What good is Religion

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[b]Philosophers throughout history have proven to be more Peaceful than religious figures over all.

I see less anger and hatred in Buddhists than in Christians. Nell, can you please answer this qualm? Why is it that Hatred, Bigotry, and Hypocrisy is so common among the Christian realms? Especially pertaining to Evangelism ?

You know this is true....where has the Love gone ?

There are 30,000 children dying every day, and the Churches are going to focus on Gay Marriage and Abortion, issues that ultamately do not matter in comparison to Global War, Poverty, Starvation, and the like ?

Why not address actual Human and Animal suffering instead of waste time on superficial causes?

According to Time Magazine, 50% of American Citizens who happen to be some form of Christian Faith are anticipating the End of the World, and truly beleive that the Universe is 6000 years old.....what kind of progress can ever stem from such foolishness? You tell me Nell..... [/B]

You likely see less anger in Buddhists for three reasons:
1) They have a less strict moral code than Christians and therefore are not as upset by things they do not classify as sin or bad karma.
2) Buddhists do not generally feel responsible for the actions of others. Christians are called to tell people the truth and lead them away from evil.
3) Many Christians are hypocrits. It is the largest problem facing the church. God knows it. Just look at people such as you and Shaky for example. Both of you were once Christians, but were/are pushed away by hypocrisy. Evangelism is what is happening in Africa and other places around the world. In America, evangelism has deteriorated into threatening and hate speeches. Read the NT and you will see that Jesus spent a lot of his time attacking hypocrits. Jesus knew how terrible hypocrisy can be and I think it was one of the things he came to put right. And yet so many Christians fail to realize how much Jesus himself would hate their hypocrisy...

The love is there, it is just becoming harder to find because too many people are self-righteous.

To be fair Christian organizations do a great deal in these areas, and it is commendable, however, too many Christians fail to help those in their own communities. The homeless, drug addicts, etc. Its just more hypocrisy and apathy. I hate it and it is wrong. It is an error amongst the people, not with God.

However, I believe that abortion is a major issue because abortion has killed more people than Hitler did within the last decade... But, this is not the place to argue about that.

I am anticipating the end of the world myself. I do not think that it slows progress. I have to disagree with you on this point. This belief should not affect how I live my life as God has called us to a life of love. I do not sit around or let it affect how I go about my daily business.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I am saying that the number is incorrect. A lot more are. Cambodian people generally and culturally identify themselves as Buddhist. There is also a lingering fear of being identified as Christian after the Khmer Rouge. Christianity is very prevalent in Cambodia and is especially common among the unpolled younger population of children and teenagers which will mean a higher dominance in the future. Also there are many Buddhist monks in Cambodia that are Christian that cannot claim to be Christian because they risk being thrown out of home and losing what could be their only chance for an education.

Which are all factors that statisticians take into account when making statistics. The fact seems to remain that officially there is not a huge percentage of Christians - and while it sounds like you have been there I can't help but wonder how long it was that enabled you to make such a grand number up if people are hiding the true faith. Because it sounds a lot like evangelical pamphlets I have seen that claim figures that are... well, not fully grounded in reality.

One I saw in Australia recently had to do with a vote in Parliament at the moment over therapeutic cloning (which is going well) - it claimed 7 out of 10 Australians were against it. What they failed to point out that that figure was based on a poll. Taken in a Church. And allowed those being polled to "how do your friends view it?" The among wrong with that isn't funny. So have you questioned millions of Cambodians to back up your claim?

Stadium may have been misleading... Its more of stage in the middle of a massive field, but whatever.

Ok.

Actually I believe that it was a two day thing at three different cities with an average of 1 million at each. These pictures will hopefully give you an idea of the magnitude of the turnout. Each one is from a different city visited. The response is huge. Everyone who entered was given a card that was anonymously filled out and 3 million came back with 'decisions for Christ'.

