universe then it couldn’t then appear within the universe.

If it was the totality of the universe then when it appeared on panel there would be no universe on panel anywhere else because according to your ideas it literally is the totality of the universe.

That humanoid figure is how the universe appears within itself, it is NOT the totality of the universe, it is just an MBody the sentience of the universe enlists to act within its totality (the actual universe). Eternity is the name for the sentience of the universe, the humanoid figure whilst being representative of Eternity is NOT the actual universe itself. That is why Thanos first absorbed these MBodys and then went on to absorb the actual universe before Adam Warlock arrived from a side dimension and talked of how Thanos destroyed the UNIVERSE.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Mankind is the key and not the Phoenix Force. There were five keys and Jean was the only key that touched cosmic hood - the touchstone. Bobby was the potential.

Eternity said it himself, the abstracts planned this all along: eventually a species would evolve to replace the abstracts.

Mankind is that which the abstracts are actually replaced with. Mankind on its own would NOT evolve to this point without the Phoenix Forces intervention in reality. The point is flat out stated on panel so there is no disregarding the Phoenixes central role in the process, as also indicated by Eternity positioning the Force as the central and most prominent figure when visualizing the process and the Strangers misguided plans.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
😆 Where on panel? Quote that exact phrase by either the Stranger, Prosh, or Eternity that Phoenix brings this about. An EXACT QUOTE and none of your misguided interpretations.

Already have done son.

Death says Jeans choosing of the Phoenix paves the road for the advancement:

Prosh echoes these sentiments, saying that if Jean never chose the Phoenix then the process would not occur. The abstracts would not be “stung by human evolution”

The Stranger marks out the Force as the beginning and end:

He also echoes Death and Proshs sentiments showing a Phoenix engulfed D.N.A chain, morphing into Eternity.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So does the Celestials. XMF said it already the Celestials were working for the abstracts to seed creation including the human race - NOT PF.

The Celestials were said to SEED humanity with the potential. Seeds cant grow without sunlight and water. The Phoenix was marked out by Death, Prosh and the Stranger as that which activates this potential and fuels this advancement. The Stranger saying it was the beginning and end before illustrating its driving role in the process, the process what results in the end for the abstracts and reality. Eternity marks out the Phoenix as that which sparks off the cycle anew after the death of the old and calls it the resurrection Force.

So there you have in the title the Phoenix marked out as the power behind the Big Bang and the driving force behind evolution a process which brings about the end.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
By the way, Kubik wasn't even afraid of the Dark Phoenix. He later was wary of coming near a Celestial since it could destroy them. LOL. Then they go on and run into the Living Tribunal who Kubik remarks as the most powerful being yet still a servant to TOAA. Phoenix Force wasn't even at the top of the food chain.

Silly silly. The Jean Grey Dark Phoenix wasn’t around at that point in continuity and wasn’t featured again until over a decade later, therefore it was a visualization. Don’t get too excited mate. Kubik does mark out LT as top of the food chain, no problem with that. I freely admit that in recent years he has more concsistently been marked out with that status. All I ask is for people to acknowledge the times when the Phoenix has been marked out by feat and word as top. You’re arguing with an outdated perspective of mine in mind. Your problem not mine.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Where's the EXACT QUOTE BY Stranger, Eternity, or any of the abstracts that states the Phoenix created the MULTIVERSE?

Noones using X-men Forever as evidence for Phoenix creating the multiverse, so why youre jumping to that conclusion i really dont know. Keep with it my friend. Phoenix has been given the role in multiple realities of being the power behind the Big Bang, the very energies that bring life to the void. It is said to be the very energies of the Big Bang itself in X-men the end, The Ultimate Universe and in the 616 reality. What makes the marvel multiverse a multiverse and not just a series of self contained universes is the similar cosmology shared through all

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Better yet, an exact quote that states Phoenix Force is above other abstracts?

NO INDIRECT references.

Feats which are multiversal or conclusively beyond anything that a universal power could achieve (due to common sense ) or has ever been shown to achieve are enough to class the Phoenix beyond the abstracts. You categorize characters and place them in a hierarchy based on feats. You cannot argue against the notion that a character with higher on panel feats is greater than one with much lower feats, just because of your dislike for the former.

1) The Phoenix is said to be the very energies of the Big Bang. The point is stated on panel by captions, by the Phoenix itself and by characters on panel.

2) The Big Bang is all the energy that was, is and will be in a reality. The universes of Marvel are closed. Further promoting the fact that Phoenix is the Big Bang, you have several instances of it being called the life force of reality, the force that would leave behind nothing but a void if it cut all ties with reality.

3) Phoenixes very power is that which sustains reality, is that which sparked reality into being in the first place, there is no doubting the Phoenix is greater than Eternity. Its avatar casually delivered fatal wounds to Eternity. All that is Eternity, an avatar had and manipulated in its hand demonstrating that even an avatar can wield more power than is contained within the universe. Given the considerably greater power showings from Phoenix, the argument that Eternity wasnt fighting back doesnt cut it. By your logic the same argument could be directed at the Ultimate Nullifier, The M'kraan crystal and other threats with conclusively universal destroying power amd yet no showing of Eternity fighting against them. Thats poor. Very poor.

