Aegis and Tenebrous vs The Spectre.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This thread is madness.

I'm a die hard Marvel fan,

but Aegis and Tenebrous don't stand a chance against Spectre, unless it's that back in day version that used to tussle with average humans.

The several pages after that have been all about comparisons between Galactus and Spectre and Spectre and Living Tribunal.

i don't think (and never HAVE thought) lt and spectre equate very well, either. for me, it ties into spectre's ties to humanity. his decisions are often coloured by his humanity -- it was a way to add depth to his character. the force within him is divine, but the framework is/was/has been human.

lt is purely a cosmic force, as far from 'human' as it gets. he's like a computer -- he can't be reasoned with (usually) he just calculates the balance (which i agree DOES extend beyond the simple ideas of "good or evil"😉 and if there is an imbalance he takes measures to correct them. that simple.

lt wouldn't hesitate to wipe out an entire universe if it threatened other universes or the 'balance'. spectre might have the power to do that, but for him it would be (or so it seems to me) a much more difficult and thought out choice. also, spectre is technically WRATH, not 'judge'. i've always thought of him as the RESULT of divine judgement -- the executioner, so to speak.

lt is judge, jury AND executioner.

back to the topic -- i find all the discussion about tenebrous, aegis, galactus and the cosmic balance kinda funny given they've appeared in like, 2 issues. whatever they turn out to be, tenebrous and aegis are NOT the 'same' as galactus. only g was saved by the universe itself (unless it turns out t and a (heheh) are ALSO from g's previous universe. THAT would be kinda cool . . .) therefore, it stands to reason they evolved in this universe, for whatever reason, but all this speculation treated as fact is . . . interesting . . .

Well, I sort of agree with you Leonidas on how Spectre and LT are different.

But I think you're incorrect about Aegis and Tenebrous. If you read Silver Surfer: Annihilation, they are also survivors of the old universe just like Galactus. They are equal to power to Galactus. They also served the same role as Galactus, "Proemiel Elders." Apparently, Galactus was being a good boy and serving his role and Aegis and Tenebrous decided to do things their own way, by remaking the universe in their own images. Galactus even refers to them all collectively as the only survivors. They are not beings that came after through evolution. So that much isn't speculation.

where does it say they were from the old universe?

Gawd. Triple post. >.<

Oops.

Ho hum. I think I may have assumed they were. Sorry. I thought it was stated explicitly, but I've been reading through it and they don't. Here's the most on-point panel. I guess because Galactus refers to them all as "we of the cosmic balance," and then talks about the power of the young universe being all that could held them, I assumed the "war" they referred to happened before the universe was born. But I'm probably wrong on that. Because as far as we know, marvel history states Galactus was the sole survivor, the new universe was born and then he came to be transformed in it. So the war couldn't have happened before the new universe was born, because Galactus was not even there to fight it. Aegis and Tenebrous origins, although Galactus' equals as "Proemiel Elders," does not seem to indicate the same history. Although, this does not discount their origin as being from the prior universe either. They also could be from the prior universe, woke up just like Galactus did and started fighting it out, til Galactus trapped em. We'll just have to see. Good catch tho, leonidas. 😮

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ho hum. I think I may have assumed they were. Sorry. I thought it was stated explicitly, but I've been reading through it and they don't. Here's the most on-point panel. I guess because Galactus refers to them all as "we of the cosmic balance," and then talks about the power of the young universe being all that could held them, I assumed the "war" they referred to happened before the universe was born. But I'm probably wrong on that. Because as far as we know, marvel history states Galactus was the sole survivor, the new universe was born and then he came to be transformed in it. So the war couldn't have happened before the new universe was born, because Galactus was not even there to fight it. Aegis and Tenebrous origins, although Galactus' equals as "Proemiel Elders," does not seem to indicate the same history. Although, this does not discount their origin as being from the prior universe either. They also could be from the prior universe, woke up just like Galactus did and started fighting it out, til Galactus trapped em. We'll just have to see. Good catch tho, leonidas. 😮

no prob. tenebrous, aegis and g were the last survivors of a war fought while the universe was young. it's interesting to think there were other beings like them (somehow associated with universal concordance) who were all destroyed in the war. perhaps marvel will end up saying they WERE from the same universe. that might be kinda cool.

even still, from what we KNOW, g is unique. we also know that he defeated them in the past somehow -- a story i REALLY want to hear . . .

You and me both. I like 'Annihilation.' -.-b

Me too. I just don't like they captured Galactus. At this rate I'm feeling bad for Surfer and I'm totally sad because Quasar died.

quasar died? 😕 i've got the ss arc and the main body. where did q die?

>.< Sorry about the spoiler. Quasar died in Nova: Annihilation #4.

Quasar didn't die.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No, wait stop. I already ended that debate in like page 6. After arguing against Juntai for pages and pages, I finally saw a hole in my argument. Read it. There is no more issue. I agree Spectre can beat Aegis and Tenebrous. Although, not in the way Juntai speculated. I essentially beat myself. Short story: I said Galactus is a Proemial Elders who's purpose was to serve balance and end and become everything in existence. Therefore, Spectre cannot touch him since Galactus isn't doing evil. I then proved that Aegis and Tenebrous are Galactus' peers as Proemial Elders. But what I failed to see, was that Aegis and Tenebrous had defied the Creator by trying to remake the universe in their own image. So if they defied the Creator, God would probably cast his Wrath on him. Therefore, Galactus' immunity from Wrath does not work, since Aegis and Tenebrous defied the Creator, unlike Galactus.