In Australia, say you want to convert to Catholicism, or some other Christian church. For Adults there is, quite seriously, a four month preparation process. Once a week, for almost those four months, people go to a nightly meeting, talk, learn discuss - to make sure the religion is right for them. Why?, I once asked. Apparently in this day and age people jump into things and then decide it isn't right for them. As such it is done to give people a chance to come to terms.

There are some who claim those "flashes" that make them see Christianity is right. But there are others who are testing the waters, those doing it for family/marriage reasons, those people who feel they need faith, those people who think they are in the wrong faith. And apparently it is a lot more successful - converts remain converts. A bunch of people go and see a guy in a field and after a couple of hours are converted? I wonder....

Ignorant zealots a lot of hypocritical door to door goers who tell you that you are going to hell while they disobey God themselves.

Most Christians then (except the door to door bit.)

Happiness is not our goal. Joy, contentment, peace, and happiness do not equate. The first three are necessary in Christian life however. Happiness is good, but not our goal because selfishness is the cause of many bad things in the world.

I'll remember that the next time I visit a Buddhist temple and hear them talking about happiness being what we strive for. Because those happiness seeking Buddhists, well, they are monsters.

And to be honest, I can't imagine joy without happiness, contentment without happiness is an impotent, bland thing, and peace can't prosper by itself - without something to strive for things stagnant. I think happiness is something we strive for, and it is right we do so, as without happiness there is far less reason to live then there is if there is no God. Because joy, peace, contentment and happiness exist without God, and are not dependant on him.

Philosophy does not replace our spirituality. Nor does it fulfill it. It avoids, rationalizes and suffucates it. Spirituality cannot be answered by man. Although not all spirituality comes from God, rational, logic, and philosophy are not replacement for it.

I know plenty of people who would disagree, and who live full, happy, joyful, content lives.

The reality is people don't need God, any gods, in this world to be happy. They don't need them to be successful. They don't need them to be content. However some people find it easier to achieve such things believing in a deity. Good for them. But I don't believe humanity is in a position that fundamentally requires religion.

Do animals have spiritual needs? No. Do humans? We have created a need for ourselves, one of the aspects of our social evolution. And there are many ways to fulfill it. Or ignore it - since plenty don't believe in it. Philosophy is a valid alternative.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Philosophers tend to less violent because they spend too much time thinking and not enough time doing. Philosophers have come up with many stupid ideas that have lead to terrible things.

You likely see less anger in Buddhists for three reasons:
1) They have a less strict moral code than Christians and therefore are not as upset by things they do not classify as sin or bad karma.
2) Buddhists do not generally feel responsible for the actions of others. Christians are called to tell people the truth and lead them away from evil.
3) Many Christians are hypocrits. It is the largest problem facing the church. God knows it. Just look at people such as you and Shaky for example. Both of you were once Christians, but were/are pushed away by hypocrisy. Evangelism is what is happening in Africa and other places around the world. In America, evangelism has deteriorated into threatening and hate speeches. Read the NT and you will see that Jesus spent a lot of his time attacking hypocrits. Jesus knew how terrible hypocrisy can be and I think it was one of the things he came to put right. And yet so many Christians fail to realize how much Jesus himself would hate their hypocrisy...

The love is there, it is just becoming harder to find because too many people are self-righteous.

To be fair Christian organizations do a great deal in these areas, and it is commendable, however, too many Christians fail to help those in their own communities. The homeless, drug addicts, etc. Its just more hypocrisy and apathy. I hate it and it is wrong. It is an error amongst the people, not with God.

However, I believe that abortion is a major issue because abortion has killed more people than Hitler did within the last decade... But, this is not the place to argue about that.

I am anticipating the end of the world myself. I do not think that it slows progress. I have to disagree with you on this point. This belief should not affect how I live my life as God has called us to a life of love. I do not sit around or let it affect how I go about my daily business.