One of the reasons behind your underrating of the Force is because of your lack of understanding of it. The Phoenix Force is a Consciousness from within the White Hot Room and the ambient life energy of reality. A shard of the Phoenix Force is still referred to as the Phoenix Force. Just like a duplicate of Multiple Mans is still multiple Man. The firebird you usually see flying around isnt the sum total of the Phoenix Force, it is a celestial avatar as stated on panel. The Force is the ambient energy of life and that fire bird is a manifestation of it, just like Eternitys black humanoid figure isnt the totality of the universe but instead a representation of it. If that bird was the sum total of the force in one spot then there would be no life anywhere else!! In the Ultraverse crossover it was stated that that Bird was depowered as it was away from its native reality that it draws its power from. Hence its low showings. The fire bird is an avatar that draws on the ambient life energy of its native reality

Rachel Grey is by continuity the weak Phoenix, the one who could only draw on the Force in limited amounts and had restricted access. With that in mind, to look at her poor showings and then try and present them as being representative of Phoenix avatars across the board is illogical and not very smart to be honest. As for Jean there has never been an incident within continuity where she has been killed through lack of power or ability. Self imposed limitations (psychic circuit breakers) and a higher purpose (as was actually stated on panel) have been the reason for Jean Phoenixes past deaths and defeats. Please find me an instance in continuity where a Jean Phoenix operating at full capacity has been defeated or overpowered by an opponent. Good luck!!

A higher purpose cant be used as a reason for LT coming up short as that would be speculation. With Jean we were told she going to die and that there was purpose behind her death. It was said she had a cosmic disinfection to perform. In the issue it happened Jean said she didnt know if she'd be allowed to hang around much longer. She wasnt and she got taken out of the equation.

As for the time traveller comment, ive already explained why Phoenixes feat couldnt be achieved through mere time travelling and mind control. You obviously havent bothered to read the thread and yet still insist on yapping away with expired points. Merely altering a past event results in a divergent timeline, one that would exist alongside the apocalyptic Here Comes Tomorrow timeline, leaving Sublime still a threat in reality and therefore being a rather pointless exercise. There was a reason why Phoenix actually amputated the future of 616. She then grew a brand new, standalone future from the "stump" by altering events.

I hope you understand now?

As an aside, please show me anywhere in Marvel where a being has been shown to be able to cut at the very substance of time? Phoenix could defeat countless opponents not by altering events or through a standard power struggle, but merely through completely cutting them out the timeline.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As for the time traveller comment, ive already explained why Phoenixes feat couldnt be achieved through mere time travelling and mind control. You obviously havent bothered to read the thread and yet still insist on yapping away with expired points. Merely altering a past event results in a divergent timeline, one that would exist alongside the apocalyptic Here Comes Tomorrow timeline, leaving Sublime still a threat in reality and therefore being a rather pointless exercise. There was a reason why Phoenix actually amputated the future of 616. She then grew a brand new, standalone future from the "stump" by altering events.

I hope you understand now?

As an aside, please show me anywhere in Marvel where a being has been shown to be able to cut at the very substance of time? Phoenix could defeat countless opponents not by altering events or through a standard power struggle, but merely through completely cutting them out the timeline.

your on fire man...preach brother preach 😄

I have provided scans saying Phoenix is the power behind the Big Bang, that it starts off the cycle by rebirthing itself as that very event.

You have nothing but your opinion that that isnt the case.

I have scans that show Phoenix performing feats greater than any other being in Marvel continuity and yet you would try and argue that Phoenix is no greater than the abstracts? 🤨

I have referred to instances where the "deaths" you like to focus on are explained away on panel, be it through self limitation, or cosmic destiny and yet you would dismiss that because you have nothing else to cling on to.

Find me a multitude of scan NOT that dont mention Phoenix as the Big Bang (because omittance doesnt equal dispute) but that say the very energies of the Big Bang belong to another being.

Without such things your argument is lame. 🙁

Originally posted by tiakocom
your on fire man...preach brother preach 😄

Thank u 😮

rare form, gs . . . 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
rare form, gs . . . 😄

Im working so much more these days so im finding myself gradually caring less and less. I just cant be f*cked sometimes. 😂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT had his power turned against him by Reed Richards machinery and got blown up.

Originally posted by bigbran
Non-canon, plus LT is still around today...so...

Canon is irrelevant when dealing with LT because LT is unique in the multiverse, there is only one LT, so........The MBody he used in that reality got effed up and it counts. 🙁

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Canon is irrelevant when dealing with LT because LT is unique in the multiverse, there is only one LT, so.... The MBody he used in that reality got effed up and it counts. 🙁

Plus, if he doesn't use M bodys, than that means that he did get destroyed, and that also means that he shouldn't exist. Hmm...

Plus I don't think LT would have problems getting rid of Galactus, so why don't we just include pis comics as well?

Originally posted by bigbran
M body? He uses them, other than in bios?
I know he is unique to the multiverse, so why don't we just use What-Ifs, and such too?

Plus, if he doesn't use M bodys, than that means that he did get destroyed, and that also means that he shouldn't exist. Hmm...

Plus I don't think LT would have problems getting rid of Galactus, so why don't we just include pis comics as well?

Dont argue with me son, got a problem take it to the writers. Either way your personal opinion of how things should be in the comics really isnt a substitute for good old fashioned on panel events. 🙂

LT is unique in the multiverse therefore canon doesnt apply for him. What If appearances no matter how stupid you think they might be, they count for him, the incident where he had his powers turned against him by Reeds machinery also counts.

The writer said that LT uses M Bodys at times, but in essence theres only one LT. His Mbody in that story arc just to reiterate got effed up 🙁

How dare you argue with him Bran????

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
How dare you argue with him Bran????

Once again realizing hes way out of his league when it comes to debating, Juggs watches from the sidelines awaiting the opportunity to splurt "humour" from his hole. 😬

Funny? ❌

Hot mess? ✅ indubitably 😮