Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Also, I heard of a feat where Bullseye threw a toothpick through BULLET PROOF glass, and killed a person on the other side. This may be false, but I thought I'd mention it. After all, wouldnt that toothpick have to be going pretty damn fast ?
Originally posted by SpunkySmurphPunisher shooting at dd, dd dodges it, punisher throws some grenades into the mix, dd dodges them but to avoid the grenade dd must move out of its radius of damage which is large, punisher will make it so dd has only one area to move to, so he can nail him with some bullets or even another grenade...u guys make it sound like dd is superhuman, he isn't bulletproof and he will get hurt from shrapnel...u guys have to give punisher respect where it is due, i kno punisher will lose in a h2h battle, it would be close at times, but common punisher will take dd out with guns, dd even said it and to say that he has other ways of incapacitating dd i could say that is psi too...but u guys will never listen to my fanboy chatter so i'll just say i can agree to disagree...
You have to realize that , if well written, DD's powers are ideal, and suited perfectly for taking out guys exactly like Bullseye, Punisher, and those sorts.Also, I heard of a feat where Bullseye threw a toothpick through BULLET PROOF glass, and killed a person on the other side. This may be false, but I thought I'd mention it. After all, wouldnt that toothpick have to be going pretty damn fast ?
And whether Punisher is pulling the trigger is truly irrelevant. the only thing that affects the chance of DD dodging it is the spped of the bullet. And Frank doesnt affect that. Sorry fanboy.
Originally posted by SpunkySmurphI disagree with this. Who's firing matters entirely. If Punisher fires concentrated bursts that force DD into a corner, he cannot dodge it. He's not superhumanly fast. He does indeed dodge bullets all the time, because he's trained to know exactly how most gunmen fire and that the first shot is always the most accurate. After that, muzzleflash, kickback and muscle strain will always affect accuracy making it all the easier for DD. Depending on how good the gunman is and how good the gun is, DD cannot dodge bullets.
You have to realize that , if well written, DD's powers are ideal, and suited perfectly for taking out guys exactly like Bullseye, Punisher, and those sorts.Also, I heard of a feat where Bullseye threw a toothpick through BULLET PROOF glass, and killed a person on the other side. This may be false, but I thought I'd mention it. After all, wouldnt that toothpick have to be going pretty damn fast ?
And whether Punisher is pulling the trigger is truly irrelevant. the only thing that affects the chance of DD dodging it is the spped of the bullet. And Frank doesnt affect that. Sorry fanboy.
It's never been more clear than in DD #88. When Paladin fired his shot, it was out of the range of DD's radar senses. By the time the bullet came into his radar range, he could not react in time. It was too late. Only when the bullet is fired and DD can study it at that instant of discharge, does DD dodge bullets. What exactly should be taken from this example is this premise: "His radar sense must sense the discharge in order to have that split second in time in order to dodge a bullet. Therefore, DD cannot dodge a bullet through his own agility and speed alone."
DD doesn't dodge bullets like Superman or Spiderman. He dodges them differently, and the better the shooter, the better chance there is to nail him. For Bullseye's defense, Bullseye uses a lot of unconventional weaponry which totally surprise and makes it more effective on normal people because they underestimate or don't expect it from him. He rarely throws things that are as fast as bullets or can be thrown as quickly in succession as bullets are fired. And DD knows Bullseye. That's why Bullseye misses DD. Not because DD is faster than bullets. He's not. BTW, I totally can believe Bullseye can throw things as fast as bullets or nearly as fast. I watched on National Geogrpahic where a Chinese guy throws a toothpick through plate glass half an inch thick. Granted, he was five feet away, but it's about angle, precision and pure speed to pentrate something that thick with a toothpick and that Chinese guy practiced long enough to do it. But Bullseye doesn't throw things in as quick a succession as a simple gun can.
People should read Garth Ennis' Punisher under Marvel Max and DD/Punisher 'Means and Ends.' DD outclasses Castle in everyway, but Frank is still no pushover. Even in a straightup fist-fight, he can surprise DD. And if Punisher really wanted DD dead, he'd probably be dead a long time ago. That's the real reason Castle does not win.
