Re: Let's talk about Sodom and Gomorrha.
Bumped this thread - due to an argument I had over in *Homosexuality* one.(which I stated I would no longer reply in - because my point had been made, so to keep my word - I've bumped this - in order to continue my argument).
Many are under the impression that *homosexuality* wasn't the reason for Sodom and Gommorha's destruction. This is a innaccurate claim at best, misleading one at worst.
The city was an extremely depraved one - and many unnatural and/or abysmal sins were commited within it(homosexuality being among them). Despite such practices taking place in other nations(at the time) - Sodom was by far the most depraved. Sadly their was not even *one* man in this city, that was righteous(or repentant) save Lot. So depraved was this people, that the men even wished to engage in sexual sin with angels(those in the form of men).
The bible does not go into any further explicit detail about the depravity, however, one can draw their own conclusions from the story(from God's judgement - the nation itself was completely whipped off the map, nothing of it remains to this day).
In relation to the homosexuality thread - I ask anyone who believes that homosexual *attraction* is not a sin, please explain to me why a loving God, would put such an unnatural *attraction* within a man, and then condemn him for it, as he did - with the city of Sodom(and Gommorha).
(This thread is not meant to condemn or call anyone out, I just really felt it necessary to clarify why some feel homosexual *attraction* is not sinful - even though it is blantantly demonstrated as being such, within the bible)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So basically you're indirectly replying to that thread in this one, however are still really replying to that thread. Nice cop out. No wonder you're fond of the hypocritical god of Christianity.
A hypocrite who lives in a glass house - shouldn't throw stones, for not only will the stones shatter the glass that encompasses him, but it will also cause him to be on the receiving end of any shards produced by the fractured glass. Only the wise hypocrite, however, will be able remove the glass shards embedded within his skin, and apply the appropriate bandages/remedies to heal his wounds.
Moving on..my argument applies to the topic of this thread(Sodom and Gomorrha) - the only relation it has to the other thread is the argument against *homosexual* attraction not being one of the reasons for the city's destruction. I'm attempting to inquire as to how those who believe this *attraction*(homosexual) is not a sin - can disregard this particular story - and God's obvious condemnation of those who partook in such *attractions*
Let me post the scripture pertaining to the story(of Sodom and Gommorha) for all to review.
Genesis 19:1-8
The two angels came to Sodom at evening. Lot sat in the gate of Sodom. Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them. He bowed himself with his face to the earth,2 and he said, "See now, my lords, please turn aside into your servant's house, stay all night, wash your feet, and you can rise up early, and go on your way." They said, "No, but we will stay in the street all night."
3 He urged them greatly, and they came in with him, and entered into his house. He made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter.
5 They called to Lot, and said to him, "Where are the men who came in to you this night? Bring them out to us, that we may have sex with them."
6 Lot went out to them to the door, and shut the door after him.
7 He said, "Please, my brothers, don't act so wickedly.
8 See now, I have two virgin daughters. Please let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them what seems good to you. Only don't do anything to these men, because they have come under the shadow of my roof."
Why would a righteous man such as Lot condemn such an *attraction*(homosexual) and behaviour as wicked? Lot was versed with God's word(as was Abraham) - did he err in judgement regarding this being a *natural attraction*? I would think that if this *attraction* towards men was natural and unsinful, Lot would have offered himself to the men, as opposed to his virgin daughters.
I'm interested in knowing others thoughts regarding why Lot didn't offer himself(sexually) in this scenario(only from those who view homosexual *attraction* - as being an unsinful behaviour).
Originally posted by usagi_yojimboYou're a poet, you just don't know it.
A hypocrite who lives in a glass house - shouldn't throw stones, for not only will the stones shatter the glass that encompasses him, but it will also cause him to be on the receiving end of any shards produced by the fractured glass. Only the wise hypocrite, however, will be able remove the glass shards embedded within his skin, and apply the appropriate bandages/remedies to heal his wounds.
Hmm, I wonder what deep spiritual message I'm meant to take from this - but really all I'm getting is that you should stay out of the Louvre Pyramid.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
So many words.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
So many words with so little said.
Also, I thank you for ignoring every one of the points I initially raised.
thats all whob knows how to do. debating, to him, is yelling through a megaphone while having his ears sealed shut with earplugs. once his "im open for disagreement" facade wears off (somebody challenges him with a valid point) he runs like a chickenshit coward to avoid the reality that he's an idiot.....no, more like an idiot's idiot
now wait for the cry of "group think"
Originally posted by FeceMan
"Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”Thank you for ignoring the fact that I had the story on the first page.