I agree with a lot of what you say Nellinator. Some of the hypocrisy that goes on(and to be quite honest - I am guilty of some myself) I think comes from anger, hurt, rejection - and quite frankly, a feeling that some Christians(and non-Christians) have which could be equated to a sincere longing for God or "Love" within their lives. Not just to have a "feeling" of God in their lives per say - But perhaps..some actually long to be with God more in an intimate sense..like being in a family - with a loving father and mother. I think many see themselves as stuck - in a world which at times is filled with soo much evil, and of many who hate them - as well as openly and proudly admonish this love they have for God.(I'm certain there's quite a few on this forum who are typical examples of this behaviour)

Consequently - those not mature in their faith, immediately lash out at those who hurt them, or to those they believe are attacking God. They believe they are truly helping God by doing this, but as we can see within this forum - as well as out in the real world, sometimes such actions have an adverse effect. Jesus did indeed say it best in using the simple phrase "They'll know us by our love." Something myself and other Christians within this world need to live by.

Still, I think other people project feelings they may have about themselves upon others - be they positive or negative. I do think many of these people truly love God as well - and want to help him spread his word, but unfortunately do not know how to do it. Some of this might have to do with a feeling of inadequacy in the abilities that God has given them, some of it might have to do with the way they were raised.(many come from broken homes, or environments where they have not been taught how to properly communicate with others in a loving but non-judgemental manner.)

And lastly - some I feel, have extreme anger over the condition of the world, and at the current individual who the bible appropriately titles the "God of this Age." I think they are truly angry with this world's condition - the suffering, the hardship, and the evil present within it - and whenever they see evil commited, they feel compelled to lash out against it. They see it as a direct assualt on their loving God, who they consider their "friend" and who they know the turth about - and rather than think things through - they act swiftly(however sometimes ineptly) to proclaim his innocence and maintain his good name.

This is not to say that there are others who fall in different categories out there - but I can only lable the things that I've witnessed, and perhaps have experienced myself. Ultimately all individuals do have to be responsible for themselves at some point, regardless of their circumstances or intentions, I definitely don't deny this -- but at times, I can understand how some of the hypocrisy manifests itself in its initial stages.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Which are all factors that statisticians take into account when making statistics. The fact seems to remain that officially there is not a huge percentage of Christians - and while it sounds like you have been there I can't help but wonder how long it was that enabled you to make such a grand number up if people are hiding the true faith. Because it sounds a lot like evangelical pamphlets I have seen that claim figures that are... well, not fully grounded in reality.

One I saw in Australia recently had to do with a vote in Parliament at the moment over therapeutic cloning (which is going well) - it claimed 7 out of 10 Australians were against it. What they failed to point out that that figure was based on a poll. Taken in a Church. And allowed those being polled to "how do your friends view it?" The among wrong with that isn't funny. So have you questioned millions of Cambodians to back up your claim?

Ok.

In Australia, say you want to convert to Catholicism, or some other Christian church. For Adults there is, quite seriously, a four month preparation process. Once a week, for almost those four months, people go to a nightly meeting, talk, learn discuss - to make sure the religion is right for them. Why?, I once asked. Apparently in this day and age people jump into things and then decide it isn't right for them. As such it is done to give people a chance to come to terms.

There are some who claim those "flashes" that make them see Christianity is right. But there are others who are testing the waters, those doing it for family/marriage reasons, those people who feel they need faith, those people who think they are in the wrong faith. And apparently it is a lot more successful - converts remain converts. A bunch of people go and see a guy in a field and after a couple of hours are converted? I wonder....

Most Christians then (except the door to door bit.)

I'll remember that the next time I visit a Buddhist temple and hear them talking about happiness being what we strive for. Because those happiness seeking Buddhists, well, they are monsters.

And to be honest, I can't imagine joy without happiness, contentment without happiness is an impotent, bland thing, and peace can't prosper by itself - without something to strive for things stagnant. I think happiness is something we strive for, and it is right we do so, as without happiness there is far less reason to live then there is if there is no God. Because joy, peace, contentment and happiness exist without God, and are not dependant on him.

