Revan versus Kyp Durron

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Thats not logical at all. Simply because they were the best of an order of thousands does not equate to them having saber skills on par with say Mace Windu.

Maybe they're were both uber leet force users (and we know Revan was pretty damn powerful with the force), but shitty saber duelists, and thats why they were the best of the best. You cant conclude that Revan was a saber prodigy, as its not actually a prerequisite of him being one of the most powerful people in the galaxy. At this point the evidence points towards Revan being uber powerful force wise out of an order of thousands, not (nearly as much so) saber wise.

It IS possible that he was, and so was Malak. But without any kind of solid proof then I don't just assume things. Nor do we (in this forum) assume such things. So sorry, its still not good enough.

Originally posted by AcStylesVer01
Ugh why did you choose that picture for Revan there are so many better ones let alone the fact that Revan is black...

Sorry, do you mean black ala Mace Windu...?

He's second to Luke in the NJO except maybe Jacen but he is very powerful. I would say Revan can beat him up with the saber but in the Force I would say Kyp barely wins out

Vos, I am going to have to ask you to supply a bit more proof on Kyp's apparent uber force abilities. He manipulated one black hole. This alone cannot give him an advantage in an arena duel, because there are no black holes lying close to the contenders.

Revan possessed knowledge in the force that surpassed that held by the entire archives during PoD time period. Bane even mentioned that he could hardly rap his mind around their awesome potential. Malak also judged Revan, during their duel, as possessing an even greater ability in the lightside. One of Revan's abilities include the PoD force storm, an attack that is far more effective in a dueling situation.

Sure Kyp was the second best in his order, at the time. But he was leagues behind Luke. Luke was able to slaughter a hundred or so Vong warriors. Kyp was having trouble with two Vong slayers.

I have a question, where does it say that Revan is a saber prodigy?

Logical deductions really. Malak was generally considered a better duelist than Kavar, the top duelist of the martial Jedi Order of the time.

Revan defeated Malak in a duel aboard the Star Forge, and he defeated the empowered Sith Lord twice . A duel usually consists of lightsabers clashing and force attacks against one another. If Revan defeated an empowered Malak AT least twice, logic would dictate that he was far superiour to Malak.

Revan was also a master of Echani precognition, an ability when synergized with Jedi precognition gives him an advantage in dueling against Kyp Durron.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Why not? Mace was the best or second best in an order of tens of thousands. He was a lightsaber prodigy. Yoda WAS the best.. He was a lightsaber prodigy.. How is that NOT logical?

Name me one person who was among the best in the order, and shitty at saber dueling.

Not good enough for you maybe, but logical deduction says he WAS a prodigy.

Again, not logical.

Name one person who was among the best in the/ an order and was not a saber prodigy? Perhaps you should look at the name of this thread *COUGH*Kyp Durron*COUGH*

Enough said.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Sorry, do you mean black ala Mace Windu...?

Yes...what other kind of black is there?

And for Revan not only does he become more powerful in KOTOR as a Jedi but Post KOTOR he regains all his old memories thus regaining all his knowledge as a Sith Lord plus that of current Jedi status.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Again, not logical.

Name one person who was among the best in the/ an order and was not a saber prodigy? Perhaps you should look at the name of this thread *COUGH*Kyp Durron*COUGH*

Enough said.

By among the best I meant #1 and #2. Kyp is at least #3.. So you were saying?

Originally posted by AcStylesVer01
Yes...what other kind of black is there?

Darth Vader black???? 😛

Originally posted by AcStylesVer01
Yes...what other kind of black is there?

The things is, the dark side and ancient sith teachings especially were mostly real quick to learn (the darkside is stated to be a quick and easy path to power many times, for example once Aleema started studying sith magic, she grew in power by a phenomenal amount in such a short time) and vastly more devestating than lightside techniques, so the fact that Revan was stated to be more powerful as a jedi master (Malak states this, he had no reason to lie and is in a position to judge effectively) would indicate that he could wield the power of the lightside to a more devastating effect than he could to all his sith teachings, which to me suggests great great strength and mastery of the force.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
By among the best I meant #1 and #2. Kyp is at least #3.. So you were saying?

Grasping at straws much? The fact is that Kyp is arguably second to Luke in terms of force power. Which puts him "Among the best in the order"

And it proves that you can in fact be in the top tier of power, and not be very good with a lightsaber.

And even if I take what your saying and run with it, you've sill offered no actual premises that show that Revan is in fact a lightsaber prodigy.

(BTW, Yoda wasn't REALLY a lightsaber prodigy, he just had 800 years of practice, thats a huge difference) People like Anakin and Mace are lightsaber prodigies.

I mean even Sidious is an example of what I'm talking about. In terms of overall dueling ability, Sidious isn't really the best of the best in terms of saber dueling. Its VERY VERY arguable that ROTS Anakin is better then he is. I'd actually go as far to say that Anakin would probably beat Sidious in a pure saber fight. Sidious is good, but Yoda and Mace are slightly better at saber dueling then he is, as is Anakin more then likely. That means he's #3 on the saber skills list, but tied for 1st in the force power list (with Yoda).