Also, I thank you for ignoring every one of the points I initially raised.
Let us go ahead and look at the *entire* passage...
Ezekiel 16 1-51
1 Again the word of Yahweh came to me, saying,
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations;
3 and say, Thus says the Lord Yahweh to Jerusalem: Your birth and your birth is of the land of the Canaanite; the Amorite was your father, and your mother was a Hittite.
4 As for your birth, in the day you were born your navel was not cut, neither were you washed in water to cleanse you; you weren't salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
5 No eye pitied you, to do any of these things to you, to have compassion on you; but you were cast out in the open field, for that your person was abhorred, in the day that you were born.
6 When I passed by you, and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you, Though you are in your blood, live; yes, I said to you, Though you are in your blood, live.
7 I caused you to multiply as that which grows in the field, and you increased and grew great, and you attained to excellent ornament; your breasts were fashioned, and your hair was grown; yet you were naked and bare.
8 Now when I passed by you, and looked at you, behold, your time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over you, and covered your nakedness: yes, I swore to you, and entered into a covenant with you, says the Lord Yahweh, and you became mine.
9 Then washed I you with water; yes, I thoroughly washed away your blood from you, and I anointed you with oil.
10 I clothed you also with embroidered work, and shod you with sealskin, and I girded you about with fine linen, and covered you with silk.
11 I decked you with ornaments, and I put bracelets on your hands, and a chain on your neck.
12 I put a ring on your nose, and earrings in your ears, and a beautiful crown on your head.
13 Thus you were decked with gold and silver; and your clothing was of fine linen, and silk, and embroidered work; you ate fine flour, and honey, and oil; and you were exceeding beautiful, and you prospered to royal estate.
14 Your renown went forth among the nations for your beauty; for it was perfect, through my majesty which I had put on you, says the Lord Yahweh.
15 But you trusted in your beauty, and played the prostitute because of your renown, and poured out your prostitution on everyone who passed by; his it was.
16 You took of your garments, and made for yourselves high places decked with various colors, and played the prostitute on them: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
17 You also took your beautiful jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself images of men, and played the prostitute with them;
18 and you took your embroidered garments, and covered them, and did set my oil and my incense before them.
19 My bread also which I gave you, fine flour, and oil, and honey, with which I fed you, you even set it before them for a pleasant aroma; and thus it was, says the Lord Yahweh.
20 Moreover you have taken your sons and your daughters, whom you have borne to me, and you have sacrificed these to them to be devoured. Was your prostitution a small matter,
21 that you have slain my children, and delivered them up, in causing them to pass through the fire to them?
22 In all your abominations and your prostitution you have not remembered the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, and were wallowing in your blood.
23 It has happened after all your wickedness, (woe, woe to you! says the Lord Yahweh),
24 that you have built for yourselves a vaulted place, and have made yourselves a lofty place in every street.
25 You have built your lofty place at the head of every way, and have made your beauty an abomination, and have opened your feet to everyone who passed by, and multiplied your prostitution.
26 You have also committed sexual immorality with the Egyptians, your neighbors, great of flesh; and have multiplied your prostitution, to provoke me to anger.
27 See therefore, I have stretched out my hand over you, and have diminished your ordinary food, and delivered you to the will of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who are ashamed of your lewd way.
28 You have played the prostitute also with the Assyrians, because you were insatiable; yes, you have played the prostitute with them, and yet you weren't satisfied.
29 You have moreover multiplied your prostitution to the land of merchants, to Chaldea; and yet you weren't satisfied with this.
30 How weak is your heart, says the Lord Yahweh, seeing you do all these things, the work of an impudent prostitute;
31 in that you build your vaulted place at the head of every way, and make your lofty place in every street, and have not been as a prostitute, in that you scorn pay.
32 A wife who commits adultery! who takes strangers instead of her husband!
33 They give gifts to all prostitutes; but you give your gifts to all your lovers, and bribe them, that they may come to you on every side for your prostitution.
34 You are different from other women in your prostitution, in that no one follows you to play the prostitute; and whereas you give hire, and no hire is given to you, therefore you are different.
35 Therefore, prostitute, hear the word of Yahweh:
36 Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Because your filthiness was poured out, and your nakedness uncovered through your prostitution with your lovers; and because of all the idols of your abominations, and for the blood of your children, that you gave to them;
37 therefore see, I will gather all your lovers, with whom you have taken pleasure, and all those who you have loved, with all those who you have hated; I will even gather them against you on every side, and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness.
