If Jesus is Love....

Started by Lord Urizen5 pages
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Indeed.

Glad we agree on something

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Stating that "just because something cannot be proven does not mean it doesn't exist" does not constitute evidence. Your beliefs are not evidenced. And attempting to use them to denounce evidenced research is inadequate. You attempt to disregard research because of use of an animal model for experiments, yet you have no research, no model, no experiments. Highly hypocritical.

My beleifs.....I am drawing a hypothetical conclusion that if Jesus is Love, then we are all part of Jesus....what evidense do you expect anyone to find ? You DO remember that you are in the RELIGION forum, right ? Evidense and Proof is almost RARE in these forums lol

I see nothing wrong with arguing philosophy in a religion forum, the same way you insist on arguing science in the religion forum. Im sad that you see it that way.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's a nice, but unsubstantiated belief. And a strawman argument, I never said it was purely physical. Simply that evidence at this time indicates a physical basis.

Take your own advice then....

All you have is the physical....you have no proof or disproof of the mental / emotional / spiritual existance or description of Love as a whole. Therefore, no matter how much science jumbo you throw my way, you could never truly disprove my assertion, the same way I cannot disprove yours. ❌

Sorry.....

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Very nice strawmanning indeed, and further proof of the manner in which you "debate". The context was clearly with regard to when one forms an argument or explanation of phenomena based purely on personal belief. The edicts of Buddha with regard to how one should strive to live, independent thought and opinion, and works of literary fiction being completely irrelevant to the point I made.

You just said that an argument with no factual basis to support it is WORTHLESS...you do REALIZE that 90% of the religion forum is NOT based on FACT but on beleif and personal philosophy right ?

By your own grammatically accurate statement, you also argue that what the Buddha taught is worthless, because Buddha had no factual basis behind his teachings....just his experience and bias.

It is highly relevant in this case. You are demeaning this entire THREAD worthless because PHYSICAL PROOF cannot be supplied for a philosophical take on the possibility of the mental/spiritual existance of Love.

You are foolish in this case, and you cannot see that....why not ?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I.e. god of gaps. An incomplete understanding does not imply that the premise is incorrect, nor does it support an intangible explanation. Secondly what flaws? Your bizarre questions?

I agree with your first statement...so what? There will never be "proof" that you or anyone else can recognize for my arguments...since when does the religion forum require proof for beleif ?

As for what flaws ?...go back and read...I answered every argument thrown at me.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's nice, Cujo. Especially considering how avidly you refuse to accept the ideas of others. This thread being exemplary. You're more than welcome to your beliefs and opinions, and to express them. But while everyone is entitled to their own opinions, they aren't entitled to their own facts.

1) When have I ever closed off on someone else's point of view. Disagreeing with someone does not constitute my "refusal" to see things from another perspective. What a horrible accusation, I am actually offended by that 🙁

2) The only FACTS I have presented were those on animal behavior. As for the theory or argument on Jesus Christ and Love, no facts are possible. It is all logic, philosophy, and religion.....the last 2 things you seem to be INTOLERANT of

Re: Re: Re: Re: If Jesus is Love....

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Oh yes -- tis a very thought provoking response indeed. Odd, how one can't recall you using this same definitional rationale in the proceeding post --

Go on......

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
So I guess if one defines Jesus as being "love", and then uses this very same "definition" to synonomously define what makes one a Christian, any intelligent individual can certainly see that no sort of definition of what love is -- has been provided in the above referenced quote, particularly when given additional veritable "definitions" of what love isn't in previous quotes.(unless of course you believe that you have given us no veritable definitions at all, which would then lead me to believe that you have alluded that you are be a liar.)

Hmm...where do I begin on this.....Just because I refer to Jesus does not mean I have to refer to the Bible as my only reference.

Jesus, like Buddha is a historical figure, and I, as any person, have the right to my own intepretation of him, as you do.

Limitting myself to the Bible, then YES, I could only argue that If Jesus is Love, then only Christians are loving.....like you claim.

However, I am not limitting myself to the Bible. The Bible does not OWN Jesus, so I may refer to him as I wish.

It is my conclusion that if Jesus is truly the embodyment of Love, then everyone who LOVES is part of Christ. Regardless of whether or not they beleive in him... ✅

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
[BHahahaha.... Hahahahaha. So the biblical defintion of love means "sh*t" to you? How are you still not defining what love is? If your interpretation of love is not dependant upon the bible, then you are still giving us your "definition" of what you believe love is, by defining what it is not. [/B]

Yes. It means sh*t to me, because I am not using the Bible in my conclusion.

