Yes there were lies, they listed the HD-DVD drive and an extra wireless controller under the 360 in a lazy attempt to up their price, as if you NEED those things to play the system, it was done with obviously malicious intentions against MS. It was them "Spinning" facts in their favor by insinuating falsehoods to make them look for favorable.
Originally posted by BackFire
Yes there were lies, they listed the HD-DVD drive and an extra wireless controller under the 360 in a lazy attempt to up their price, as if you NEED those things to play the system, it was done with obviously malicious intentions against MS. It was them "Spinning" facts in their favor by insinuating falsehoods to make them look for favorable.
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He said it best:
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The whole point of the chart is to show how much extra you'd need to spend on your XBox 360 to get the same stuff as on the PS3... The purpose of the chart is to show that even though it has a high price point the PS3 is a much better deal and that they are offering at a lower price (compared to manufacturing cost) and taking a profit hit to make the system accessible. They aren't lieing or misleading anyone.
No, he didn't, he's simply wrong. There ARE lies and they blatantly are misleading people in there. By listing the wireless controller and the HD-DVD drive, two accessories that aren't necessary at all, as if they're necessary, they're causing the price point of MS on the chart to be much higher than it should be. This is undeniably misleading, because someone who's naive about the actual facts (which aren't in that chart) may see it and think that what they're saying is true and that you need to buy all that shit for the 360 in order to play it.
Also the fact that they chose to only show their price comparison for the core systems is also misleading. Because what they fail to mention is that the premium package of the 360 comes with the HDD and wireless controller. Obviously this is because it was harder to spin the information for the premium packages in favor of Sony.
The whole chart is done for the purpose of misleading people into thinking that in order to play the 360 you need all this shit when in reality you don't, and not even mentioning that you can get the premium package which includes the one thing you DO need AND a wireless controller for 400 dollars. Still $100 less than Sony's core system.
Originally posted by Draco69
Huh? I was referring to WrathfulDwarf.😐
Not you...
They didn't "badmouth" the other product. What did they give? The FACTUAL price of the Core system for the Xbox 360 in comparision to the Wii and the Core system for the PS3.
There were no insults.
There were no lies.
All of it were purely facts for the consumer to judge.
A example of "badmouthing" would be if Microsoft or Sony says "Nintendo sucks and people who play the game are geeks." Which Sony didn't do. Hell, they posted the correct pricing and advertisement for the Wii, didn't they? They were on the fact sheet as well. Were they "badmouthed" as well?
Nope...
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How stating the actual pricing for an actual system is "badmouthing" I'll never know....
No, you're wrong. The "fact sheet" listed optional components for the Xbox 360 and labeled them "required." The entire sheet was very misleading.
Who else finds it highly amusing that Draco is, once again, the only one here defending Sony's crap tactics?
Whatever issues you may have with the "fact" sheet, Draco, the basic gist of it is this: That a "playworthy" 360 costs more than a "playworthy" PS3. However, Sony chose to begin with the Core system of the 360, and then add "required" additions to it, which bumped the core 360 + add-ons to a higher price than a vanilla PS3. However, they misleadingly left out the fact that a premium 360 includes a few of those add-ons for less than the cost of buying them separately, and the remaining "required" additions are actually not required at all. This, in twisting the truth, and not presenting all the facts, constitutes a genuine lie.
However, all of this does not pertain to Sony's apparent issue with Lik-Sang, and if you wish to continue the discussion of Sony's now-infamous "fact" sheet, please feel free to do so in the proper thread, which is stickied at the top of the forum for your convenience.
As for Lik-Sang, Sony had no right to sue them out of business. Lik-Sang sold everything, Nintendo, Sony, and various computer systems, from Japan, and now people who didn't even care about Sony lose their supplier of, for example, high-quality laptops. How is that fair, or justified? It isn't, plain and simple. If Sony actually believed that there was some violation of law or possible safety hazard, the correct course of action would have been to contact Lik-Sang and have them pull the PSPs from their product list and attempt to refund the "hazardous/illegal" PSPs. Instead, Sony has commited what is, quite conceivably, a crime, by destroying a company and putting many, many people out of a job.
Originally posted by Draco69
Well of course not. That's not the purpose of an advertisement. You do know what advertisement is, right?😆
Honey, PLEASE. It's business. I don't know WHERE you got this idea that firms have to tell the whole truth (other than what the laws dictate for them to do) in order to badly reflect on them.