Again, your saying that the best of the best are ALWAYS lightsaber prodigies. Thats completely unfounded, even if coincidently it happens to be true that most of the top tier are decent with a lightsaber, its not an actual formulatic argument.

It does not follow in any way that "Best Jedi/ Sith = Lightsaber prodigy" Kyp is probably the best example of this, Sidious is also a good example. As is Kreia.

Your drawing conclusions that Revan MUST be a saber prodigy, and your drawing these conclusions, not by having evidence of Revan being one, but your using other people and saying it somehow also applies to Revan. Its BS, plain and simple.

All top Jedi and Sith are Lightsaber prodigies
Revan is the top Jedi
Therefore Revan is a lightsaber prodigy.

Thats the argument your using, but P1 fails due to the fact that not all of the top Jedi/ Sith are lightsaber prodigies. Nor is it a necessary condition for them to be lightsaber prodigies if they are in the top tier, your argument fails here.

Again, I'm not saying that Revan is a crappy saber duelist. He is no doubt good, from what we've seen him do. But is he on the level of Anakin or Mace, or Exar Kun, or other stated proven lightsaber prodigies? No. Not until there is either 1) legitimate comparative evidence that can prove it or 2) It is explicitly stated somewhere. Neither of which have happened. You can believe that Revan is a lightsaber prodigy, but don't start trying to tout it around as fact when it isn't.

Just one thing Anomaly, how do you know Yoda wasn't a saber prodgidy? Maybe he was a prodgidy when he was younger, I mean, he was damn old in the PT and OT, he probably moved even faster when he was younger. (The fact that he enhances his body from walking with a stick or levetating in a chair, to jumping around faster than anybody in the whole PT) He also had the highest midichlorians count in the PT order except for Anakin...

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
[B]Grasping at straws much? The fact is that Kyp is arguably second to Luke in terms of force power. Which puts him "Among the best in the order"

And it proves that you can in fact be in the top tier of power, and not be very good with a lightsaber.

(BTW, Yoda wasn't REALLY a lightsaber prodigy, he just had 800 years of practice, thats a huge difference) People like Anakin and Mace are lightsaber prodigies.

I mean even Sidious is an example of what I'm talking about. In terms of overall dueling ability, Sidious isn't really the best of the best in terms of saber dueling. Its VERY VERY arguable that ROTS Anakin is better then he is. I'd actually go as far to say that Anakin would probably beat Sidious in a pure saber fight. Sidious is good, but Yoda and Mace are slightly better at saber dueling then he is, as is Anakin more then likely. That means he's #3 on the saber skills list, but tied for 1st in the force power list (with Yoda).

Again, your saying that the best of the best are ALWAYS lightsaber prodigies. Thats completely unfounded, even if coincidently it happens to be true that most of the top tier are decent with a lightsaber, its not an actual formulatic argument.

It does not follow in any way that "Best Jedi/ Sith = Lightsaber prodigy" Kyp is probably the best example of this, Sidious is also a good example. As is Kreia.

Your drawing conclusions that Revan MUST be a saber prodigy, and your drawing these conclusions, not by having evidence of Revan being one, but your using other people and saying it somehow also applies to Revan. Its BS, plain and simple.

All top Jedi and Sith are Lightsaber prodigies
Revan is the top Jedi
Therefore Revan is a lightsaber prodigy.

Thats the argument your using, but P1 fails due to the fact that not all of the top Jedi/ Sith are lightsaber prodigies. Nor is it a necessary condition for them to be lightsaber prodigies if they are in the top tier, your argument fails here.

Or we could go by the fact that he beat Malak on the SF when Malak was being described as near invincible, had an extraordinary and twisted control of the DS, was the best duelist in the Jedi and Sith Order(save for Revan) since he beat Kavar who was known as the best. And Revan beat this in a duel...twice as a padawan with months of actual experience under his belt. Revans power and skill speak for themselves, and then we have Vandar calling him a prodigy.

Originally posted by AcStylesVer01
Or we could go by the fact that he beat Malak on the SF when Malak was being described as near invincible, had an extraordinary and twisted control of the DS, was the best duelist in the Jedi and Sith Order(save for Revan) since he beat Kavar who was known as the best. And Revan beat this in a duel...twice as a padawan with months of actual experience under his belt. Revans power and skill speak for themselves, and then we have Vandar calling him a prodigy.

Well there we go

While Durron may have manipulated a black hole, that is the only ability that impressed me. However this does not even translate into a dueling arena situation. Also Durron may have guided a lightning bolt into an ancient Sith Worm, but I would rank this below a full fledged force storm (as described by PoD, KOTOR.)