I am not defining what Love is, because I beleive that as limitted human beings, we can EXPLAIN LOVE, but not define it.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
[BAnd yet again, this "definition" is followed by another "definition" of the "undefinable" love which you've so graciously introduced us to -- [/B]

An explanation...a description...not a definition ❌

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
[BOh I don't need to back it up, nothing that you have argued has a single grain of truth to it. Not a single functional or logical component. With each post you only continue to demonstrate this, by proceeding to give us "defintions" to what you consider to be "undefinable." [/B]

Read the above.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
[BLove can indeed be defined Urizon, however, it's just that you and I don't possess the necessary intellect or ability to completely comprehend it in all of its glory and splendor. [/B]

If you and I do not possess the intellect necessary to define Love, then no....we cannot define it. That was my stance before, and is still my stance now.

Can you define hate ?

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
I made no such claim. I merely stated that Christian love, as biblically defined and as personified in Christ, is much different than the worldly version of love which you have miserably failed in relating it to. Does taking things out of context and purposely trying to confuse and confuddle others with warped logic come easy to you?

I understand the Bible's stance, but I care not. I already told you I was not limitting myself to the Biblical definition of Love, because I beleive that no human source can truly define Love.

If anything, Love can best be explained through collective means. Since we ALL individualize what we call Love, no one definition could ever suffice.

Does my logic still appear "warped" to you, or are your brains still scrambled by scripture ?

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
[BHmmm...but providing us with your own self-contradicting, self proclaimed "factual" opinions is proof? You are indeed correct about one thing Urizon, I do limit my interaction and understanding when confronted with stupidity. Now please excuse me for a moment as I get back to my laughter...HaHaHaHaHa... [/B]

And then you get mad when someone laughs at your religion ? 😬

Especially when the Bible consists of no factual basis? Ay carajo, the fkn hypocrisy !

I never stated my assertion of Christ as fact. Get over it ❌

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If Jesus is Love....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Go on......

If thou insists -- but let us first define what a "definition" is, so as not to further confound ourselves and others with our own varied, limited and personal interpretations of the terminology being used.


WordNet

definition

n 1: a concise explanation of the meaning of a word or phrase or symbol 2: clarity of outline; "exercise had give his muscles superior definition"

So what does thou believe that thou has given us pray tell? Perhaps we should look directly within the horse's mouth, in order to find an answer -

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
An explanation...a description...

But let us not limit ourselves, and our understanding to but one interpretation of what a certain Lord Urizen has given. Perhaps if we look deeper within the horse's mouth, we can find another "explanation" of "Love" that thou mayhaps hath provided --

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am not defining what Love is, because I beleive that as limitted human beings, we can EXPLAIN LOVE, but not define it.

And if we -- once again, look further -- we can find another "explanation"
(and another misrepresentation of what I've stated -- if I might add)

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Limitting myself to the Bible, then YES, I could only argue that If Jesus is Love, then only Christians are loving.....like you claim.

And still others --

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
However, I am not limitting myself to the Bible. The Bible does not OWN Jesus, so I may refer to him as I wish.

It is my conclusion that if Jesus is truly the embodyment of Love, then everyone who LOVES is part of Christ. Regardless of whether or not they beleive in him... ✅

Yes. It means sh*t to me, because I am not using the Bible in my conclusion.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If you and I do not possess the intellect necessary to define Love, then no....we cannot define it. That was my stance before, and is still my stance now.

Once again, sadly missing and/or misrepresenting the point. Love can indeed be defined, however, just giving a simple definition -- does not mean that one has a complete understanding of the definition they have given.

For example, one can give you an "explanation" of what a "definition" is, however, this "explanation" is only limited to the understanding and knowledge available to them at the time--

so what does thou think of those apples?(rhetorical witty question, no need to answer)

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Can you define hate ?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Read the above.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I understand the Bible's stance, but I care not. I already told you I was not limitting myself to the Biblical definition of Love, because I beleive that no human source can truly define Love.

If anything, Love can best be explained through collective means. Since we ALL individualize what we call Love, no one definition could ever suffice.

Does my logic still appear "warped" to you, or are your brains still scrambled by scripture ?

Again, God's version of love -- as it is described in the bible, can not be compared synonymously with your worldly version. This has been stated to you multiple times. Your defense is to attempt to confute and/or intermingle the pure Godly love personified in the form of Christ, with your own perverted worldly interpretations of it -- and it is very clear for all to see that this is what you are doing. I have no desire in needlessly arguing with you in a circular fashion, particularly when my point has already been proved multiple times.

Good day to you sir. God bless.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If Jesus is Love....

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
If thou insists -- but let us first define what a "definition" is, so as not to further confound ourselves and others with our own varied, limited and personal interpretations of the terminology being used.

A definition and explanation are NOT the same thing. If you explain something descriptively you are not defining it. To define is to cast a permanent and complete label on something.

An explanation still leaves room for more intepretation.