I know plenty of people who would disagree, and who live full, happy, joyful, content lives.

The reality is people don't need God, any gods, in this world to be happy. They don't need them to be successful. They don't need them to be content. However some people find it easier to achieve such things believing in a deity. Good for them. But I don't believe humanity is in a position that fundamentally requires religion.

Do animals have spiritual needs? No. Do humans? We have created a need for ourselves, one of the aspects of our social evolution. And there are many ways to fulfill it. Or ignore it - since plenty don't believe in it. Philosophy is a valid alternative.

No, but the 'crusades' as they are called provide the groundworks. It is followed up by the building of churches, schools, hospitals, and aid. These people are taught about Christ. If they choose or become interested the existing church is there to meet their spiritual needs and physical (as best as possible). That is the way evangelism is supposed to work (not this horrible threatening idiocy present within the Western world).

Buddhists are not monsters. I never claimed such. Shaky for instance is a very reasonable person. I enjoy him. I have many Buddhist friends. However, I many of my Buddhist friends goals in life to very self centered. It is a theme I find prevalent (but not really dominant) amongst Buddhists. That said, I think a lot of Christians are self centered as well, so...

Originally posted by Nellinator
Millions? No, Cambodia does not have a large population. For the people in Phnom Penh and Battambang I can definitely see a conservative estimate being around 10% Christian. Comparing that to the 1% that I would have said 10 years ago and the increasing rate of conversion, I can confidently say that Cambodia is progressing towards becoming a Christian nation.

And I still point out statisticians take variables into consideration and at this point in time your claim they are progressing towards becoming a predominantly Christian nature is based upon conjecture which is no supported by the statistics.

Seems like a fair poll...

How exactly? Actual professional polling done by government and researchers showed quite quite different, the pamphlet poll misconstrued the results to give the impression a greater number are against the laws currently passing through Parliament then actually are. Such a poll is not considered factual, nor well done (since it does not provide the views of many, drawing solely from a Church community), even more so as they allowed people to make up results - "yes, my friends are against it."

No, but the 'crusades' as they are called provide the groundworks. It is followed up by the building of churches, schools, hospitals, and aid. These people are taught about Christ. If they choose or become interested the existing church is there to meet their spiritual needs and physical (as best as possible). That is the way evangelism is supposed to work (not this horrible threatening idiocy present within the Western world).

So, there is physical benefits that follows - aid, schools, hospitals?

Buddhists are not monsters. I never claimed such. Shaky for instance is a very reasonable person. I enjoy him. I have many Buddhist friends. However, I many of my Buddhist friends goals in life to very self centered. It is a theme I find prevalent (but not really dominant) amongst Buddhists. That said, I think a lot of Christians are self centered as well, so...

And the problem with that is? And from my experience with Buddhist it is very unobtrusive self centredness. If the cost of being happy in life is being a little introverted then it is a good trade - if more people looked at themselves a bit more the world would be a better place. How many Christians, or Muslims or the like have I met who think "I don't need to look at myself, I've got Jesus, that is a sign I am good" - the answer is far to many.

It may be conjecture. But you would have to witness it to believe it I guess. I wonder what that same poll said was the percentage of Buddhists?

I was joking. The poll was very biased and actually pretty retarded from what you told me.

I see where you are trying to go with this. Yes, physical aid follows sometimes. However, the hospitals and schools are open to all, not just the converts.

Yes, they are unobtrusive, however, I find that Buddhism is too apathic most of the time. Also, I agree with you in many ways on the need to improve ourselves before we look at others.
Jesus once said to remove the plank from your own eye first before removing the speck from your friend's.

Originally posted by Nellinator
The love is there, it is just becoming harder to find because too many people are self-righteous.

To be fair Christian organizations do a great deal in these areas, and it is commendable, however, too many Christians fail to help those in their own communities. The homeless, drug addicts, etc. Its just more hypocrisy and apathy. I hate it and it is wrong. It is an error amongst the people, not with God.