Why Sony all of sudden? Other firms have been doing it for decades. Microsoft included. Hell, they did the same damn thing with the PC years ago when going at it with Apple.
Is it because you're genuinely aghast at a company using advertisement that is appropiately misleading for the benefit of their company? Or is it because it's Sony?
Yeah...
It's the latter.
ALL firms use this tactic. Sony is not alone. Especially when it comes to Microsoft who is the BASTION when it comes to less than honesty business ethics....
Actually, Draco, you're wrong there. A case can definitely be made that that advert misleads the customer as to what needs to be spent precisely because of their use of the term 'require', which is a lie. Firms have certainly been sued and/or run afoul of consumer legislation that way before.
Chances are the ad is just too small fry to care about, though.
Originally posted by General KalieroAs for Lik-Sang, Sony had no right to sue them out of business.
Lik-Sang sold everything, Nintendo, Sony, and various computer systems, from Japan, and now people who didn't even care about Sony lose their supplier of, for example, high-quality laptops. How is that fair, or justified? It isn't, plain and simple. If Sony actually believed that there was some violation of law or possible safety hazard, the correct course of action would have been to contact Lik-Sang and have them pull the PSPs from their product list and attempt to refund the "hazardous/illegal" PSPs. Instead, Sony has commited what is, quite conceivably, a crime, by destroying a company and putting many, many people out of a job.
Actually, they do.
*Sigh* Swear to god, If I ever become President I will make it mandatory in all schools for a person to take economics courses before graduating. Hell, I'll make sure you can even get a driver's license without passing them...
Back to the subject.
I don't even think people realize what import taxes really are for or the fact that Lik-Sang somehow completely bypasses this aspect of importing.
Now with that in mind, consider the PS3 for a moment. Sony dropped the price of the PS3 $100 in Japan to better fit that market and it also means they will be making $100 less on each console sold in Japan. Now there are laws in place for global trading which helps protect companies which allows them to do this. One major method of this is import taxing where most of that money eventually ends up in the hands of the originating company. This means that even though Sony sold a $400 Playstation to someone in Europe, import taxes should make up the difference in domestic and foreign prices.
Lik-Sang bypasses this entire process. This means Sony has the potential to lose a TON of money because not only will they be selling a bunch of Playstations for $400 to the Japanese market, but they will also be selling them at $400 to a potentially huge import market.
This is the basis of what is known as arbitrage and the abuse of arbitrage is something that many countries are now making illegal.
Sony has every right to do what they did. I'm sure the other companies in the market are secretly thanking Sony for stepping up to do this.
Sony was also protecting themselves from consumer fraud allegations. By importing PSPs or PS3s into a country that has different electrical or region-coding standards than the system is meant for, they hold themselves at risk for lawsuits or very well much felony charges from the governments themselves. They would have been held liable for any and all damages.
And for information, Sony has MULTIPLE times asked Lik-Sang to follow their standards and the laws of Europe regarding importation. However they refused. Multiple times.
People, PLEASE understand the concept of importation of goods, the concept of arbitage and more importantlyt the concept of a producer's goods in relation to import taxes.
I REALLY don't think half the people even understand the content of the article.
Which is alright because the global economy, especially regarding foreign trade and finance is a VERY tricky business and not many people can understand it.
But we can understand this: A firm acts in its best interests. You don't have to understand arbitrage or import taxes or importation standards. You just have to know that a firm protects its profit interests. OBVIOUSLY Lik-Sang was acting against the economic interests of Sony.
To make it easy to understand:
I sell bananas.
I sell bananas in two countries.
I sell bananas in my own country for $10.
I sell bananas in France for $10 too. But the country adds a $5 import tax for every banana I sell. So I sell the banana for $16 in order to make a $1 profit, cover my profits and cover the cost of import tax.
Let's say a retailer named Lik-Sang sells my bananas in France...but they're selling bananas meant for the USA. They sell the imported bananas at $10 in France.
How much do I lose? How much do I earn?
This is PRECISELY what Lik-Sang has been doing for YEARS. They're selling imported products meant for a specific market in a specific country in order to take advantage of arbitrage and make a profit. More so than retailers selling the products legitimately. This is against the law. It's illegal and it not only hurts Sony's profits but it hurts the gaming industry as a whole.