Nice Try 👇

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
So what does thou believe that thou has given us pray tell? Perhaps we should look directly within the horse's mouth, in order to find an answer -

In a pathetic attempt to twist my words by accusing me of Defining Love when I am doing no such thing you have proven to me your own insecurity, not only with your religion, but your ability to debate.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
But let us not limit ourselves, and our understanding to but one interpretation of what a certain Lord Urizen has given. Perhaps if we look deeper within the horse's mouth, we can find another "explanation" of "Love" that thou mayhaps hath provided --

HA HAHA JU SO FONNY !

Another Christian insulting me....why am I not surprised ? 🙄

An explanation of Love from my perspective is just as valid as your own. We all possess Love. If Jesus is Love, then we all possess Jesus.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
And if we -- once again, look further -- we can find another "explanation"
(and another misrepresentation of what I've stated -- if I might add)

Yes, another explanation. NOT definition... ❌

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
And still others --

Yes, more explanations. I see nothing wrong with that.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Once again, sadly missing and/or misrepresenting the point. Love can indeed be defined, however, just giving a simple definition -- does not mean that one has a complete understanding of the definition they have given.

Love cannot truly be defined. Atleast I do not beleive so. It can be explained, but for a true definition of Love to exist, we must all accept it.

Not everybody accepts the Biblical description of Love, the same way not everyone accepts MY or Your own description of Love. What part do you not get ?

The Bible's definition is no more valid that my explanation, Shaky's explanation, your explanation, or even JM's dumb explanation.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
For example, one can give you an "explanation" of what a "definition" is, however, this "explanation" is only limited to the understanding and knowledge available to them at the time--

Yes, I agree with you here entirely. ✅

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
so what does thou think of those apples?(rhetorical witty question, no need to answer)

Are all your questions rhetorical ? Because I don't think they deserve answers ❌

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Again, God's version of love -- as it is described in the bible, can not be compared synonymously with your worldly version. This has been stated to you multiple times. Your defense is to attempt to confute and/or intermingle the pure Godly love personified in the form of Christ, with your own perverted worldly interpretations of it -- and it is very clear for all to see that this is what you are doing. I have no desire in needlessly arguing with you in a circular fashion, particularly when my point has already been proved multiple times.

"God's version of Love" is a myth that you have validated through your own bias. That's fine, but to argue it as FACT is wrong 👇

The Bible's version cannot be compared with my own? OFCOURSE IT CAN ! It is no more factual than my own...neither I nor the Bible have a factual basis to back up our explanations of Love, only our own human biases. What part don't you get ?

MY OWN PERVERTED WORDLY INTEPRETATIONS - You sound like a MARCELLO whob-sock now. I just lost all respect for you.

Your point has not been proven in the least bit...you keep trying to shove the Bible up my ass, but there's only room there for dildos, so quit trying.

Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Good day to you sir. God bless.

You don't really mean that. And God cannot bless me if he doesn't exist. IF he in fact does exist, I challenge you to prove it. Otherwise, stop talking.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
My beleifs.....I am drawing a hypothetical conclusion that if Jesus is Love, then we are all part of Jesus....what evidense do you expect anyone to find ? You DO remember that you are in the RELIGION forum, right ? Evidense and Proof is almost RARE in these forums lol

I see nothing wrong with arguing philosophy in a religion forum, the same way you insist on arguing science in the religion forum. Im sad that you see it that way.

When presented with an evidenced physical basis for the collection of emotions we refer to as "love". You denied it. Then attacked both it and me with an array of leading questions in subsequent posts. Then continued to assert your belief belligerently as if it were fact, as you have with every other person posting in this thread. You've also made several unsubstantiated statements about natural animal behaviour.

You stated you do have evidence. Now you state one cannot find evidence and should not have to.

You're more than welcome to your philosophical beliefs, but you cannot deny evidenced scientific relationship between neurobiology and emotion based on an argument of personal incredulity. If one is to deny the credibility of an evidenced relationship, they must do so with evidence.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Take your own advice then....

All you have is the physical....you have no proof or disproof of the mental / emotional / spiritual existance or description of Love as a whole. Therefore, no matter how much science jumbo you throw my way, you could never truly disprove my assertion, the same way I cannot disprove yours. ❌

Sorry.....

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, yes. But absence of evidence is most certainly not evidence of existence. Your position is based on belief in an intangible existence, and nothing more, therefore it cannot be proven nor disproven. However you are arguing that one cannot prove you wrong therefore you can assert yourself as right. You're arguing your position is unquestionable because it's based on philosophy, while at the same time avidly questioning the philosophical and scientific stances put forward by others. As stated before hypocritical.

Conversely existence of evidence does show evidence of existence.
There is evidence for a physical basis for emotion. The evidence is sufficient for a physical basis for emotion to be considered fact. That is the extent to what I have implied.

You are right in that you cannot disprove this, but you're wrong in saying it's the same way. This can be disproven, however evidence that exists favours the current theory.

