What good is Religion

Originally posted by don_roberts
Many wars are about religion many die though misguided religion e.g Jehad (a terrorist religion)

Perhaps hope is better found in other places?

Originally posted by don_roberts
Many wars are about religion many die though misguided religion e.g Jehad (a terrorist religion)

Religion is only as good as the people who represent it. If the people do bad things in the name of thier religion, then the religion is a bad one. If the people do good things in the name of thier religion, then the religion is a good one.

So far, all religions have shown to be good and bad in one way or another...except for Buddhism. So far, I have yet to hear of a human atrocity occuring out of Buddhism.

However, religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and most other deity-based religions have been responsible for both good and evil throughout history.

Originally posted by Great the Vraya
Religion is definitely a good thing.

How is it a good thing if it has caused wars ? 🤨

Religion is both good and evil. Like almost everything else.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How is it a good thing if it has caused wars ? 🤨

Religion is both good and evil. Like almost everything else.

Or maybe..jsut maybe..it is neither...which obviously is the more reasonable conclusion.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Or maybe..jsut maybe..it is neither...which obviously is the more reasonable conclusion.

Religion by itself is neutral, yes.

But religion, by itself does not exist. Religion is only "alive" when people still follow it. When a religion loses all of its followers, it becomes labelled "mythology". Soon Christianity and Islam will fall under that category, as this is the cycle with every past religion.

Religion is best described through the people that represent it. And since both good and bad people represent religion, the religion itself is good and bad

(or...in your terms, beneficial and malevolent)

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Religion by itself is neutral, yes.

But religion, by itself does not exist. Religion is only "alive" when people still follow it. When a religion loses all of its followers, it becomes labelled "mythology". Soon Christianity and Islam will fall under that category, as this is the cycle with every past religion.

Religion is best described through the people that represent it. And since both good and bad people represent religion, the religion itself is good and bad

(or...in your terms, beneficial and malevolent)

Originally posted by Nellinator
However, the Judaic faith (Christianity included) has an interesting lasting power. Christianity is not really shrinking either. Millions of people worldwide become Christian every year. I do not believe Christianity will ever die.

Well, it has already changed enormously since its conception, split along many fault lines. Christians can't even decide amongst themselves which of them are Christian and which aren't, arguing doctrinal differences cut many out.

So you cut away the groups most often accused of being Non-Christian - Catholics, Mormons, JW, Brethren, those people who fast/self flagellate...

And suddenly Christianity has shrunken considerably. Really the only times the above are classified as Christian by some is when they are needed to make up numbers.

And Christian numbers have been in decline - statistically, and in terms of ratio, less are converting or staying Christian. This can be attribute to aging populous, lower birth rates in "predominantly Christian nations", the increasing attractiveness of new age religions or agnosticism, science, Christian and religion in general controversy....

Christianity will probably hang on for a long time (just like there are still people who claim to be part of the Cult of Isis) but as a major religion? Probably not. Is Christianity as relevant today as it was when it was founded? I don't think so. No matter how many times a person says "The Bible is a book that is always up to date" it doesn't make it so. Christianity will decline like every religion, it will continue to fragment, and one day, 50 to a 1000 years from now it will be unrecognisable.

My argument would by that many Catholics are Christians but a lot aren't. The same is true in most 'Christian' divisions.
Christianity is admittedly dying in a lot of Western nations, but it is spreading very quickly in East Asia and Africa. In Nigeria alone over 3 million people have become Christians last year during a huge missionary trip. Cambodia is on pace to become a Christian nation. Christianity will survive as a major religion for a very long time.

"Christian nation" means that the nation will incorporate Chistian doctrine/mythology into their government.

The International Religious Freedoms Report (US State Dept) puts Christians in Cambodia at 2% of the populaiton in 2006. If that is considered significant, Christianity will indeed soon lose its title of "largest number of adherents"

Chirstianity will always be considered a major religion because of its historical influence.

