Revan versus Kyp Durron

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
5. And where exactly was it stated again that Malak was a saber prodigy? Seeing as we know little of how powerful Malak actually was in comparison to people who we can gauge they're power (because we have proof) you cant say Revan beating Malak would then allow you to deduce that he could beat, say, Windu. We have no real proof of Malak's saber skill, and until we do, saying Revan beat him in no way is a judge of his saber skill. Again, maybe Malak was uber in the force, and maybe thats why he was the next powerful person in the galaxy at the time. There's no way to know, so There's nothing you can say other then "We don't know enough about Revan's (or Malak's) saber prowess to compare then to other known saber prodigies.

We have the fact that he beat the known best saber user in the Jedi Order of Thousands.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
We have the fact that he beat the known best saber user in the Jedi Order of Thousands.

Ahem second best..

Oh yeah forgot about Revan for a second.

Hold up, because Kavar was the leader of the jedi guardians, he must be the best duelist? More likely he would be the Mace Windu of the order, not necessarily the best.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
We have the fact that he beat the known best saber user in the Jedi Order of Thousands.

Proof?

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Hold up, because Kavar was the leader of the jedi guardians, he must be the best duelist? More likely he would be the Mace Windu of the order, not necessarily the best.

^^This is Exactly right. Any statement that is a "more then likely" statement is speculation. Even this statemenet is speculation (the fact that he was "the Mace Windu of the order"😉

Again, ALL have is speculation. Nothing more. You then proceed to "Prove" your speculation with even more speculation. It doesn't work. You need solid facts, none of which you have.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Proof?

^^This is Exactly right.

Again, ALL have is speculation. Nothing more. You then proceed to "Prove" your speculation with even more speculation. It doesn't work. You need solid facts, none of which you have.

Actually Mace Windu wasn't the leader, Yoda was.. And Yoda was the best. Malak might not have been a lightsaber prodigy, but he was better than everybody but Revan and whoever cut off his jaw. Not to mention that probably happened before he found the starforge and became more powerful.

Actually Mace Windu wasn't the leader, Yoda was.. And Yoda was the best..

Yes I know this, what does this have to do with anything?

Malak might not have been a lightsaber prodigy, but he was better than everybody but Revan and whoever cut off his jaw. Not to mention that probably happened before he found the starforge and became more powerful.

You see, the problem is that your equating force power with saber skill

your using the equation:

Force Power=Saber skill

Malak getting stronger with the Starforge has nothing to do with his saber skill. It has to do with his force powers. That equation is flawed because if force power equals saber skill, then saber skill MUST equal force power. This is obviously not true, given examples such as Kas'Im, or Cin Drillag, etc. etc. Who are just good at saber dueling, and not so great with the force.

So if saber skill does not equal force power, then force power does not equal saber skill. Therefore, given that Revan and Malak were in fact quite powerful with the force (which we DO know) then we can only conclude that they were powerful with the force, because force power does not equal saber skill and vise virsa.

Therefore your conclusion that Revan must be a saber master of the highest caliber is flawed based on that premise. So then it is inconclusive how good or bad Revan was with a lightsaber, which means calling him "a saber prodigy" is nothing near fact.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Yes I know this, what does this have to do with anything?

You see, the problem is that your equating force power with saber skill

your using the equation:

Force Power=Saber skill

Malak getting stronger with the Starforge has nothing to do with his saber skill. It has to do with his force powers. That equation is flawed because if force power equals saber skill, then saber skill MUST equal force power. This is obviously not true, given examples such as Kas'Im, or Cin Drillag, etc. etc. Who are just good at saber dueling, and not so great with the force.

So if saber skill does not equal force power, then force power does not equal saber skill. Therefore, given that Revan and Malak were in fact quite powerful with the force (which we DO know) then we can only conclude that they were powerful with the force, because force power does not equal saber skill and vise virsa.

