Originally posted by Juntai
Just remember not to get too harsh with eachother. We read and debate comics because it's fun, something we like to do. Shouldn't try to press to make it something unpleasant.
ever the voice of reason, my friend. hopefully avy is not getting TOO po'd with me. this is just one of those (rare) cases where we see things differently. i wait for the time he changes my opinion. 🙂
I'd say the two characters play in the same ballpark, the difference is that Dominus isn't important to the cosmic balance as Galactus is.
Dominus is clearly up in range that he manipulated all of reality. There's a scan of Kismet saying it on the first page. He is also wanting to take her role as embodiment of the universe... giving the impression he is up with Eternity.
We all know Galactus and his roles.
It's kind of crazy that Supes was able to play in that league, but he's been portrayed as having the most indomidable will in the DCU period. Plus it's not the first time or the last time he's played in the ballpark of beings that most forum members don't believe he can.
i'm still not buying the whole kismet=eternity bit, though. she said she was everything in . . . wherever they were, but other minor cosmics can make the same claim.
there was something i forgot to raise in my previous post to avy: he said that if kismet dies the universe dies. but . . . isn't she presumed dead? 😕 killed in the whole imperiex fiasco? and wasn't it shown there that her power was less than imperiex in that arc? or am i not recalling the events correctly?
Originally posted by leonidasShe said she is everything, and obtaining her role would give him Godhood. Very much along the lines of when Thanos replaced Eternity temporarily in Marvel. He thought as much as Godhood.
i'm still not buying the whole kismet=eternity bit, though. she said she was everything in . . . wherever they were, but other minor cosmics can make the same claim.there was something i forgot to raise in my previous post to avy: he said that if kismet dies the universe dies. but . . . isn't she presumed dead? 😕 killed in the whole imperiex fiasco? and wasn't it shown there that her power was less than imperiex in that arc? or am i not recalling the events correctly?
I'm not sure if she is dead, or presumed as much, but I haven't read Worlds at War in a while. I certainly haven't seen her in some time however.
But Imperiex was portrayed in the same light as the final evolution of Galactus. When Galactus will revert the universe to nothingness and then next universe will spawn. So it wouldn't be surprising to think she couldn't stop him, as Eternity and Galactus will eventually do the same.
Consequently, Superman defeated him too. Albiet with a little help from Kismet. lol.
Originally posted by Juntai
She said she is everything, and obtaining her role would give him Godhood. Very much along the lines of when Thanos replaced Eternity temporarily in Marvel. He thought as much as Godhood.
Who are we to argue against that?
Also, in JLA/Avengers, which led into subsequent storyarcs in the DC Universe, portrayed the two as the same. Eternity and Kismet. And established her as the embodiment of the universe again.I'm not sure if she is dead, or presumed as much, but I haven't read Worlds at War in a while. I certainly haven't seen her in some time however.
But Imperiex was portrayed in the same light as the final evolution of Galactus. When Galactus will revert the universe to nothingness and then next universe will spawn. So it wouldn't be surprising to think she couldn't stop him, as Eternity and Galactus will eventually do the same.
Consequently, Superman defeated him too. Albiet with a little help from Kismet. lol.
i'm not arguing against what was said in the scan -- i'm arguing against its intent. 'godhood' is a a rather ambiguous term and applies to thor as well as eternity or above. with the exception of the xover there is no real evidence she=eternity, and the xover is . . . dubious at best. still, everything i've seen of her in the books that have "real relevence" (ie -- the superman books) indicates she is a lord of order (and if magical, wouldn't she have been eradicated by spectre? nabu claimed there were no more lords of order left . . .) and nothing more. she appears to be rather . . . dead (the xover was written well before it came out, so that could easily explain her posthumus appearance in it) and the universe seems to be fine (and what IS the dcu, anyway that one being could encompass it? does she encompasss all of hypertime as well? she says she can SEE all times and realities -- a far cry from REPRESENTING 'everything' . . .)
i've also not seen dominus manipulate reality WITHOUT screwing with an individual's mind, something i'm not at all sure he could do to galactus for any real length of time.
even just being a lord of order obviously grants dominus a high status. i just don't think it is anywhere near as cut and dried as avy thinks that he beats galactus and for now i still side with big g.