What about the fact that he had enough power in telekinesis to shove an capital ship with a wave of his hand and there was zero noticable drain from the force expenditure. The amount of power in that gesture rivals what Bane did to the Temple on Lehon and Bane had to charge up for the attack and was extremely drained afterwards. Revan may be better than Bane, but it's not by a ton from what I have thus far seen.

Oh, and Kyp killed a Leviathan with the lightning attack, not a Sith Wyrm. It must have been a literally MASSIVE amount of lightning, as Leviathan's were described by the NEC as "superweapons". You don't call something a superweapon if you can kill it with your average force storm.

ok so what if kyp manipulated a black hole? does that mean he is uber? no, nihilus even pulled the ravager from orbit on malachor v and held the ship together with his will does that mean he is uber? no

lightsaber combat = revan
force = revan

Prove any of that.

Well as for Lightsaber combat, Revan single handedly destroyed an entire academy of Sith, killed Uthar, beat Pumped Up Malak twice and had a Battle Precognition stronger then the highest of the Echani generals who could predict battles months in advanced.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Again, I did not specify the first time, but either way you don't know Kyp isn't good with a saber.. Revan and Malak were 1 an 2, and were great, I guess Kas'im and Bane were 1 and 2, and were great, Yoda and Mace were 1 and 2, and were great.. See the pattern?

I would say someone that mastered all 7 forms in lightsaber combat and was never beaten, makes him a prodigy.

Wrong, its not arguable. Sidious practiced all 7 forms and had the ability to move faster than the eye could see. Read the Journals of Darth Maul before you make that assumption.

Always, maybe not, nothing is definite, but the statement was 99% accurate.

Sidious was incredible with a lightsaber, and we don't know enough about Kreia to throw her into this.

I am saying it's logical to think Revan is most likely a lightsaber prodigy. He was never beaten, and be beat Malak twice..

Or Revan was never beaten and he defeated Malak..

Except for the fact that you've proven that pretty much all the BEST jedi/sith are lightsaber prodigies.. Just because Anakin was stated as a lightsaber prodigy and Revan wasn't in no way means Anakin>revan. That's not a very good argument.

1. Yoda has never been beaten? Even in his youth? Ever? Oh wait, we don't know anything about Errr....800 years of his life. Ohhhh I get it, your just assuming things again. Gotcha.

Yoda was a saber prodigy? Not proven, unless you have such proof that Yoda had mastered any style to a degree of say, Anakin, when he was 20ish years old. Oh wait, again, you don't. Being a saber prodigy and having 800 years to learn everything are VERY different things. You don't think Anakin would master all 7 forms if he could train for 800 years? Seriously, give ANY Jedi 800 years to train and they could learn all 7 forms. BS and unsupported assumptions yet again.

2. and yet Sidious got put on his @ss in saber combat by Windu. There's no doubt that Sidious is very good with a saber. But he's not as good as Anakin or Mace or Yoda. Btw, does it actually say that Sidious practiced all 7 forms somewhere? or are you just making that up too? Last I checked all we had were assumptions of what form Sidious practiced. I'm not saying your wrong, but I want something to prove that Sidious practiced all 7 forms, because I've never seen any proof.

3. And thats where your argument fails. And where you proceed to not comprehend what I'm telling you. Even if by coincidence MOST of the top tier Jedi/ Sith are saber prodigies, it does not follow that ALL Jedi have to be.

Heres a question for you. If you took away LOTF Luke's lightsaber skills, and assume that he's never seen or used a saber before, but kept his force powers exactly the same, do you think that he'd no longer be considered the most powerful person in the galaxy? No, he would still be the most powerful person in the galaxy (and in the SW universe). Lightsaber skill and force power are not inherently connected together by logical thinking. It is possible to be shitty with a lightsaber, and UBER powerful with the force, to the point (like say Luke, or Revan) where no one could beat you anyways, even if you sucked with a saber. Even Palpatine states this in a manner in DE when he grows tired and says "I've had enough of your Jedi dueling games". People who are THAT powerful with the force don't need lightsaber skill, nor does it follow that they ALL have Uber saber skills. Uber saber skills does not equal uber force power, right? So why does uber force power equal saber skills? It doesn't, because you CAN, in fact, have one without the other.

4. Sidious was VERY good with a lightsaber, but he wasn't quite Mace or Yoda or possibly even Anakin (Even arguably Dooku for that matter).

5. And where exactly was it stated again that Malak was a saber prodigy? Seeing as we know little of how powerful Malak actually was in comparison to people who we can gauge they're power (because we have proof) you cant say Revan beating Malak would then allow you to deduce that he could beat, say, Windu. We have no real proof of Malak's saber skill, and until we do, saying Revan beat him in no way is a judge of his saber skill. Again, maybe Malak was uber in the force, and maybe thats why he was the next powerful person in the galaxy at the time. There's no way to know, so There's nothing you can say other then "We don't know enough about Revan's (or Malak's) saber prowess to compare then to other known saber prodigies.