DD 7/10
Contrary to what would appear to be popular belief here who is pulling the trigger does matter. In the case that it is the Punisher all he need do is lead the target, much like he has done to Spider-man. Shoot where your opponent is going not where he is. It is a tactic used in fighter ( aircraft ) combat all the time. Castles other option is to force Murdock into a situation where he cannot dodge, again a tactic already employed by Frank when he took out Spider-mans web shooters mid-swing. Oh and the most important point I can make here is the he has shot Matt before, that alone should be a huge indicator that he can do it.
On the subject of hand-to-hand regardless of whether he chooses to use it The Punisher is familiar with the "Eastern stuff". Even in predominately HtH combat he has shown the ability to take out DareDevil. In "Means and Ends" he more less makes Murdock look the fool. Matt pounds on Frank for like 4 or more panels, then when Frank is done dealing with it he knocks Matty boy on his ass. Hell by the end of the arc they are both maimed. For those claiming that Daredevil won straight up, I feel the need to point out that The Punisher was still moving and as long as he is moving the fights not over. I don't have the book handy, but after "DD won" didn't Castle manage to pick up his gone and shoot some intruders? Then their is the already mentioned incident in "Confederacy of Dunces" I think it was where The Punisher knocked Daredevil of a fire escape and landed on him or some such. As an aside that would be one of the instances where if Castle had wanted to shoot Murdock would have been hard pressed to dodge.
While prep time has been mentioned it should be noted that Frank is a far better tactician then Murdock or at least from what I have seen and this is not just at the planing stage it is all the way through to a punch up. For those of you wondering it does make a difference not only does it allow the afore mentioned use of the environment, but also that the one with a plan will fight on his terms and pull his opponent into his kind of fight. It kind of like a wrestler going to ground with a boxer.
Bloodlusted The Punisher is likely just to nuke the whole block and it'd still be a victory for him as his target was eliminated which means the op was a success. He is a soldier casualties ( even him ) are part of the deal.
Originally posted by NightstickFinally some common sense, i ve been trin to explain this to these guys for days but im that good at it, hopefully ur words will help sway their anti-frank mindset...
Contrary to what would appear to be popular belief here who is pulling the trigger does matter. In the case that it is the Punisher all he need do is lead the target, much like he has done to Spider-man. Shoot where your opponent is going not where he is. It is a tactic used in fighter ( aircraft ) combat all the time. Castles other option is to force Murdock into a situation where he cannot dodge, again a tactic already employed by Frank when he took out Spider-mans web shooters mid-swing. Oh and the most important point I can make here is the he has shot Matt before, that alone should be a huge indicator that he can do it.On the subject of hand-to-hand regardless of whether he chooses to use it The Punisher is familiar with the "Eastern stuff". Even in predominately HtH combat he has shown the ability to take out DareDevil. In "Means and Ends" he more less makes Murdock look the fool. Matt pounds on Frank for like 4 or more panels, then when Frank is done dealing with it he knocks Matty boy on his ass. Hell by the end of the arc they are both maimed. For those claiming that Daredevil won straight up, I feel the need to point out that The Punisher was still moving and as long as he is moving the fights not over. I don't have the book handy, but after "DD won" didn't Castle manage to pick up his gone and shoot some intruders? Then their is the already mentioned incident in "Confederacy of Dunces" I think it was where The Punisher knocked Daredevil of a fire escape and landed on him or some such. As an aside that would be one of the instances where if Castle had wanted to shoot Murdock would have been hard pressed to dodge.
While prep time has been mentioned it should be noted that Frank is a far better tactician then Murdock or at least from what I have seen and this is not just at the planing stage it is all the way through to a punch up. For those of you wondering it does make a difference not only does it allow the afore mentioned use of the environment, but also that the one with a plan will fight on his terms and pull his opponent into his kind of fight. It kind of like a wrestler going to ground with a boxer.