"There are invisible intangible flying monkeys." Prove me wrong.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You just said that an argument with no factual basis to support it is [b]WORTHLESS...you do REALIZE that 90% of the religion forum is NOT based on FACT but on beleif and personal philosophy right ?

By your own grammatically accurate statement, you also argue that what the Buddha taught is worthless, because Buddha had no factual basis behind his teachings....just his experience and bias.

It is highly relevant in this case. You are demeaning this entire THREAD worthless because PHYSICAL PROOF cannot be supplied for a philosophical take on the possibility of the mental/spiritual existance of Love.

You are foolish in this case, and you cannot see that....why not ?[/B]

I'm basically going to ignore this strawman segment. And reiterate the context was clearly with regard to when one forms an argument or explanation of phenomena based purely on personal belief. Especially when one does so in attempt to counter evidenced bases for the phenomena.

"The water cycle is wrong, invisible intangible flying monkeys piss water and that's how it rains."

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I agree with your first statement...so what? There will never be "proof" that you or anyone else can recognize for my arguments...since when does the religion forum require proof for beleif ?

As for what flaws ?...go back and read...I answered every argument thrown at me.

The only argument I have used in defence of the position, is that there is evidence for a physical basis for love, and there is no evidence for your belief. To which the only response has been "You cannot prove me wrong." "I don't need to prove myself."
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) When have I ever closed off on someone else's point of view. Disagreeing with someone does not constitute my "refusal" to see things from another perspective. What a horrible accusation, I am actually offended by that 🙁

2) The only FACTS I have presented were those on animal behavior. As for the theory or argument on Jesus Christ and Love, no facts are possible. It is all logic, philosophy, and religion.....the last 2 things you seem to be INTOLERANT of

A martyr complex. How quaint. You attack everything and anything that disagrees with your philosophy (I use the term broadly, not with regard to this thread). You've been unwilling to accept the physical basis for emotion and cognition as evidenced. Your debate consists of strawmanning, hysterical outbursts, invective and asking leading and baseless questions. Oh and smilies, let's not forget smilies.

As stated I base my opinions of phenomena on the tangible correlates with sufficient evidence for causation. I see nothing foolish or ignorant in this stance, nor do I feel the need to label those who don't hold this stance fools. As you seem to feel the need to do with regard to your beliefs.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
When presented with an evidenced physical basis for the collection of emotions we refer to as "love". You denied it. Then attacked both it and me with an array of leading questions in subsequent posts. Then continued to assert your belief belligerently as if it were fact, as you have with every other person posting in this thread. You've also made several unsubstantiated statements about natural animal behaviour.

1) I did not deny your evidense. I understand that the emotion and mental states of mind are definately linked with the physical. I am simply not convinced that everything mental/emotional or spiritual is purely physical in essense. I am convinced that the physical aspect is there, but not that Love is entirely physical and nothing more.

2) I never asserted by beleif as fact, I only backed up it with everything I could.

3) My statements about animal behavior are correct. I did not make any of it up. If I am wrong, it is because all my sources of information are misleading. Otherwise they are sincere and entirely valid.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[BYou stated you do have evidence. Now you state one cannot find evidence and should not have to.[/B]

Nope...I stated I have no PROOF....I already gave evidense for my assertions.

Proof and Evidense are two different things.....

I stated since there is no proof to validate the mental and/or spiritual existances, that scientific perspective is no more valid than philosophical perspective. Do you beg to differ ?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[BYou're more than welcome to your philosophical beliefs, but you cannot deny evidenced scientific relationship between neurobiology and emotion based on an argument of personal incredulity. If one is to deny the credibility of an evidenced relationship, they must do so with evidence.[/B]

I never denied your evidense. I see it as valid. I never denied the relationship. I only denied that Love is purely physical, which was your initial argument. I think you are mistaken as to what my stance actually is. It may be my own fauly, so I apologize if so.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[BAbsence of evidence is not evidence of absence, yes. But absence of evidence is most certainly not evidence of existence. Your position is based on belief in an intangible existence, and nothing more, therefore it cannot be proven nor disproven. However you are arguing that one cannot prove you wrong therefore you can assert yourself as right. You're arguing your position is unquestionable because it's based on philosophy, while at the same time avidly questioning the philosophical and scientific stances put forward by others. As stated before hypocritical.[/B]

My position is based on factual events (in regard to the observations and studies of animal behavior) and the rest on philosophy.

You do remember what I am actually arguing correct ? That If Jesus Christ is Love embodied then we all are part of Jesus.

What scientific facts can you present to disprove that assertion ?

I do not see how I am being a hypocrit. You are trying to argue the source of what we call Love, while I never really addressed that issue to begin with..only when you brought it up.

This thread is based on a philosophical statement alone...yes, I welcome your scientific input very much, but to say that my statement is entirely wrong because no physical evidense can back it up is a false argument.

