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Originally posted by Swirly Girl
No, the onus is upon you to come up with the proof; insofar as you're the one making the assumption. You can scream this over and over again, whether it be here or EoD; but you need to come up with some hard, solid proof and not just idle conjecture.
Why exactly is it my job to prove that she can't use her instakill?
Originally posted by Escape81
Zephiel, once again, I have to ask, why the hell would you make such a thread? If you give Traya her instakill - she's going to win. Easily.See, this is why people call you a KotoR fanboy. Seriously. Make threads in which combatants have a chance.
Well, maybe if you got your head out of your ass, you could see the arguments that people who are for Maul and Dooku make. Obviously they have some grounds to make their argument. I am interested in seeing them.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Me stating that she cannot use the drain move without the Exile being present is just to show that the idea that she CAN use it is not yet conclusive.
What exactly is the proof that she can use it only around the Exile, Glentract?
That she can use it whenever she wants seems conclusive enough. She used it when she needed it against the Jedi masters. She used it when she needed against the Sith Assassins that surrounded her in Malachor 5, whilst she was not in the Exile’s prescence.
Are you of the belief that since she did not use it against Sion initially, means that she cannot do it UNLESS she is around the Exile? Far too little evidence on your part to make a valid conclusion. This hypothesis is falsified simply because there exists more likely possibilities that require fewer assumptions:
A) She was recovering from being disconnected from the force
OR
B) She was severely wounded when the Ebon Hawk experienced massive fire. (Hint: her wounds were so bad, the crew thought she was dead)
If a force user experiences fatigue, or was disconnected from the force, it is obvious that they cannot perform techniques that require a higher degree of concentration.
Well, maybe if you got your head out of your ass, you could see the arguments that people who are for Maul and Dooku make. Obviously they have some grounds to make their argument. I am interested in seeing them.
Well, maybe if you could actually... I dunno... DEBATE, you'd understand that if she has her instakill, she's gonna instantly kill them (which is what 'instakil' means). I think that thought alone of a KotoR era person beating a PT person makes you aroused... which is why you allowed instakills.
Originally posted by Escape81
Well, maybe if you could actually... I dunno... DEBATE, you'd understand that if she has her instakill, she's gonna instantly kill them (which is what 'instakil' means). I think that thought alone of a KotoR era person beating a PT person makes you aroused... which is why you allowed instakills.
I suppose YOU do not understand the idea of debating. We both make up our arguments by supplying proof that is either from a source or through logical deductions.
Glentract WAS bringing up an argument that Traya can't use the instantkill all the time. If he has an argument, then we can debate .
But I suppose you didn't follow my advice and decided to keep your head comfortably tucked in your rear end.
Me stating that she cannot use the drain move without the Exile being present is just to show that the idea that she CAN use it is not yet conclusive.
Excuse me, Glentract? Are you trying to say that you can dissuade an arguement or prove that "it is not conclusive" without any proof whatsoever? Let's have a little lesson, kiddies. Here's the definition of proof from dictionary.com:
proof (prf) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "proof" [P]
n.1. The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.
2.
1. The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
2. A statement or argument used in such a validation.
3.
1. Convincing or persuasive demonstration: was asked for proof of his identity; an employment history that was proof of her dependability.
2. The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence.
4. Determination of the quality of something by testing; trial: put one's beliefs to the proof.
5. Law. The result or effect of evidence; the establishment or denial of a fact by evidence.
6. The alcoholic strength of a liquor, expressed by a number that is twice the percentage by volume of alcohol present.
7. Printing.
1. A trial sheet of printed material that is made to be checked and corrected. Also called proof sheet.
2. A trial impression of a plate, stone, or block taken at any of various stages in engraving.
8.
1. A trial photographic print.
2. Any of a limited number of newly minted coins or medals struck as specimens and for collectors from a new die on a polished planchet.
9. Archaic. Proven impenetrability: “I was clothed in Armor of proof” (John Bunyan).
^ You'll note that I bolded the particular passages that were relevant.