The several pages after that have been all about comparisons between Galactus and Spectre and Spectre and Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by Tshern
I admire that. Not only you had a good argument and point, but you when you found a hole in it you admitted it. There's still one thing I disagree with you, though. I still haven't checked the issue, but I recall it was never said Aegis and Tenebrous were survivors from the last universe.

This is correct. I read somewhere the comic creators stated that Aegis and Tenebrous were not from the previous universe. Rather they were beings that Galactus had battled at the dawn of time after awakening.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Quasar didn't die.

Annihilus killed him most unlikely.

Originally posted by Rewmac
Annihilus killed him.

I don't do that. I like to enjoy comics rather than reading spoilers 😄

I win 😄 💃 💃

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Since Juntai thought it wise to start a new thread. Why not. Let's do it. I'll repost and edit some things from the older source thread and clean it up a bit.

Illadelph12 has excellent points. For a piece of God, he sure is stupid and easily manipulated. Not only that, but he moved against God's will and was punished. The comparison has been made and it works, Spectre is a glorified Ghost Rider. Living Tribunal never gets jobbed like this. For Juntai's credit, he came up with one argument: Bad writing. Thanks for nothing. This 'writing' has been going on for years, and i respect all the DC authors and editors' depiction of Spectre, more than I do your opinion and willingness to disregard continuity.

But I'm not going to simply piggyback Illadelph12's arguments. I'll add to them. Spectre has not just been shown to be easily manipulated and downright stupid at times. He has also been definitively shown to have limits. He couldn't do crap to Parallax. Truth. Read 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' I don't give a crap about Hallax from 'Zero Hour' (otherwise known as the sequel DC wishes they could forget). I'm talking about the cosmic personification of fear...

Spectre and the Wrath of God could not do anything, in fact his powers were being manipulated by Parallax, subverted. Hence, the analogy that Spectre seems essentially ineffective against cosmic beings that appear to be part of the cosmic consonance. Because Spectre is in fact, ineffective against things. Parallax being one of them, antimatter being another. Limits.

Another argument as to why Spectre has NOTHING on Galactus. As it has been pointed out, Spectre's only role is to judge beings who do wrong and carry out wrathful judgement upon them. So in the cosmic scheme of life and God's plan, how can Galactus ever be judged? He is beyond morals and judgement, there is no wrong to be judged, no wrath to be assessed. Galactus is far more than a giant with a purple suit who eats worlds. He is the the End and Beginning of all that is.

And one who is outside the emo concept of right and wrong is beyond Spectre's power. This is how I would imagine if FP Spectre ever ran after FP Galactus, had he been manipulated again. Spectre would destroy all that is, maybe even kill Eternity to kill Galactus. Since no life remained, Death would probably disappear also as her role is complete. It'd be nothing but pure blackness and Galactus and Spectre floating in space. Galactus would turn to him and say, "I remain, because I am the new beginning. You're wrath does not impede the cycle of all that is. Now go to a corner and put your dunce cap on."

Another point, since you guys are so focused on 'wrath of god' terms. Literal 'Wrath of God' sure does sound impressive. But if you want to consider Spectre in his role as God's Wrath, please tell me the appropriate analogy of how Galactus fits into God's plan or what role he plays. You constantly harp about Galactus not being on par with the Wrath of God? Are you kidding me? What are you guys, so in love with wrath and being emo that you can't figure out what being the alpha and omega of existence, is in terms of God? He is the personification of the 'Cycle of God.' He is the 'Balance Bringer.' Compared to the engine of wrath who judges wrong or right in mortals, Galactus is higher up on the food chain here. Don't let the costume fool you because you ought to be more intelligent than that.

Aegis and Tenebrous, feared even by Galactus and as far as we've been told, his peers and equals. No contest when you amp them all to full power. What roles, Aegis and Tenebrous serve in the cosmic consonance will be interesting to discover. If Aegis and Tenebrous do not serve an important function of the universe, they may very well be DOA when Spectre comes around. But until then, they are every bit Galactus' equal and therefore, over Spectre.

And just to cut this thread short, these are the arguments to be made and rebutted. I don't want to see scans of Galactus being staggered by Thor and some emo Spectre freak screaming how Spectre could never be hurt by that. Otherwise, I'll school you. And if there is a guy who's reading this and is 10 seconds away from posting such drivel and still doesn't understand why, I'll spell it out for you: 1) You want to use FP Spectre's high end feats as proof, consider Galactus/Aegis and Tenebrous at full power; 2) You want to consider Spectre's role in God's plan, consider Galactus' role in God's plan and since we've been shown nothign else, consider Aegis and Tenebrous' role to be on par.

Lastly, I have no respect for arguments made that continue to assert that the past 4 years of writing are to be ignored, simply for the sake of holding onto some discarded fan favorite version of a character. If Annihilation 6 came out tomorrow and the next 4 years of Marvel writing portrayed Galactus to be a deluded Celestial, would you let me disregard that? I think not. Spectre is what he is. Spectre has really had a lot to do in recent years. Deal with it. You don't like it, fine, criticize it all you want. But don't come to KMC and expect such blindness to pass as logic.

EDIT: And if you're interested in my theory as to why Spectre is being treated the way he is and how his current state could be easily be reconciled with what you know about him, I'll tell you. But I'd like to focus on this debate for now. I like taking unpopular opinions that I believe are right. It's a challenge to smash preconceptions.