How do you aim to use scientific evidense in a philosophical hypothesis that is incapable of being proven or disproven through physical means ????

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[BConversely existence of evidence does show evidence of existence.
There is evidence for a physical basis for emotion. The evidence is sufficient for a physical basis for emotion to be considered fact. That is the extent to what I have implied.[/B]

I agree and commend. There is nothing wrong there.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[BYou are right in that you cannot disprove this, but you're wrong in saying it's the same way. This can be disproven, however evidence that exists favours the current theory.[/B]

What theory are you talking about is what I am asking. I am arguing that if Jesus is love, then we all possess Christ in us.

I am also arguing that Love is NOT just a Christian ideal....again, how do you not see the foolishness in arguing against a purely philosophical idea with scientific data ?

That's sort of like me arguing with someone that Buddha is more loving than Jesus, and you jump in trying to use scientific data to make your stance.

Or like me arguing that Wolverine would beat Spiderman, and then you jumping in with a barrel load of scientific data where it doesn't really belong.

In terms of the argument as to "what is love" then yes, your arguments are indeed valid and welcome. But as to the hypothesis that if "Jesus is love, then we are all Christian" you could never come up with enough scientific information to make a valid argument.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
"There are invisible intangible flying monkeys." Prove me wrong.

I cannot. Invisible Intangible Flying Monkeys are as valid as the beleif if God. You cannot prove or disprove either one.

Same with the idea of Kharma and Reincarnation....try proving or disproving those theories.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[B I'm basically going to ignore this strawman segment. And reiterate the context was clearly with regard to when one forms an argument or explanation of phenomena based purely on personal belief. Especially when one does so in attempt to counter evidenced bases for the phenomena.[/B]

I did not attempt to counter your evidense, only your argument. I already know that Love has a physical aspect to it as well..... But initially you aimed to argue that Love is purely physical in nature, lacking any other aspect, and the rest is spawned from there....

I disagree.

I beleive that Love is physical, mental, emotional, AND spiritual. Unfortunately, as human beings we can only recognize the physical, and wondor about the rest.

Atleast we seem to agree that there IS a relationship between the physical and emotional.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[B"The water cycle is wrong, invisible intangible flying monkeys piss water and that's how it rains."
The only argument I have used in defence of the position, is that there is evidence for a physical basis for love, and there is no evidence for your belief. To which the only response has been "You cannot prove me wrong." "I don't need to prove myself."[/B]

And what exactly Is my belief? Do you even know ?

Again, you seem to think that I think Love has nothing to do with the physical, and I am telling you "YES I DO"...but I do not agree that it is physical in ROOT....

I also do not beleive Love can be defined. Your earliest argument I have actually read in articles, but those chemicals promote INFATUATION.....it's a form of Love, but not its entirety.

It still doesn't even FULLY explain the entirely of infatuation, so how could it explain the entirety of Love when none of us truly nor completely know what Love essentially is ?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
[BA martyr complex. How quaint. You attack everything and anything that disagrees with your philosophy (I use the term broadly, not with regard to this thread). You've been unwilling to accept the physical basis for emotion and cognition as evidenced. Your debate consists of strawmanning, hysterical outbursts, invective and asking leading and baseless questions. Oh and smilies, let's not forget smilies.[/B]

Read the above, this statement is entirely false.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
As stated I base my opinions of phenomena on the tangible correlates with sufficient evidence for causation. I see nothing foolish or ignorant in this stance, nor do I feel the need to label those who don't hold this stance fools. As you seem to feel the need to do with regard to your beliefs.

Don't try and play the "professional" here. I do think it is foolish to beleive that everything can be explained through physical means. We are not even fully equipped to understand the MIND in its complexity. For you to argue that Love is ONLY physical, and not spiritual or immaterial in ANYWAY is ignorant and foolish....

And accuse me of being "rude" all you want, but you have been just as rude as I have. So please....stop complaining and just debate. Thanks.

I've never stated that love is purely physical. I stated the known physical basis for emotions - neuroendocrine interaction. I wrote four lines.

Your response:
"No, that would be infatuation.
You attempted to explain Love through physical scientific means....so now I expect you to finish what you started. If you do not, I will disregard your assertion entirely." And an array of pointless questions.

I.e. denial of my point and attempt to deride it, while the behaviours one identifies with love have known biological correlates and causatives. Altering neurochemistry alters emotion, cognition and behaviour giving evidence for the physical basis. You do not believe it has physical root, yet you can offer nothing in opposition to the evidence for this except your own incredulity.

FYI proof and evidence. Synonyms. And arguing that a current lack of understanding and incomplete explanation for human emotions implies a supernatural or spiritual intangible existence is essentially a god of gaps approach.

While the OP was another one of your particular belligerent style of thread, the majority of the posts in it have been you questioning other people's personal views of what love is. Therefore saying my response to your denial of my simple statement on the known physical basis for emotion doesn't relate to your OP, which the majority of your post is saying, really isn't valid.