To be quite frank, Glentract; you've not brought any proof. You've whined and bitched about how she can't use it; without providing anything that even vaguely resembles a logical and well-thought out argument. The base position, Glentract; is that she can use her drain whenever she likes, insofar as no evidence to the contrary has been presented. Not by you, or anyone else.
You see Glentract, in order to debate; we have to rely on a premise. The premise is that Kreia can use her draining ability all the time, insofar as she hasn't been shown to be restricted in that ability. You need a logical argument to debunk this premise or facts that provide evidence to the contrary. You've provided neither.
Guess what, Glentract? It's time you proved up, because this is ****ing tiring. Either you lay some solid facts down onto the debating table or you shut the **** up. Period.
Darth Maul was cited by several sources to be one of the most lethal and deadly apprentices in the Sith's history. He's been described as an instrument of pure destruction, as well. He crushed Anoon Bondara - a Jedi instructor on par with Masters Yoda and Windu (in lightsaber combat) - and had a nasty habit (as we know from Shadow Hunter) of fighting half-heartedly, as to gauge and test his opponent's strength.
We know that he dominated Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in terms of abilities. Qui-Gon was superior to Obi-Wan, and Qui-Gon himself understood that Maul was quite a bit better than him.
I am a bit skeptical to assume that Traya is as skilled as he is, with a lightsaber. Her powers in the Force are, of course, quite a bit better than his. But he possesses immense physical prowess and raw energy that I don't believe, for a moment, that Traya could keep up with him.
I do believe that, without her instakill, she would be overwhelmed by these two. Count Dooku is likely much better in lightsaber combat than she is, as well, and he is pretty powerful in the Force as well.
That said, it is only testimony to Zephiel's ridiculous fanboyism that he made this thread. Traya is correct; Glentract's theories are just that - theories - and he can't seem to provide any evidence to support that her instakill derives from the Exile's status in the Force.
I'm half tempted to make a NJO Luke, DE Sidious, and Yoda vs. Revan thread to counter the sheer stupidity of this one...
About Anoon Bondara, it's pretty tricky to gauge just exactly how powerful he was. His padawan, Darsha Assant considered him the best swordsman she'd ever seen. Obi-Wan viewed him as one of the best saber duelists of the order. These quotes alone would pretty much put him on par with the top jedi in terms of dueling, however when Maul defeats him, he thinks to himself that while it was great to kill a jedi, what he really desired was to be tested against one of the top jedi such as Mace Windu or Plo Koon. Now this quote would seemingly put Plo Koon and Mace Windu a league anove him.
Originally posted by Dessel
About Anoon Bondara, it's pretty tricky to gauge just exactly how powerful he was. His padawan, Darsha Assant considered him the best swordsman she'd ever seen. Obi-Wan viewed him as one of the best saber duelists of the order. These quotes alone would pretty much put him on par with the top jedi in terms of dueling, however when Maul defeats him, he thinks to himself that while it was great to kill a jedi, what he really desired was to be tested against one of the top jedi such as Mace Windu or Plo Koon. Now this quote would seemingly put Plo Koon and Mace Windu a league anove him.
Well, considering how Plo Koon sucked in comparison to Mace, it is likely that Maul went by reputation.
I'm half tempted to make a NJO Luke, DE Sidious, and Yoda vs. Revan thread to counter the sheer stupidity of this one...
The fact that an argument was made means the thread was relevant, kiddo. Differing arguments = debate.
You can troll about me being a "fanboy" as much as you want, the fact is, it is quite humorous that I am apparently the cause of your distress, especially with something so ridiculous as a "Star Wars debate," which incidentally means jack shit to me.
Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Guess what, Glentract? It's time you proved up, because this is ****ing tiring. Either you lay some solid facts down onto the debating table or you shut the **** up. Period.
You're telling me to put osme facts on the table? I don't think you're one to talk as you almost never make any comments towars the topic at hand. The fact is that there are to many holes in the case for Traya being able to use her instakill for it to be taken seriously. Why didn't she use it on Nihilus when he and Sion were rebelling against her? Why didn't she use it against Sion on Peragus? Why didn't she use it against the Exile on Malachor?