Bloodlusted The Punisher is likely just to nuke the whole block and it'd still be a victory for him as his target was eliminated which means the op was a success. He is a soldier casualties ( even him ) are part of the deal.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I disagree with this. Who's firing matters entirely. If Punisher fires concentrated bursts that force DD into a corner, he cannot dodge it. He's not superhumanly fast. He does indeed dodge bullets all the time, because he's trained to know exactly how most gunmen fire and that the first shot is always the most accurate. After that, muzzleflash, kickback and muscle strain will always affect accuracy making it all the easier for DD. Depending on how good the gunman is and how good the gun is, DD cannot dodge bullets.
I think whos firing matters to a degree in certain cases, but not in DD's case much. True someone with exceptional gun skills and tactics can fire to the point they lead their target into a corner, but because of DD's senses, he should never get cornered like so. This is one persone whos usually always aware of his surroundings. Secndly, if theres a way to get to the shooter, thats what DD does. He tries to close the gap the majority of the time instead of dodging entire clips/rounds. I do believe even if you have a top notch gunman, DD could still dodge the bullets or close the gap between him and the shooter. Just alot harder to do so.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's never been more clear than in DD #88. When Paladin fired his shot, it was out of the range of DD's radar senses. By the time the bullet came into his radar range, he could not react in time. It was too late. Only when the bullet is fired and DD can study it at that instant of discharge, does DD dodge bullets. What exactly should be taken from this example is this premise: "His radar sense must sense the discharge in order to have that split second in time in order to dodge a bullet. Therefore, DD cannot dodge a bullet through his own agility and speed alone."
In regards to DD#88, i think you mean DD v2 #79. I think thats a low showing for the radar. It would make sense that the shot was out of range and it would make sense that by time the bullet did get in range of his radar, he was to slow to react. HOWEVER, the fact that DD couldnt react in time is a low showing of the radar because as the bullet cuts through the air, DD is able to perceive it from more than 30 feet away. He should also be able to Hear the shot from over a mile away(Unless silecnced).
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
DD doesn't dodge bullets like Superman or Spiderman. He dodges them differently, and the better the shooter, the better chance there is to nail him.
Daredevil does dodge bullets moreso like Spiderman. They both rely on their senses primarily and agility and speed come secondary. At least thats how i see it. I do agree that the better the shooter, the better chance to nail him. However shooters dont come better than Bullseye, Punisher and Deadpool.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
For Bullseye's defense, Bullseye uses a lot of unconventional weaponry which totally surprise and makes it more effective on normal people because they underestimate or don't expect it from him. He rarely throws things that are as fast as bullets or can be thrown as quickly in succession as bullets are fired. And DD knows Bullseye. That's why Bullseye misses DD. Not because DD is faster than bullets. He's not.
I agree. Its those dam senses. Hed always be a move ahead than Bullseye can throw.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
BTW, I totally can believe Bullseye can throw things as fast as bullets or nearly as fast. But Bullseye doesn't throw things in as quick a succession as a simple gun can.
Agreed. Save for when he just throws tham all at the same time.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
People should read Garth Ennis' Punisher under Marvel Max and DD/Punisher 'Means and Ends.' DD outclasses Castle in everyway, but Frank is still no pushover. Even in a straightup fist-fight, he can surprise DD. And if Punisher really wanted DD dead, he'd probably be dead a long time ago. That's the real reason Castle does not win.DD 7/10
I dont think Franks a pushover in any way. In a well written straight up fist fight, he should never surprise DD. I do agree that if Punisher really wanted DD dead, hed be dead a long time ago. However i think thats only with the use of prep. No way Punishers hitting DD with a bullet. Even if he wanted to kill him.
Originally posted by Nightstick
Contrary to what would appear to be popular belief here who is pulling the trigger does matter. In the case that it is the Punisher all he need do is lead the target, much like he has done to Spider-man. Shoot where your opponent is going not where he is. It is a tactic used in fighter ( aircraft ) combat all the time. Castles other option is to force Murdock into a situation where he cannot dodge, again a tactic already employed by Frank when he took out Spider-mans web shooters mid-swing. Oh and the most important point I can make here is the he has shot Matt before, that alone should be a huge indicator that he can do it.