As to your last statements. You are more than happy to call proponents for a physical view of the world ignorant or foolish, and maintain a spiritual immaterial view of "love" based purely on your belief. Mirrored to your attacks on the religious for having no tangible evidences for their beliefs, you come off highly hypocritical.
" Can you prove that Satan has corrupted my mind? Can you prove that the Bible is Truth?

If not, then shut up ."
Apply that premise to your current stance. And heed your own words.

Your intolerance of my view of the world, your belief that one who holds such a view is ignorant and foolish, is of no significance to me. One can hold a physical view of the world and still admire it's beauty. The Aurora Borealis is no less beautiful to me simply because I know the manner in which it is produced. One can hold a position for the physical basis of emotion and still be enthralled in it.

Originally posted by ThePittman
I have already posted my definition of love but here you go again.

As for the love that I have for my mother or my wife you keep missing the point that I’m making. The term “love” is a human concept based on many emotions and it not one thing or feeling. When all sorts of feeling are combined into a general feeling for a person and then we call it love, love is many feeling and not one action or feeling can be called love. If you lust for someone does that mean you love them, if you put your self in harms way does that mean you love them, if you care for them when they are sick does that mean you love them? All of these things are parts of the meaning of “love” but none of them by itself is.

Yes we do learn more about animals as time goes on but certain things are already known. We film them and track them throughout the years and document herds and individual animals for decades now and with the behavior that they show on VERY rare occasions as to take care of another species or protect them would have been recorded or documented more frequently. Understanding observed behavior and knowing what is going on in their minds are very different things. Throwing a ball of string in front of a kitten you can observe the play and know that it will play with the string but knowing what it thinks the string is different but you do know of what the cause and effect is.

No response Lord Urizen? I took the time to answer yours. 😉

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I've never stated that love is purely physical. I stated the known physical basis for emotions - neuroendocrine interaction. I wrote four lines.

Then I was mistaken as to your stance. My apologies.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Your response:
"No, that would be infatuation.
You attempted to explain Love through physical scientific means....so now I expect you to finish what you started. If you do not, I will disregard your assertion entirely." And an array of pointless questions.

I don't see a problem here.

You have explained your way afterward, and I have considered and accepted your arguments, now that I am clear you are not stating that Love is purely physical in essence.

The questions were not pointless, because answering them would have not only proved to everyone the extent of your knowledge on the subject, but would have further validated your own point.

Why do you see them as pointless? Do they appear to be "idiotically easy" questions to answer? Oh forgive us great scientist for not having extensive scientific knowledge on the subject 🙄

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I.e. denial of my point and attempt to deride it, while the behaviours one identifies with love have known biological correlates and causatives. Altering neurochemistry alters emotion, cognition and behaviour giving evidence for the physical basis. You do not believe it has physical root, yet you can offer nothing in opposition to the evidence for this except your own incredulity.

No. Your point, as you clarified, was that Love has a chemical aspect to it. I originally beleived that your point was that Love is ONLY physical in nature, and has no spiritual or true immaterial aspect to it. Now that I am corrected as to what your stance is, we can move on. 🙂

I do beleive Love has a physical aspect, as I already heard your argument beforehand from articles and such. But I am not entirely convinced that Love is just physical. Do you still have a problem with that ?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
FYI proof and evidence. Synonyms. And arguing that a current lack of understanding and incomplete explanation for human emotions implies a supernatural or spiritual intangible existence is essentially a god of gaps approach.

Proof and Evidence are not the same thing. Evidence is anything factual or clear that can back up a point, while Proof leaves no room for denial.

They had much evidence against OJ Simpson, but his guilt in the murder of his wife was not proven.

I am surprised you did not know the difference.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
While the OP was another one of your particular belligerent style of thread, the majority of the posts in it have been you questioning other people's personal views of what love is. Therefore saying my response to your denial of my simple statement on the known physical basis for emotion doesn't relate to your OP, which the majority of your post is saying, really isn't valid.

Read the Above

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
As to your last statements. You are more than happy to call proponents for a physical view of the world ignorant or foolish, and maintain a spiritual immaterial view of "love" based purely on your belief. Mirrored to your attacks on the religious for having no tangible evidences for their beliefs, you come off highly hypocritical.

Nope. Wrong again 👇

I have no problem with a materialistic view of the world. But you attempted to refute my argument that Love doesn't exist as anything other than physical reaction (or atleast that is how I saw it), through physical means only.

I see it ignorant for someone to ONLY pay attention to the physical, and IGNORE all possibility of the emotional and spiritual.... Don't you ?

However, I think you already clarified that you did not close off on the immaterial aspect of Love yet.....

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
" Can you prove that Satan has corrupted my mind? Can you prove that the Bible is Truth?