When one sells a product they will ALWAYS be a tax of some kind. In a capitalist society, consumers "incur" the tax. It's an embedded price. Producers simply add the tax to the final price (I am NOT talking about sales tax; that's a completely different subject) and account the tax as debited to the asking government.
Lik-Sang bypasses that step. They reverse the economic model. They incur the tax on the producers. Like Sony.
If Lik-Sang sold my bananas for $10 in France, I would have to pay for the tax out my own pocket. My profits would go down. And logically, I would not be able to produce at my previous profit margin. Thus my production goes down. The supply of my bananas goes down. And the quantity supplied and sold for bananas goes down.
What happens then? Why the f*ck should a consumer care? Less goods = what? HIGHER prices. That's what it's ALL about.
Sony is protecting not only THEIR asses but YOUR asses as well. THINK. Use my simple example. The price of the PSP and PS3 is high enough already....what would happen if the price of these goods were to rise in Japan due to lower supply of PSPs/PS3s? They go UP.
They just lowered the friggin' price...and now not ONLY will the price go back up due to the laws of economics but they will ALSO incur costs of import taxes.
How would this affect the gaming industry. Prices will go UP in long-term. More so than they should.
Does everyone understand? Lik-Sang is not the victim. They're not ANYWHERE near the victim. Sony did us all a big whopping favor....
But back on topic, I had a look at this "controversial sheet" I can see where it's misleading, and where some would have problems, but I think it's fairly obvious that the console works alone and you don't need the wireless controller or drive alone. But companies do this stuff all the time. 😬 I guess they could have reworded it for the none gamer types out there, though. But they know parents will look at that if they are buying games. But in that case, wouldn't the Wii look more appealing?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
But back on topic, I had a look at this "controversial sheet" I can see where it's misleading, and where some would have problems, but I think it's fairly obvious that the console works alone and you don't need the wireless controller or drive alone. But companies do this stuff all the time. 😬 I guess they could have reworded it for the none gamer types out there, though. But they know parents will look at that if they are buying games. But in that case, wouldn't the Wii look more appealing?
But they lied!
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That's just despicable. I can't believe a corporation would post misleading information on an advertisement.
I mean, that's just wrong!
So many of our advertisements are completely truthful and give fair, balanced and completely accurate analysises of both the product they represent and the product they are competing against.
I mean, I saw a commercial that stated "We're better than Nokia!" from Motorola...BUT they followed up with a half-hour narration that explained in a unbiased standpoint on how that was not necessarily true. They also mentioned all the failings of their phones and how Nokia was better than Motorola in some ways better than others.
THAT'S how advertisements should be and have been for the last 50 years.
I am appalled!
This DEFINITELY is worth bitching about on Internet Forums!
Shame on you on Sony! Shame! Shame!
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Heeeeey....I didn't see this.....
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Really? PS3 and Sony mean the same...boy, are you clueless. So if I say PSP is the same as Sony...that's correct? No, for one....the PS3 and PSP are the products. Sony is the corporation that makes them. What's next? Windows means Xbox? Hahaha!
Yeah. This is called "deflection" A commonly used debating "tactic" used by immature individuals to spare them the expense of answering a particularly damaging question by the opposing antagonist.
In other words, you bluffing....
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AGAIN.
You mean you don't admit to spam the videogaming forums daily with some sort of negative article you obviously don't understand in order to mislead (or is it lie? I mean you're pathetically trying to instigate anti-Sony sentiment in KMC by posting misleading titles and misleading articles...so since you equate misleading information with lying does that mean you're a bold-faced liar...?) viewers on the forum.
Which is rather pathetic for a moderator who's JOB is to PREVENT spamming and trolling. Which you've done here. Consistantly....
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
That's NOT capitalism! That's greed...big difference.I don't know what Communist mumble jumble you're digging. But that's not what is consider good business.
I don't know what sort of ghetto school you just dropped out of.......no. Even the worst school systems in the worst ghettos taught this...
Capitalism IS Greed. Communism ISN'T Greed. Great Scott!
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How you managed to cross these two opposing wires is unbeknownst to me.