Originally posted by leonidasAnd even Eternity is not all consuming in the same sense as Kismet, unless you're trying to compare Multi-Eternity to Kismet, which is irrelivent to this either way as that's a farshot above Galactus. Regular Eternity as we most often see it is only the representation of it's given Universe.. Kismet is the same for the DCU.
i'm not arguing against what was said in the scan -- i'm arguing against its intent. 'godhood' is a a rather ambiguous term and applies to thor as well as eternity or above. with the exception of the xover there is no real evidence she=eternity, and the xover is . . . dubious at best. still, everything i've seen of her in the books that have "real relevence" (ie -- the superman books) indicates she is a lord of order (and if magical, wouldn't she have been eradicated by spectre? nabu claimed there were no more lords of order left . . .) and nothing more. she appears to be rather . . . dead (the xover was written well before it came out, so that could easily explain her posthumus appearance in it) and the universe seems to be fine (and what IS the dcu, anyway that one being could encompass it? does she encompasss all of hypertime as well? she says she can SEE all times and realities -- a far cry from REPRESENTING 'everything' . . .)i've also not seen dominus manipulate reality WITHOUT screwing with an individual's mind, something i'm not at all sure he could do to galactus for any real length of time.
even just being a lord of order obviously grants dominus a high status. i just don't think it is anywhere near as cut and dried as avy thinks that he beats galactus and for now i still side with big g.
Good reason for her being in the crossover.
Another good point about Day of Vengence too. I'll have to burst my brain on that one. Spectre was never shown killing her though.
In either case it doesn't change her role as it's been stated. She's important to the universe, she was born with it, as all lords of order and chaos, and each represent something. Hers happened to be the universe, Nabu's was Fate, and so on...
...and even if she had died, her mortality doesn't mean a lot in the thread, Galactus is not above dying either, and neither is Dominus. Not many characters truly are, just requires enough power.
Originally posted by Juntai
And even Eternity is not all consuming in the same sense as Kismet, unless you're trying to compare Multi-Eternity to Kismet, which is irrelivent to this either way as that's a farshot above Galactus. Regular Eternity as we most often see it is only the representation of it's given Universe.. Kismet is the same for the DCU.
regular eternity and infinity comprise the universe together, but the definition of a universe is open to interpretation. either way though, that's a fair bit off-topic -- though interesting. 🙂
Good reason for her being in the crossover.Another good point about Day of Vengence too. I'll have to burst my brain on that one. Spectre was never shown killing her though.
😂
thanks. i've no doubt you or avy will think of something . . .
In either case it doesn't change her role as it's been stated.
and to use a little used turn of phrase -- therein lies the rub! where has it been stated in a book that her role is to represent the universe? taht implies temporal and spatial representation. that implies if she dies the universe is without a life force. in marvel eternity IS the universe. she sounds like a lord of order given some sort of 'position' to represent the universe. representing in this sense is not the same as being 'one' with the universe like eternity is.
She's important to the universe, she was born with it, as all lords of order and chaos, and each represent something. Hers happened to be the universe, Nabu's was Fate, and so on...
that's actually pretty cool and something i didn't know, but nabu was not the dcu's 'embodiment' of fate. maybe destiny of the endless plays that role? would you say nabu and destiny are completely different 'types' of characters? too me one seems more . . . physical, while the other is a concept made manifest. does that make sense?
...and even if she had died, her mortality doesn't mean a lot in the thread, Galactus is not above dying either, and neither is Dominus. Not many characters truly are, just requires enough power.
fair enough. 🙂
for all our discussion though, jun, you still haven't said who you think would win. you say same class -- i can almost accept that given that a lord of order is a very powerful entity in and of itself -- so does that mean you think BOTH could score some wins over the other?
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
No, YOU want it to be PIS.Sorry. While the fight was a crappy one. Supes beats Thor.
And if you think Torquasm Vo is just a "mind game" then just do us all a favor and stop responding to this thread cause you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Then again, you thought that humans can perceive light speeds and that lighting is the speed of light.
The fight was PIS. If you can't percieve that, then your obviously more biased then I first thought.
From the proof you've provided that's all it appears to be. Superman basically puts his opponents in mental game where he's in total control. All this is from the little to no proof you provided though, so I may be wrong.
I was actually the one that stated humans cannot percieve light speeds, which they can't. Yes in a vacuum lightning indeed does travel at the speed of light. If I wasn't on my phone right now I'd explain this in more detail, something you've been unable to do with your version of T-vo.
You also forgot to answer my question addressing where you got this "Galactus got defeated by ships" theory.
BTW, the fact that you've resorted to insults says a lot about your argument.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
For all intents and purposes...Dominus is immune to physical attacks.
His body is powered by souls, he can alter it to whatever he wishes, and he can create out of nothing.