If not, then shut up ."
Apply that premise to your current stance. And heed your own words.

That was in response to Sonnet who made a very offensive post, so I made a very offensive response back.

At the same time, even though neither of our stances provide proof, my stance still provides some evidense (animal behavior) and Logic. Sonnet's stance only provided closed Biblical text, and no logic what-so-ever.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Your intolerance of my view of the world, your belief that one who holds such a view is ignorant and foolish, is of no significance to me. One can hold a physical view of the world and still admire it's beauty. The Aurora Borealis is no less beautiful to me simply because I know the manner in which it is produced. One can hold a position for the physical basis of emotion and still be enthralled in it.

When did I say I was intolerant of your worldview? Please stop putting words in my mouth or making false accusations.

I simply beleive that an intentional view of only the physical, and ignorance of other possibilities..is...well..infact...ignorant.

However, I thnk you already clarified that you are not disregarding the immaterial existances, so for that I commend you.

Originally posted by ThePittman
No response Lord Urizen? I took the time to answer yours. 😉

😮 Sorry....

I have been kinda swamped responding to so many disagreements lol. I am kinda surprised that so many people, especially Liberals, have disagreed with me on my most initial argument.

Originally posted by ThePittman
I have already posted my definition of love but here you go again.

We all attempt to define Love, because we all individualize this force. I beleive that your definition, X's definition, Usagi's definition are all valid, but not complete.

I beleive I can only describe Love as a natural force that exists among humans and animals alike, with the purpose of unification.

Other than that, I do not truly beleive I can Define Love in a complete, accurate, and entirely true context. Only explain it.

Originally posted by ThePittman
As for the love that I have for my mother or my wife you keep missing the point that I’m making. The term “love” is a human concept based on many emotions and it not one thing or feeling. When all sorts of feeling are combined into a general feeling for a person and then we call it love, love is many feeling and not one action or feeling can be called love. If you lust for someone does that mean you love them, if you put your self in harms way does that mean you love them, if you care for them when they are sick does that mean you love them? All of these things are parts of the meaning of “love” but none of them by itself is.

"Love" is not even a human concept if you want to get literal. It is just a word. A word for something that DOES exist though ✅

The same way "Gravity" is just a word. A word for something that does exist as well.

I think you would agree with me that Love cannot be fully explained through a single definition, nor is it the same for everyone.

Originally posted by ThePittman
Yes we do learn more about animals as time goes on but certain things are already known. We film them and track them throughout the years and document herds and individual animals for decades now and with the behavior that they show on VERY rare occasions as to take care of another species or protect them would have been recorded or documented more frequently. Understanding observed behavior and knowing what is going on in their minds are very different things. Throwing a ball of string in front of a kitten you can observe the play and know that it will play with the string but knowing what it thinks the string is different but you do know of what the cause and effect is.

We can observe and study animal behavior all we want, but we will never be able to fully investigate thier mind sets.

You do have to admit however.....if you watch closely, a lot of the behaviors that exist in animals, with regard to the way they treat and interact with animals of their own and different species, do very much coincide with common human behavior.

We just happen to be smarter, so we can give labels to and attempt organization at this force known as Love. Animals may not have a strong concept of Love, but I still beleive they possess it based on what we already collectively know about thier behavior.

AS for XMarksthespot's theory, if Humans do in fact possess love, then so do animals. Both animals and humans consists of chemicals, so if the force we know as love does exist beyond the physical, then we all possess it.

I refuse to beleive that Human Beings are the only creatures that possess what we know as Love. There's too much contradiction with that assertion. Animals are NOT programmed....they have a flexible will as we do.

Originally posted by ThePittman
Love in animals in not what we call love, they protect their young not because they love them but it is they instinct and survival, they must breed and multiply or they die. You also forget that most species kill their young as well if they are not fit to survive.
See, this is what I've been saying.

But I don't get that "what we call love" what we call love is something religious. There is no love, only lust and instinct.

Think about it. Your mum or wife does things for you that you like. If it is done for a long time, say 10 years, then you would sub-concsiouncesly (sp?) depend on her and what she does. So if you see something bad happen to her, like if she's diseased, you would be sad because sub-consciounsly you rely on the things you do, and your mind realises that your life will have to change temporarily or permanent. And the fact that no human likes change (subconcsiounsly) ... well you get the idea.

It's the same with guilt. People don't feel "guilt" either. Is it guilt, or is it fear of getting caught? Some people who are told that stealing is bad, (and have gotten punished for stealing) will feal "guilt". However, if they weren't taught stealing is wrong, they won't feel guilt because they don't realise something bad might happen.

And that's basically what these things are. Love, Guilt, Religion, Philosophy, these things are taught to people as true (or a possibilty of being true), so they see something, they would see it as what the philosophical explanation, and not the scientific definition.