What is capitalism? Capitialism in a nutshell is to produce and gain as much as you possibly can. We want more, we make more, we buy more, we pay more, we have more. THAT's capitalism. If Capitalism WEREN'T greed....than we would reach a stagnant level of economic activity. We would have no inflation of prices. We would have no rise incomes. Because without greed, we'd eventually be satisfied right?
Good Lord....
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Communism....gah....communism is the complete utter opposite of greed. That's why Karl Marx hated capitalism. It was because it was GREED that ran the economic system. Not things like compassion or social concerns. Communism states that we will make as much as we need for everyone. Which isn't greed, now is it?
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Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Greed is what Enron did with their employees.
What did they do? They inflated their wages....
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What Enron did actually was they overstated their financial statements. They made it sound like they had more money than they had.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
That's greed...Capitalism is business making.
No. Just no. God! I don't think I can deal with this.....
Capitalism isn't "business-making". What the f*ck?
Capitalism is the economic system of free market activity.
ALL economic systems fall under the horrible entry of "business-making" including communism and feudalism and even trading....
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
You do not take legal action to put someone out of business like Sony is doing to Lik-sang.
Sure you do. If they're stealing your money and selling your products that you made for inflated prices that negatively affect your profit margins, you bet your ass you can sue the pants of them.
Oh and by the way. Nintendo's been doing it for years. Since the 90s. Since the days of Gameboy Color. So has Microsoft. Sony just finished them off.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
They have a right to file a lawsuit.
No. They don't. That's like saying the car dealer who sells your car for less than the market price and gets 100% of the profit and rips you off by putting costs on your credit deserves to file a lawsuit against you for getting him fired....
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Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
But no right to put someone out of business.
Yep. They sure do. Especially when that business is up to illegal activity.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
It's ethically wrong
It's ethically right to keep a company that illegally steals money from gaming corporations into their own pockets and spits in the face of the EU law in business...?
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Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
and bad terrible business.
How OLD are you? Seriously.
"bad terrible business"
My seven year old sister has better etiquitte.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Your excuses don't work me either.
That's because you don't understand it. Which isn't surprising since you think that Communism and greed are in bed with each other....
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Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
So call this a stalemate.
Honey, this isn't anywhere near a stalemate to the casual observer....
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I don't have side with anyone. I take my side and observed. Which is what you are not doing.
Oh please. Let's not kid ourselves here. You're lying...which is pretty damn hypocritical when you bash Sony for "lying".
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Everyone knows you're so anti-Sony to the point that you spam the forums with anti-Sony commentary, articles and posts and abuse your authority doing so.
I know it. You know it.
Unlike the others, I won't let bias allow me to look the other way.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
But back on topic, I had a look at this "controversial sheet" I can see where it's misleading, and where some would have problems, but I think it's fairly obvious that the console works alone and you don't need the wireless controller or drive alone. But companies do this stuff all the time. 😬 I guess they could have reworded it for the none gamer types out there, though. But they know parents will look at that if they are buying games. But in that case, wouldn't the Wii look more appealing?
What's more, if you download the browser before June of 2007, it's straight up free.
The Fish - Fri Oct 20 2006 21:41:52 Hong Kong TimeThe world should boycot sony what is all this crap??? You are penalising your own customers. We were willing to pay for your products. It was enough with the bloody region coding, but this!!! This is a joke! Not getting anywhere near a sony product again ....
Someone on Lik sang forum speaking his mind.
And Sony are greedy f*cking bastards btw (reply to that if you want to, but it won't change my opinion about 'em 😬 )
And Draco, calm down 😬
Originally posted by General Kaliero
Who else finds it highly amusing that Draco is, once again, the only one here defending Sony's crap tactics?
Not when he said that there were no lies in the price comparison chart.
And Draco, WD is not spamming, give that a rest. This is a legitimate thread to open and does not even remotely fit the definition of spamming. If Sony are getting a lot of negative attention righnt now then they have themselves to blame for it, and certainly the point that Sony execs themselves bought from this supplier are grounds for complaint. It may also be noted that if Sony were simply seeking to stop exports it would be one thihg. But they deliberately used a tactic of starting multiple lawsuits in multiple areas to bankrupt Lik-Sang with legal costs. This has done more than restrict imports- it has killed the company, and Sony did it intentionally.
WD is of the opinion that this is a bad thing for Sony to do. You disagree- fine. But don't call it spam just because you don't agree, that's really not on.