Therefore your conclusion that Revan must be a saber master of the highest caliber is flawed based on that premise. So then it is inconclusive how good or bad Revan was with a lightsaber, which means calling him "a saber prodigy" is nothing near fact. [/B]

You do understand that your dueling abilities are largely due to force mastery right? Anakin became one of the best in what, less than 10 years? This is what you're failing to understand. Force mastery DOES matter in saber dueling.
And on the other hand, if you suck with a saber, you suck with a saber. You have Maul, who is probably NOT on par with Qui Gonn or Obiwan, tear the two up. Then you have Luke, who can barely fight with a saber, owning Vader. Why? Because of his force potential+force abilities.

What about the fact that he had enough power in telekinesis to shove an capital ship with a wave of his hand and there was zero noticable drain from the force expenditure. The amount of power in that gesture rivals what Bane did to the Temple on Lehon and Bane had to charge up for the attack and was extremely drained afterwards. Revan may be better than Bane, but it's not by a ton from what I have thus far seen.

Bane was just assuming the title of dark lord of the sith. Plus he was just fighting against one of the best duelists in the galaxy before he used said attack.... of course he would be tired. The attack Bane used was a blast of force energy. Kyp, according to how you described, used telekenesis. Vastly different.

This feat is significant, but this does not translate well into an arena fight. Revan can defend against these attacks with his own telekenesis. He has formally learned force storm, enough to interrupt Kyp. Aside from that he knew a multitude of other dark side technique's that put Bane in awe, as well as a host of other lightside abilities that Malak replied as being even greater.

amount of lightning, as Leviathan's were described by the NEC as "superweapons". You don't call something a superweapon if you can kill it with your average force storm.

I want proof of how much electrical energy is required to kill one. I believe in the actual comic he directed a lightning bolt to hit the leviathan. Not the same as a force storm.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You do understand that your dueling abilities are largely due to force mastery right? Anakin became one of the best in what, less than 10 years? This is what you're failing to understand. Force mastery DOES matter in saber dueling.
And on the other hand, if you suck with a saber, you suck with a saber. You have Maul, who is probably NOT on par with Qui Gonn or Obiwan, tear the two up. Then you have Luke, who can barely fight with a saber, owning Vader. Why? Because of his force potential+force abilities.

Thank you for proving my point, and contradicting yourself in your own paragraph.

Here you have Maul, who is not Qui-Gon in the force department, put Qui-Gon down easily with a saber (saber /= force power)

Then you have Luke or Anakin, who is very powerful force wise, who are good with a saber.

Then you have Kas'Im who is amazing with a saber, like Maul, but are so so with the force. Or Cin Drillag, who is the battle master of the PT era, and yet meh force wise.

Since equations must be equal (as you'd have noted had you payed attention to my previous posts) then if dueling ability does not equal force power (like the examples of Maul, and Cin, and Kas'Im), then Force power cannot equal saber skill.

You cant have:

Force Power = Saber Skill

and also have:

Saber skill /= Force power

It does not make logical sense, its a contradiction. It must be either Does, or Does Not. Since the likes of Maul, Cin, Kas'Im prove that Saber skill /= Force power then it becomes a Does Not statement. Obviously though, there in fact ARE people who have both Saber skill AND Force power, but since we've proven that Saber skill /= Force power then any people who actually do have saber skill and force power are simply just lucky, its a coincidence. It is however, not a necessity for them to have saber skill, as it makes no logical sense.

Therefore, simply because Revan was powerful force wise, it does not necessarily follow that he had acute saber skill. And since it does not necessarily follow, then it is a unknown. And since it is an unknown, then it is NOT a fact, as you've seemingly decided it should be.

i assume revan might use Soresu by the way he held his lightsaber on the leviathen bridge deck, very similar to kenobis stance of soresu on utapau before he crushed the 4 magnaguards

Originally posted by King Adas
Hold up, because Kavar was the leader of the jedi guardians, he must be the best duelist? More likely he would be the Mace Windu of the order, not necessarily the best.

Didn't it state in KOTOR 2 that Malak defeated Kavar?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Thank you for proving my point, and contradicting yourself in your own paragraph.