Originally posted by Nellinator
My argument would by that many Catholics are Christians but a lot aren't. The same is true in most 'Christian' divisions.
Christianity is admittedly dying in a lot of Western nations, but it is spreading very quickly in East Asia and Africa. In Nigeria alone over 3 million people have become Christians last year during a huge missionary trip. Cambodia is on pace to become a Christian nation. Christianity will survive as a major religion for a very long time.

In those places you mentioned, where arguably much of the conversion is based upon the fact the people are living in poverty, famine, warfare, ignorance etc - do you imagine them all staying Christian when they realise that "God's love" isn't manifesting its self in a way that eases the terrible things they face? What are the statistics of those who are doing it only for the things the missionaries bring? Those who change back to traditional beliefs later? Those who will convert to Islam later still?

Arguably Islam is also growing in such areas, and one of its stengths is the fact there is many fundamentalists out there who trade on the discontent and impotant anger of these people and inspire them to become fundamental.

Because in the end I'd have serious concerns about the health of a religion that can't florish in places with high levels of education and with less in terms of physical suffering and has to rely upon converts who are desperate for any promise of a better life - being it through religion or politics. But still, if it makes them happier then it is doing some good.

And predominantly Christian is different from Christian nation. I don't seem any of those areas becoming Christian theocracies.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Because in the end I'd have serious concerns about the health of a religion that can't florish in places with high levels of education and with less in terms of physical suffering and has to rely upon converts who are desperate for any promise of a better life - being it through religion or politics.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
But still, if it makes them happier then it is doing some good.

Originally posted by Alliance
Unfortunately, ignorance does not solve problems. An easy passing is a passing all the same.

True, it is a very ancient view - "our lives are terrible, but we have the after life to look forward to" - I don't hold much hope for Christianity helping them fix their nations, overcoming the struggle ahead of them. But if it eases the pain a little until such a time I can forgive it.

However if the religion actually slows progress, the "don't question wher you are, just look forward to the next life" mentality - then it shouldn't be there.

Religon provides structure, purpose and meaning, but has its serious weaknesses. The modern system of education and philosophy has finally superceeded religion in its effectiveness, hence the decline of religions in cultures that have access to such philosophy.

True again, but education and philosophy seem much more sound and reliable. The people who are being converted as they lack this would certainly wonder about the validity of this religion if they had such facts, and wonder about its potential to really improve their lives.

Originally posted by Alliance
"Christian nation" means that the nation will incorporate Chistian doctrine/mythology into their government.

The International Religious Freedoms Report (US State Dept) puts Christians in Cambodia at 2% of the populaiton in 2006. If that is considered significant, Christianity will indeed soon lose its title of "largest number of adherents"

Chirstianity will always be considered a major religion because of its historical influence.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
In those places you mentioned, where arguably much of the conversion is based upon the fact the people are living in poverty, famine, warfare, ignorance etc - do you imagine them all staying Christian when they realise that "God's love" isn't manifesting its self in a way that eases the terrible things they face? What are the statistics of those who are doing it only for the things the missionaries bring? Those who change back to traditional beliefs later? Those who will convert to Islam later still?

Arguably Islam is also growing in such areas, and one of its stengths is the fact there is many fundamentalists out there who trade on the discontent and impotant anger of these people and inspire them to become fundamental.

Because in the end I'd have serious concerns about the health of a religion that can't florish in places with high levels of education and with less in terms of physical suffering and has to rely upon converts who are desperate for any promise of a better life - being it through religion or politics. But still, if it makes them happier then it is doing some good.

And predominantly Christian is different from Christian nation. I don't seem any of those areas becoming Christian theocracies.

Originally posted by Alliance
Religon provides structure, purpose and meaning, but has its serious weaknesses. The modern system of education and philosophy has finally superceeded religion in its effectiveness, hence the decline of religions in cultures that have access to such philosophy.

Unfortunately, ignorance does not solve problems. An easy passing is a passing all the same.