38 I will judge you, as women who break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will bring on you the blood of wrath and jealousy.
39 I will also give you into their hand, and they shall throw down your vaulted place, and break down your lofty places; and they shall strip you of your clothes, and take your beautiful jewels; and they shall leave you naked and bare.
40 They shall also bring up a company against you, and they shall stone you with stones, and thrust you through with their swords.
41 They shall burn your houses with fire, and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women; and I will cause you to cease from playing the prostitute, and you shall also give no hire any more.
42 So will I cause my wrath toward you to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from you, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.
43 Because you have not remembered the days of your youth, but have raged against me in all these things; therefore, behold, I also will bring your way on your head, says the Lord Yahweh: and you shall not commit this lewdness with all your abominations.
44 Behold, everyone who uses proverbs shall use this proverb against you, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.
45 You are the daughter of your mother, who loathes her husband and her children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and their children: your mother was a Hittite, and your father an Amorite.
46 Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells at your left hand, she and her daughters; and your younger sister, who dwells at your right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
47 Yet have you not walked in their ways, nor done after their abominations; but, as if that were a very little thing, you were more corrupt than they in all your ways.
48 As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, Sodom your sister has not done, she nor her daughters, as you have done, you and your daughters.
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: pride, fullness of bread, and prosperous ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 They were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
51 Neither has Samaria committed half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all your abominations which you have done.
Cont...
52 You also, bear you your own shame, in that you have given judgment for your sisters; through your sins that you have committed more abominable than they, they are more righteous that you: yes, be also confounded, and bear your shame, in that you have justified your sisters.
53 I will turn again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and the captivity of your captives in the midst of them;
54 that you may bear your own shame, and may be ashamed because of all that you have done, in that you are a comfort to them.
55 Your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate; and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate; and you and your daughters shall return to your former estate.
56 For your sister Sodom was not mentioned by your mouth in the day of your pride,
57 before your wickedness was uncovered, as at the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria, and of all who are around her, the daughters of the Philistines, who do despite to you all around.
58 You have borne your lewdness and your abominations, says Yahweh.
59 For thus says the Lord Yahweh: I will also deal with you as you have done, who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant.
60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish to you an everlasting covenant.
61 Then you shall remember your ways, and be ashamed, when you shall receive your sisters, your elder sisters and your younger; and I will give them to you for daughters, but not by your covenant.
62 I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall know that I am Yahweh;
63 that you may remember, and be confounded, and never open your mouth any more, because of your shame, when I have forgiven you all that you have done, says the Lord Yahweh.
As you can see from the passage listed in Ezekiel, pride is the root of all sin. Like the city of Sodom(and Gomorrah), the people of Israel were extremely depraved during this time - and sinned in abundance(by engaging in sexual sin such as homosexuality, worshiping idols, performing sacrifices using humans...) However, their major sin was the*pride* that they had, when engaging in such behaviours. Their was no repentance, no remorse for these actions - they *pridefully* went about engaging in them(like the people of Sodom) - cursing their true Lord and Saviour while doing so.
You have asked previously(in other threads), why God didn't destroy other cities - that engaged in similar sexual depravity? The answer to this is simple - no other city, during that time, was as *prideful* with their depravity as Sodom. To state that the people of Sodom were guilty of just *pride*, and that being guilty of this *pride* in someway excuses the inherent sin of *homosexuality* -- is a legalistic, Pharisaical, and Satanic method of interpreting the scriptures.
This is the same type of debate style used by the Pharisees, when they asked questions of Jesus(which entailed taking scriptures out of context, or reciting one simple verse as the crux of their argument - to justify sinful behaviour). This is a very unbecoming debate style for you, particularly since you post many relevant and well thought out Christian ideas in other threads.
If you feel the need to repost any other arguments that you feel I haven't adressed, please do so now. Again, my purpose is not to condemn - but it is to inform of the incorrectness of the position of homosexual *attraction* not being sinful.
First, Usagi's Bible quote is one of those retranslated texts that takes liberty based in interpretation of meaning.
5 They called to Lot, and said to him, "Where are the men who came in to you this night? Bring them out to us, that we may have sex with them."
The proper and direct translation does not read as this. The term "know" as used in a sexual manner is a much more entailed activity than just sex, it refers to an extremely intimate and thorough knowledge of a person, including sexual acts but in no way limited in scope to only sexual acts, even though the term does include sexual acts in all usage. Thus using the phrase "that we may have sex with them is correct, but is also an oversimplification.