The problem is that people dont focus on the love. Read the good stuff, and axe the rest. Christian philosophy could be a great system, but the institution prevents that from happening.

I help more in my community than most Christians I know do. Yet, every time a political issue rolls around, I have to sit and listen to how immoral and dangerous I am because I don't believe in their god, even though they don't believe in anyone elses. They feel apt to force their opinons onto me, yet I fight for the basic right for them to voice their opinions. Its hypocrisay on the highest leve and it NEEDS to stop. Christianity needs to stob being a business and a church. It needs to become a movement again, which is what I interpret Christ wanted it to be.

On a mroe sour note, if your God is all powerful, then he has predestined these Christians to do this. It is his fault. How can you be so sure that God hasn't had an effect, even giving you the undefendable assumption that your God exists in the first place?

Most people use religion as a crutch. They are weak insecure people that are afraid to take responsibilities for their own actions and thoughts blaming them on a god. Many religions play "Pass the buck." It's gods fault, the devils, the sinful lives of another, but oh, not me.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Most people use religion as a crutch. They are weak insecure people that are afraid to take responsibilities for their own actions and thoughts blaming them on a god. Many religions play "Pass the buck." It's gods fault, the devils, the sinful lives of another, but oh, not me.

👆

Originally posted by debbiejo
Most people use religion as a crutch. They are weak insecure people that are afraid to take responsibilities for their own actions and thoughts blaming them on a god. Many religions play "Pass the buck." It's gods fault, the devils, the sinful lives of another, but oh, not me.

😆 Apparently you don't examine the role your faith plays in your life.

Sure I do. My faith gives me these things: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, goodness, and self-control. Self-control being the most relevant to our argument.

I recieve all those things from elswhere. However, I recieve them from myself. I don't do it to please anyone, I do it because I beleive it makes me a better person. You use these items as a crutch to satisfy your selfish desire to go to Heavan. I do these things because I think they are morally right.

Not to mention I pursue intelligence and knowledge, something MOST relevant to our argument.

Intelligence and knowledge. Something that I possess, have spent most of life attaining, and continue to attain. Selfish desire to go to Heaven? Not so, speak for someone else please. I would follow God even if it lead to the same fate as unbelief.

Well apparently you don't posess enough, since you so far seem unable to use logic to back up your arguments.

Not so huh? Why do you want to go to heavan? Is it just a convience that you get everlasting bliss?

So you do what you're told. Thats not very intelligent of you is it.

Originally posted by Alliance
Well apparently you don't posess enough, since you so far seem unable to use logic to back up your arguments.

Not so huh? Why do you want to go to heavan? Is it just a convience that you get everlasting bliss?

So you do what you're told. Thats not very intelligent of you is it.

Yes it is a convience. Hoping to see you there though.

Sure it is, if it makes me do good and help others.

I have been pointing it out all fricking night. If you've missed it, you need ot work on your reading skills.

Convineince my arse. If you do actions out of fear; your selfish desire to live forever and be "happy." If there is a god and he's a good god, I'
ll see you there. If hes not a good god and can't judge based on purpose in this world, I'd rather suffer eternally than help a bastard.

But none of it matters anyway, since the chance of your god being a real god is basically 0.

Originally posted by Alliance
I have been pointing it out all fricking night. If you've missed it, you need ot work on your reading skills.

Convineince my arse. If you do actions out of fear; your selfish desire to live forever and be "happy." If there is a god and he's a good god, I'
ll see you there. If hes not a good god and can't judge based on purpose in this world, I'd rather suffer eternally than help a bastard.

But none of it matters anyway, since the chance of your god being a real god is basically 0.

Once again, a nice convience.

Good deeds matter whether God is real or not. Proof my God being real, not bad, considering it can't be proven otherwise.

No. Good is a point of view. Its a self-perception.

Nothing you mentioned proves god, let alone your god in the slightest.