Here you have Maul, who is not Qui-Gon in the force department, put Qui-Gon down easily with a saber (saber /= force power)

Then you have Luke or Anakin, who is very powerful force wise, who are good with a saber.

Then you have Kas'Im who is amazing with a saber, like Maul, but are so so with the force. Or Cin Drillag, who is the battle master of the PT era, and yet meh force wise.

Since equations must be equal (as you'd have noted had you payed attention to my previous posts) then if dueling ability does not equal force power (like the examples of Maul, and Cin, and Kas'Im), then Force power cannot equal saber skill.

You cant have:

Force Power = Saber Skill

and also have:

Saber skill /= Force power

It does not make logical sense, its a contradiction. It must be either Does, or Does Not. Since the likes of Maul, Cin, Kas'Im prove that Saber skill /= Force power then it becomes a Does Not statement. Obviously though, there in fact ARE people who have both Saber skill AND Force power, but since we've proven that Saber skill /= Force power then any people who actually do have saber skill and force power are simply just lucky, its a coincidence. It is however, not a necessity for them to have saber skill, as it makes no logical sense.

Therefore, simply because Revan was powerful force wise, it does not necessarily follow that he had acute saber skill. And since it does not necessarily follow, then it is a unknown. And since it is an unknown, then it is NOT a fact, as you've seemingly decided it should be.

I fail to see how I contradicted myself. Your whole argument is if A=B, then B=A, which is incorrect.

i know i'm jumpin in to the conversation but anomoly i think what they are saying with the whole force power=saber skills is that if you're uber with the force and give yourself to the force going just off of it's will while fighting with a lightsaber you're more than liekly going to win because it's the force guiding you not yourself. " the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force." so i think they didn't explain that part well enough.

so i think thats what they were saying someone tell me if i'm wrong on that though.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
i know i'm jumpin in to the conversation but anomoly i think what they are saying with the whole force power=saber skills is that if you're uber with the force and give yourself to the force going just off of it's will while fighting with a lightsaber you're more than liekly going to win because it's the force guiding you not yourself. " the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force." so i think they didn't explain that part well enough.

so i think thats what they were saying someone tell me if i'm wrong on that though.

I'm not denying that it indeed helps on that basic level, but even if an uber powerful force user "gave himself to the force" and had no prior saber training (or was just shitty with a saber) went up against someone who was not powerful with the force, but extremely amazing with a saber, the person who "gave himself to the force" still wouldn't last long against a saber master. It might give him an extra 30 seconds to live or so, but other then that it wouldn't make that much difference.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I fail to see how I contradicted myself. Your whole argument is if A=B, then B=A, which is incorrect.

Then you fail to comprehend basic logic. Which is not my fault. Maybe you should read it more carefully. Its logically correct, what your saying makes no sense at all, and, is logically contradictory.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I'm not denying that it indeed helps on that basic level, but even if an uber powerful force user "gave himself to the force" and had no prior saber training (or was just shitty with a saber) went up against someone who was not powerful with the force, but extremely amazing with a saber, the person who "gave himself to the force" still wouldn't last long against a saber master. It might give him an extra 30 seconds to live or so, but other then that it wouldn't make that much difference.

Then you fail to comprehend basic logic. Which is not my fault. Maybe you should read it more carefully. Its logically correct, what your saying makes no sense at all, and, is logically contradictory.

Once again, your logic is if A=B, then B=A.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Once again, your logic is if A=B, then B=A.

Pray tell, what are you talking about?

Originally posted by King Adas
Pray tell, what are you talking about?

Indeed...

who knows

Perhaps if you actually read what I was talking about, then you'd understand it.

It is indeed A=B then B=A. What your failing to comprehend is WHY this is the case.

I will not repeat it because of other peoples lack of comprehension of it. So go back, read it. Then, come up (if you can) with a proper response to it. Thats the way debating works. You should try it sometime.

So far all you've given me is "No, your wrong". Sorry, but in debating, "No" isnt good enough.