Now, I think Fece was rather well thought out in his assessment at the beginning of this thread. The cities had much sin in them, but homosexuality was just one of many.
I do believe the story of the events surrounding them have been incorrectly recorded. I do not believe offering one's daughters to be raped is in any manner an acceptable course of action. So either Lot was not a very good man and thus the Angels did not even want to spend the night in his home or Lot was a good man and the offer of his daughters is an example of erroneous recording of events. Another example of probable error is the seeming condoning of Lot's daughters' rape of their father.
Given the probable errors and obvious contradictions in the story, the entire story of Lot must be interpretted with caution, imo. I believe much of the story is symbolic and metaphorical in nature, even the destruction should be viewed as probably exaggerated in nature as to the actual event.
Originally posted by Regret
First, Usagi's Bible quote is one of those retranslated texts that takes liberty based in interpretation of meaning.The proper and direct translation does not read as this. The term "know" as used in a sexual manner is a much more entailed activity than just sex, it refers to an extremely intimate and thorough knowledge of a person, including sexual acts but in no way limited in scope to only sexual acts, even though the term does include sexual acts in all usage. Thus using the phrase "that we may have sex with them is correct, but is also an oversimplification.
Now, I think Fece was rather well thought out in his assessment at the beginning of this thread. The cities had much sin in them, but homosexuality was just one of many.
I do believe the story of the events surrounding them have been incorrectly recorded. I do not believe offering one's daughters to be raped is in any manner an acceptable course of action. So either Lot was not a very good man and thus the Angels did not even want to spend the night in his home or Lot was a good man and the offer of his daughters is an example of erroneous recording of events. Another example of probable error is the seeming condoning of Lot's daughters' rape of their father.
Given the probable errors and obvious contradictions in the story, the entire story of Lot must be interpretted with caution, imo. I believe much of the story is symbolic and metaphorical in nature, even the destruction should be viewed as probably exaggerated in nature as to the actual event.
The story is in no way metaphorical. It is very direct. You are making the same mistake as Feceman - taking minor words or phrases - and bending them to affect the obvious meaing(s) behind the scriptures.
Feceman has made no specific mention of *homosexuality* being a sin within this thread - in fact he has frankly stated(within other threads) that being gay - or having an attraction to men is not an unsinful and unnatural thought pattern - so long as one has not acted on it.
Again - this is another Legalistic way to interpret the scriptures. The point that is made(within the bible) - is that being tempted in itself is not sinful, however - when one harbors the temptation, be it physically or emotionally, it then becomes a sin. This is the rationale behind all sin, not just homosexuality.
I have no idea why you all even argue this. It is an extremely inaccurate and deceiving way to interpret God's word, and depressing to see two individuals who profess themselves to be devout Christians even arguing it. Let me just say - that I have no problem with being corrected(when I'm incorrect about something) but both you and Feceman are extremely wrong on this issue.
If you wish to continue with this debate, that is fine with me - however, as of right now, I feel as if there is no more for me to say. I may return however, at a later time - if I feel that I can add any further insight to the discussion.
Good day to you all. God bless.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimboIf you ever present something remotely insightful, I will be sure to let you know. Feceman's approach at the beginning of this thread was incredibly insightful, while your comments attempt to shove insight into a hole and stomp on it with ignorance as your mantle of pride. I have never seen you concede to the value of any one else's interpretations of scripture, I have only seen you state that your view is correct and everyone else is interpreting the wrong way. The pharisees were not a bad group of individuals, they were good men, many of which would not concede that their interpretations were wrong, and thus they rejected Christ. Now, it is always possible that one is in error, this is my stance, that it is possible that I am in error. Understanding a broad spectrum of possibility is the only method for avoiding the error of the proud pharisees that could not accept that their interpretation was not the correct one. I accept that other possibilities exist, but I have my belief as to which possibility is the most likely, and I follow that, it is possible that I am wrong, and I embrace that as a shield to hold me against the error of the pharisees.
The story is in no way metaphorical. It is very direct. You are making the same mistake as Feceman - taking minor words or phrases - and bending them to affect the obvious meaing(s) behind the scriptures.Feceman has made no specific mention of *homosexuality* being a sin within this thread - in fact he has frankly stated(within other threads) that being gay - or having an attraction to men is not an unsinful and unnatural thought pattern - so long as one has not acted on it.