And the main problem I have with the idea that she can use it whenever she wants is that wouldn't have needed the Exile, or anyone else, (the people at the Trayus Academy) to accompish her goals if she was as powerful as that. She killed the three greatest Jedi with a wave of her hand. One of them, Kavar, is believed to have been nearly as good as Malak in saber combat. No one alive would be strong enough to stand against her. Why didn't she just go around and pwn all of the Jedi and Sith on her own?
If you want to argue Traya can use her instakill you need to prove it.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You're telling me to put osme facts on the table? I don't think you're one to talk as you almost never make any comments towars the topic at hand. The fact is that there are to many holes in the case for Traya being able to use her instakill for it to be taken seriously. Why didn't she use it on Nihilus when he and Sion were rebelling against her? Why didn't she use it against Sion on Peragus? Why didn't she use it against the Exile on Malachor?And the main problem I have with the idea that she can use it whenever she wants is that wouldn't have needed the Exile, or anyone else, (the people at the Trayus Academy) to accompish her goals if she was as powerful as that. She killed the three greatest Jedi with a wave of her hand. One of them, Kavar, is believed to have been nearly as good as Malak in saber combat. No one alive would be strong enough to stand against her. Why didn't she just go around and pwn all of the Jedi and Sith on her own?
If you want to argue Traya can use her instakill you need to prove it.
Well you'd have to understand the key element to her character, she didn't want to go around and WTFPWN everybody, she wanted to prove to them that they were wrong and she was right, why do you think she was so disgusted with the Exile in the Dark Side ending when she kills all the masters? And yes she can use without the Exile, Im pretty sure she did it to the Sith Assassins on Malachor.
And what would be the point of attempting a drain on Sion or Nihlius? Obviously it would do jack shit to Sion since, in the cut content when Nihlius does it he gets right back up, and for Nihlius how can you drain a wound in the force? Nihlius himself proved that it wouldn't work when he tried to drain the Exile. You have no proof.
This thread is stupid there is no way Dooku and Maul can win with the Instakill included, pure fanboyism.
The fact that an argument was made means the thread was relevant, kiddo. Differing arguments = debate.You can troll about me being a "fanboy" as much as you want, the fact is, it is quite humorous that I am apparently the cause of your distress, especially with something so ridiculous as a "Star Wars debate," which incidentally means jack shit to me.
No, here is the fact. You made this thread as a means of satisfying your pathetic KotoR-driven bias. That is made plain by the fact that you gave a KotoR-era character (Traya) an ability that instantly kills its victim (!).
Just how do you think that this fight was going to work? That Dooku and Maul would, somehow, be able to evade an attack that can instantly kill them (!), which is (incidentally) triggered by a wave of the hand?
We all know that you are a poor debator, Zephiel. That becomes crystal clear when incompetent threads like this are made.
Glentract's theories are just that, theories. His theory only contributes to the ineptitude of this thread. He has no concrete evidence to support him, other than Traya's inability to handle Sion and Nihilus ganging up on her. How exactly can he make an argument out of that?
I'll answer for you. He can't. But, being an inept debator, you probably can relate.
This thread is stupid there is no way Dooku and Maul can win with the Instakill included, pure fanboyism.
Ac, you took the words right outta my mouth. There's another person who thinks that this thread is stupid, Zephiel. Maybe you should start paying attention.
Glentract's theories are just that, theories. His theory only contributes to the ineptitude of this thread. He has no concrete evidence to support him, other than Traya's inability to handle Sion and Nihilus ganging up on her. How exactly can he make an argument out of that?
It's true, Traya being able to use her instakill only in the Exile's presence is only a theory. But the idea that she can use it wherever she wants is also a theory.
And I have more than just herinability to handle Sion and Nihilus on my side. Why didn't she just go around and pwn all of the Jedi and Sith on her own?