Originally posted by Nellinator
That is not necessarily a fair poll. If you had ever been to Cambodia you might understand why that poll came out that way.

There are a lot of people in Cambodia - but 2% of a lot if still 2%, just like 2% of 100 would still be 2%

Unless you are saying it was corruption and it is actually a higher % then the figures give credit for. But if that is the case it would be impossible to argue the figure might be higher either - it would be pointless. It could be a little as 2% or as much as 99%.

There were no benefits in that particular trip. A stadium where a man preached and 4 million people showed up for no other reason than to hear about Jesus. And then 3 million walk away having professed faith in Christ in a nation not overly supportive of Christianity because of benefits? No, a lot of people were transformed for the better.

I wasn't talking about that in particular - I am talking about conversion rates when missionaries turn up with food or building supplies. And it seems a remarkable feat of polling - did they actually ask 4 million people if they were now Christians? Or did the preacher just say "repeat after me - I take Jesus" - because that is just as much mob rule as actual profession of faith. I don't sing, but in the middle of a groud at a concert, when the performer points at the audience - I sing along with the rest. And to be honest I didn't know there were stadiums that could seat 4 million. Or was it over successive meetings?

Christianity will remain a major religion in Western nations for a long time and it can survive in intellectual nations when it is not represented and presented by ignorant zealots.

One must define ignorant zealot - because if it is someone like Bush American Christians helped elect him.

Happiness is not a tenant of the Christian faith. Happiness is fairly pointless, as is selfgratification. Christianity is about living a good life in belief of the saving power of Jesus.

Well I would wonder what the point of doing that would be if happiness wasn't the goal -

"Dear Mother - I am living a good life in accordance to the Bible. It doesn't make me happy, but happiness is fairly pointless. Thank goodness I found Christianity after my brush with Nihilism. Love Boris.

PS - wait a minute!"

Because a lot of Christian advocates trade on that - joy, happiness, all the attractive emotions Christian brings. Somehow I doubt it would lasted nearly as long if preachers got up and said "happiness - pointless."

Education may help people, but it can fulfill the spiritual needs of humans. Religion will always exist because of the spirituality of mankind.

A person doesn't need a religion to be spiritual. In fact God gets in the way of true spirituality.

Originally posted by Nellinator
That is not necessarily a fair poll. If you had ever been to Cambodia you might understand why that poll came out that way.

I have not been to Cambodia, however, the US State Department has much more credibility than "Nellinator" does. Instead of simply dismissing it as ignorant (which it clearly is not), why don't you explain its problems. I certainly would give that statistic (it was not a poll) much more credibilty than a "If you were smart like me you might understand."

Originally posted by Nellinator
Education may help people, but it can fulfill the spiritual needs of humans. Religion will always exist because of the spirituality of mankind.

I find both of those statements incorrect. Education exposes you to competing ideas and philosophies. Philosopy can fulfill the spiritual needs of humans. Combinations of philosophies are much better than religions because they are both personal and all encompassing.

Spirituality does not equal religion. Spirituality is a characteristic and a feeling. Religion is an indocrinated system of beliefs centered around supernatural occourances. They may be correlated, but they are far from identical concepts.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
There are a lot of people in Cambodia - but 2% of a lot if still 2%, just like 2% of 100 would still be 2%

Unless you are saying it was corruption and it is actually a higher % then the figures give credit for. But if that is the case it would be impossible to argue the figure might be higher either - it would be pointless. It could be a little as 2% or as much as 99%.

I wasn't talking about that in particular - I am talking about conversion rates when missionaries turn up with food or building supplies. And it seems a remarkable feat of polling - did they actually ask 4 million people if they were now Christians? Or did the preacher just say "repeat after me - I take Jesus" - because that is just as much mob rule as actual profession of faith. I don't sing, but in the middle of a groud at a concert, when the performer points at the audience - I sing along with the rest. And to be honest I didn't know there were stadiums that could seat 4 million. Or was it over successive meetings?

One must define ignorant zealot - because if it is someone like Bush American Christians helped elect him.