In my opinion, I see all religion as equal, all beliefs that are unexplanitory as equal with eachother and religion, and philosophical beliefs as the same.

One person would say that the Lord of the Rings book is absolute fiction and their is no such thing as an elf. Others would see gods and deities as fiction and none-existant.

The way I see it, they are all right. Anything that has flaws is wrong IMO. But yes, I'm only a young child, I may understand things as I am older, but for now, these are my opinions.

If you haven't already got what I've been saying, then this is what I'm trying to say:

Anything made-up can be true, goblins, wizards, god, fate, love, all made up, all could be true. But there is no proof that they are true, and there is no proof they are false. But the fact they are made up, is evidence enough to me to say they aren't true. But I will still keep an open mind about this. Prove me wrong, go on. I will listen to what you have said, I will learn, study, do whatever I can. But I do know if something is plain bullshit. It's not hard to spot. But I will listen nonetheless. 😉

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Why do you see them as pointless? Do they appear to be "idiotically easy" questions to answer? Oh forgive us great scientist for not having extensive scientific knowledge on the subject 🙄
No mainly because like many of your posts I assumed they were an array of questions intended to denigrate the other person's viewpoint. And although you may retroactively claim alternative intention I'm going to continue to hold that assumption.

Here's an example of your tactic:
Lacking the receptors for dopamine, serotonin etc. i.e. the physical correlates, can one feel happy due to an immaterial spiritual causative force?

You need not answer the question if you don't wish to.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No. Your point, as you clarified, was that Love has a chemical aspect to it. I originally beleived that your point was that Love is ONLY physical in nature, and has no spiritual or true immaterial aspect to it. Now that I am corrected as to what your stance is, we can move on. 🙂

I do beleive Love has a physical aspect, as I already heard your argument beforehand from articles and such. But I am not entirely convinced that Love is just physical. Do you still have a problem with that ?

I've only put forward a viewpoint, you were the one on the attack. There is still no reason for one to believe in an immaterial causation, when there is physical explanation. That I don't deny the possibility of the immaterial does not mean I believe in it nor an argument of it's existence based on nothing more than belief. I'm still of the opinion that the physical processes underlie behaviour. Do you still have a problem with that?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Proof and Evidence are not the same thing. Evidence is anything factual or clear that can back up a point, while Proof leaves no room for denial.

They had much [b]evidence against OJ Simpson, but his guilt in the murder of his wife was not proven.

I am surprised you did not know the difference.[/B]

Proof and evidence are used as synonyms in everyday usage. I can substitute the word proof for evidence in that sentence and it's still cogent. If anything your statement shows that proof is not irrefutable, as he was proven innocent while in all likelihood he did kill his wife.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Nope. Wrong again 👇

I have no problem with a materialistic view of the world. But you attempted to refute my argument that Love doesn't exist as anything other than physical reaction (or atleast that is how I saw it), through physical means only.

I see it ignorant for someone to ONLY pay attention to the physical, and IGNORE all possibility of the emotional and spiritual.... Don't you ?

However, I think you already clarified that you did not close off on the immaterial aspect of Love yet.....

You seem a little confused. I attempted to refute your argument that love doesn't exist as anything other than physical reaction through physical means only? Anyway, I need not refute your argument as all it's based upon is personal belief.

No I don't find it arrogant. If one can find cause in the natural physical world, I see no need to look to the supernatural i.e. spiritual, and emotion is based on the physical so I am not ignoring it.

I still find your approach to this hypocritical. I neither accept nor deny an existence of the immaterial, whether it be a deity or an immaterial basis for love, however I do not find any reason to believe in either nor does that affect me in any way. While you are happy to accept the immaterial with regard to one matter without any tangible basis while equally happy to scorn those who accept the immaterial with regard to another.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That was in response to Sonnet who made a very offensive post, so I made a very offensive response back.

At the same time, even though neither of our stances provide proof, my stance still provides some evidense (animal behavior) and Logic. Sonnet's stance only provided closed Biblical text, and no logic what-so-ever.

Your evidence is anecdotal, unsubstantiated and/or unreferenced, and in some cases plainly illogical i.e. on what basis do you derive that the level of instinctive behaviour is uniform across a species. Additionally what argument based on logic have you provided? NB Argument from personal incredulity, god of gaps argument and strawmanning are all recognised as logical fallacy.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
When did I say I was intolerant of your worldview? Please stop putting words in my mouth or making false accusations.
I simply beleive that an intentional view of only the physical, and ignorance of other possibilities..is...well..infact...ignorant.
However, I thnk you already clarified that you are not disregarding the immaterial existances, so for that I commend you.
One does not need to say they are intolerant. You display a lack of willingness to entertain the thought that these other possibilities do not exist, which is equally "ignorant."

To clarify I am not disregarding the possibility of the immaterial, but that does not imply believing in it, which is perfectly rational.