Like i stated before. If it were other targets, leading them would work. "Shoot where your opponent is going" wouldnt be an effective strategy against Daredevil because he knows where the shooter is aiming and is going to shoot unlike Spidey. Thus the shooters tactic of leading the target doesnt apply much to DD. Its been mentioned that Punisher alread shot DD. True, but thats a very low showing for DD. If we hold low showings as evident, many battles on this forum would be based off of them. That shouldnt be the case.
Originally posted by Nightstick
On the subject of hand-to-hand regardless of whether he chooses to use it The Punisher is familiar with the "Eastern stuff". Even in predominately HtH combat he has shown the ability to take out DareDevil.
He may be familiar with Eastern, but it doesnt meant hes adept with it or can defend it usefully.
Originally posted by Nightstick
In "Means and Ends" he more less makes Murdock look the fool. Matt pounds on Frank for like 4 or more panels, then when Frank is done dealing with it he knocks Matty boy on his ass. Hell by the end of the arc they are both maimed.
Uhh. Maybe you was reading something i wasnt. Daredevil was handing Frank his ass through the entire series. The final battle was made to look interesting instad of being just another "Daredevil owning Punisher" fight.
Originally posted by Nightstick
For those claiming that Daredevil won straight up, I feel the need to point out that The Punisher was still moving and as long as he is moving the fights not over.
Well considering that by time the little boy picked up the gun, Daredevil was ready to finish Castle. The boy had the gun pointed at DD to protect the Punisher. DD was standing and had Pubnisher by the throat on his knees.
Originally posted by Nightstick
I don't have the book handy, but after "DD won" didn't Castle manage to pick up his gone and shoot some intruders? Then their is the already mentioned incident in "Confederacy of Dunces" I think it was where The Punisher knocked Daredevil of a fire escape and landed on him or some such. As an aside that would be one of the instances where if Castle had wanted to shoot Murdock would have been hard pressed to dodge.
Punisher managed to pick up the gun and shoot the 2 intruders AFTER DD took out the first one with the shotgun which allowed Punisher to even go for the gun. If DD wasnt there Pun would have been dead. Like stated before, everyone has low showings. Every fight cant have DD totally dominating. Although he does get the majority over Frank most of the time.
Originally posted by Nightstick
While prep time has been mentioned it should be noted that Frank is a far better tactician then Murdock or at least from what I have seen and this is not just at the planing stage it is all the way through to a punch up. For those of you wondering it does make a difference not only does it allow the afore mentioned use of the environment, but also that the one with a plan will fight on his terms and pull his opponent into his kind of fight. It kind of like a wrestler going to ground with a boxer.
That one is hard to call. DD is a pretty good tactician depending whoes he going up against. Most of the time, Matt is outmanned AND outgunned. All he uses is 2 billy clubs to where Punisher may be outmanned, but his weapons usually make up for that. I do think Frank is a much better planner than Matt, but thats in the prep department. In battle, id have to sat DD is the better tactician.
Originally posted by Nightstick
Bloodlusted The Punisher is likely just to nuke the whole block and it'd still be a victory for him as his target was eliminated which means the op was a success. He is a soldier casualties ( even him ) are part of the deal.
I guess if killing himself along with his opponent counts as a win....
Personally, in 'Means and Ends,' I totally believe DD rocked the crap out of Punisher. In nearly every battle they've had, Punisher gets outclassed and at best, gets some good shots in or manages to get away. Punisher himself knows this. And what I mean by Punisher being able to surprise DD is that in a throw down fist-fight, he can distract DD, like how he started to take a romping in DD/Punisher #6 and then starts laughing in the middle of the fight.
And for all of DD's skills, like Castle says in the very first issue, "It doesn't matter. I can take it. I'm a rock."