Well I would wonder what the point of doing that would be if happiness wasn't the goal -

"Dear Mother - I am living a good life in accordance to the Bible. It doesn't make me happy, but happiness is fairly pointless. Thank goodness I found Christianity after my brush with Nihilism. Love Boris.

PS - wait a minute!"

Because a lot of Christian advocates trade on that - joy, happiness, all the attractive emotions Christian brings. Somehow I doubt it would lasted nearly as long if preachers got up and said "happiness - pointless."

A person doesn't need a religion to be spiritual. In fact God gets in the way of true spirituality.

Stadium may have been misleading... Its more of stage in the middle of a massive field, but whatever.
Actually I believe that it was a two day thing at three different cities with an average of 1 million at each. These pictures will hopefully give you an idea of the magnitude of the turnout. Each one is from a different city visited. The response is huge. Everyone who entered was given a card that was anonymously filled out and 3 million came back with 'decisions for Christ'.

Ignorant zealots a lot of hypocritical door to door goers who tell you that you are going to hell while they disobey God themselves.

Happiness is not our goal. Joy, contentment, peace, and happiness do not equate. The first three are necessary in Christian life however. Happiness is good, but not our goal because selfishness is the cause of many bad things in the world.

Philosophy does not replace our spirituality. Nor does it fulfill it. It avoids, rationalizes and suffucates it. Spirituality cannot be answered by man. Although not all spirituality comes from God, rational, logic, and philosophy are not replacement for it.

Originally posted by Nellinator
However, the Judaic faith (Christianity included) has an interesting lasting power. Christianity is not really shrinking either. Millions of people worldwide become Christian every year. I do not believe Christianity will ever die.

Christianity has lasted two thousand years.

Greek Mythology lasted much longer, and it died out as a religion and converted to pure mythology.

Sadly, in a few centuries from now, this may very well be the case with Christianity. Christianity may gain millions each year, but it also loses millions each year.

Christianity is ever-changing...it evolves with us. You should already know the History of the Churches, both Catholic and Protestant...and you should already know that the Bible has been editted, re-translated, and re-editted numerous times throughout history.

If Christianity does not die out as a religion, it will evolve into a new one.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Spirituality cannot be answered by man. Although not all spirituality comes from God, rational, logic, and philosophy are not replacement for it.

Philosophers throughout history have proven to be more Peaceful than religious figures over all.

I see less anger and hatred in Buddhists than in Christians. Nell, can you please answer this qualm? Why is it that Hatred, Bigotry, and Hypocrisy is so common among the Christian realms? Especially pertaining to Evangelism ?

You know this is true....where has the Love gone ?

There are 30,000 children dying every day, and the Churches are going to focus on Gay Marriage and Abortion, issues that ultamately do not matter in comparison to Global War, Poverty, Starvation, and the like ?

Why not address actual Human and Animal suffering instead of waste time on superficial causes?

According to Time Magazine, 50% of American Citizens who happen to be some form of Christian Faith are anticipating the End of the World, and truly beleive that the Universe is 6000 years old.....what kind of progress can ever stem from such foolishness? You tell me Nell.....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[b]Philosophers throughout history have proven to be more Peaceful than religious figures over all.

I see less anger and hatred in Buddhists than in Christians. Nell, can you please answer this qualm? Why is it that Hatred, Bigotry, and Hypocrisy is so common among the Christian realms? Especially pertaining to Evangelism ?

You know this is true....where has the Love gone ?

There are 30,000 children dying every day, and the Churches are going to focus on Gay Marriage and Abortion, issues that ultamately do not matter in comparison to Global War, Poverty, Starvation, and the like ?

Why not address actual Human and Animal suffering instead of waste time on superficial causes?

According to Time Magazine, 50% of American Citizens who happen to be some form of Christian Faith are anticipating the End of the World, and truly beleive that the Universe is 6000 years old.....what kind of progress can ever stem from such foolishness? You tell me Nell..... [/B]