Again - this is another Legalistic way to interpret the scriptures. The point that is made(within the bible) - is that being tempted in itself is not sinful, however - when one harbors the temptation, be it physically or emotionally, it then becomes a sin. This is the rationale behind all sin, not just homosexuality.
I have no idea why you all even argue this. It is an extremely inaccurate and deceiving way to interpret God's word, and depressing to see two individuals who profess themselves to be devout Christians even arguing it. Let me just say - that I have no problem with being corrected(when I'm incorrect about something) but both you and Feceman are extremely wrong on this issue.
If you wish to continue with this debate, that is fine with me - however, as of right now, I feel as if there is no more for me to say. I may return however, at a later time - if I feel that I can add any further insight to the discussion.
You believe that the Bible should not be interpreted in what you refer to as legalistic interpretation. The Bible should be approached from as many methods of interpretation as possible, the Bible does not state how it should be interpreted, it states that the spirit will aid a person in understanding, I believe this.
Various Christians bring the concept of spirit given understanding of scripture up at this point, so I am heading any attempts at this direction off now. Here is the issue, I do not believe you have the spirit with you. Thus, your interpretation is very likely wrong imo. Now, you will turn around and say the same thing about me, unless of course I agree with you. Given this, this argument to who "has the spirit" is a waste of time to bring up.
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah could be extremely literal, it could be an entirely fictional tale or it could be somewhere in between. All possibilities should be understood. Now, you claim it is entirely literal. So, if my neighbor gives me his daughters for sex, this is sanctioned by the Bible? If my daughter drugs me and then rapes me, is this then acceptable if I have no sons? No, these are both erroneous claims and are unBiblical. The only method for the Lot story to fit with the rest of the Bible is either error in the record or the stance that it is a moral story that may have fiction involved, or perhaps a combination of the two.
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
As you can see from the passage listed in Ezekiel, pride is the root of all sin. Like the city of Sodom(and Gomorrah), the people of Israel were extremely depraved during this time - and sinned in abundance(by engaging in sexual sin such as homosexuality, worshiping idols, performing sacrifices using humans...) However, their major sin was the*pride* that they had, when engaging in such behaviours. Their was no repentance, no remorse for these actions - they *pridefully* went about engaging in them(like the people of Sodom) - cursing their true Lord and Saviour while doing so.
See, now it gets muddied up. I also doubt that the use of "pride" in this context meant that Sodom took pride in their actions.
You have asked previously(in other threads), why God didn't destroy other cities - that engaged in similar sexual depravity? The answer to this is simple - no other city, during that time, was as *prideful* with their depravity as Sodom.
To state that the people of Sodom were guilty of just *pride*, and that being guilty of this *pride* in someway excuses the inherent sin of *homosexuality* -- is a legalistic, Pharisaical, and Satanic method of interpreting the scriptures.
This is the same type of debate style used by the Pharisees, when they asked questions of Jesus(which entailed taking scriptures out of context, or reciting one simple verse as the crux of their argument - to justify sinful behaviour). This is a very unbecoming debate style for you, particularly since you post many relevant and well thought out Christian ideas in other threads.
Furthermore, you'll notice that, in the original post, I did mention the following verse in Ezekiel.
If you feel the need to repost any other arguments that you feel I haven't adressed, please do so now. Again, my purpose is not to condemn - but it is to inform of the incorrectness of the position of homosexual *attraction* not being sinful.
P.S. I like the following post where you "bow out" of the debate in order to look like a gentleman. Really classy.
Regret: I think that, by Lot's offering his daughters to the crowd of rapetacular men, it was an act of sacrifice (in a way)--him allowing his virgin daughters to be despoiled for the safety of two strangers. It's analagous to Christ's crucifixion, in a way.
Originally posted by FeceManWhile this is possible, Biblically sacrifices to God are offered following the command to sacrifice. Sacrifices outside the commanded sacrifices met with correction Biblically, this leads to the conclusion that Lot's offering of his daughters cannot be seen as having literally occurred and being acceptable to God at the same time.
Regret: I think that, by Lot's offering his daughters to the crowd of rapetacular men, it was an act of sacrifice (in a way)--him allowing his virgin daughters to be despoiled for the safety of two strangers. It's analagous to Christ's crucifixion, in a way.
It is only a symbolic story. Lot got a lot from his daughters, and his sweet sweet wife was so full of compassion that she was turned into salt,..salt meaning goodness/preserved for ever more...ever more...It is Good lesson.
The lesson is that we should all be full of salt.......
Oh btw it was custom back then to gang bang people into the pecking order.....