Ah, i see* athough i was intending it to be quesitning his durablility, but answered none the less 🙂
here are just a few things that were said about kismet as i did a little reading:
from what i have been able to figure, she was a lord of order who was then chosen to act as an intermediary for the lords of chaos AND order. she somehow helps certain special people to choose certain paths. that's why she she see down time lines and across realities -- she can see all the possible outcomes of the various choices people can make.
i'm sure she has great personal power (as do all lords of order and chaos) but her role is very different from the role played by eternity. her 'station' is an important one and a confusing one, but she strikes me more as a 'guradian' than a conceptual entity. and just because someone has a grand role, does not mean they have eternity-level power.
in my reading i have come to realize that dominus IS very powerful -- more powerful than i had thought at first -- but his powers are . . . hard to get a handle on. he takes thoughts and makes realities from them. this is something that MAY work on galactus, but i'm not sure for how long, nor am i sure dominus could steal the thoughts of a being like galactus who is more than capable of shielding his thoughts (like supes essentially did when he went into t-vo -- he only let dominus have the thoughts SUPES wanted him to have).
anyway, for all my reading, i still don't see dominus winning this, though i do think he could potentially cause g loads of headaches.
Originally posted by leonidasNabu is a Lord of Order wrapped in flesh, he manifested his physical self.
regular eternity and infinity comprise the universe together, but the definition of a universe is open to interpretation. either way though, that's a fair bit off-topic -- though interesting. 🙂😂
thanks. i've no doubt you or avy will think of something . . .
and to use a little used turn of phrase -- therein lies the rub! where has it been stated in a book that her role is to represent the universe? taht implies temporal and spatial representation. that implies if she dies the universe is without a life force. in marvel eternity IS the universe. she sounds like a lord of order given some sort of 'position' to represent the universe. representing in this sense is not the same as being 'one' with the universe like eternity is.
that's actually pretty cool and something i didn't know, but nabu was not the dcu's 'embodiment' of fate. maybe destiny of the endless plays that role? would you say nabu and destiny are completely different 'types' of characters? too me one seems more . . . physical, while the other is a concept made manifest. does that make sense?
fair enough. 🙂
for all our discussion though, jun, you still haven't said who you think would win. you say same class -- i can almost accept that given that a lord of order is a very powerful entity in and of itself -- so does that mean you think BOTH could score some wins over the other?
I'm not sure what the Endless would fall into, they don't reall do anything but once or twice a decade "guest apperances" in DC comics for a panel or two.
Originally posted by leonidasSounds good to me. I'm just here for the discussion, not the who can kick who's ass.
here are just a few things that were said about kismet as i did a little reading:from what i have been able to figure, she was a lord of order who was then chosen to act as an intermediary for the lords of chaos AND order. she somehow helps certain special people to choose certain paths. that's why she she see down time lines and across realities -- she can see all the possible outcomes of the various choices people can make.
i'm sure she has great personal power (as do all lords of order and chaos) but her role is very different from the role played by eternity. her 'station' is an important one and a confusing one, but she strikes me more as a 'guradian' than a conceptual entity. and just because someone has a grand role, does not mean they have eternity-level power.
in my reading i have come to realize that dominus IS very powerful -- more powerful than i had thought at first -- but his powers are . . . hard to get a handle on. he takes thoughts and makes realities from them. this is something that MAY work on galactus, but i'm not sure for how long, nor am i sure dominus could steal the thoughts of a being like galactus who is more than capable of shielding his thoughts (like supes essentially did when he went into t-vo -- he only let dominus have the thoughts SUPES wanted him to have).
anyway, for all my reading, i still don't see dominus winning this, though i do think he could potentially cause g loads of headaches.
Originally posted by Juntai
Sounds good to me. I'm just here for the discussion, not the who can kick who's ass.
ditto
good points on both ends
although from reading both, it would seem galactus has a greater spectrum/power source from wich to draw from, and perhaps a beter defense against potential mental harm
with that in mind, biases aside, ide be entitled to believe galactus would emerge victorius
Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
dittogood points on both ends
although from reading both, it would seem galactus has a greater spectrum/power source from wich to draw from, and perhaps a beter defense against potential mental harm
with that in mind, biases aside, ide be entitled to believe galactus would emerge victorius
Originally posted by Juntai
Sounds good to me. I'm just here for the discussion, not the who can kick who's ass.
👆
that's usually why i get into these things too. 😄 it's actually nice to have a civil discussion/debate for a change where people are actually able to listen, learn and MAYBE consider an alternate point of view. it happens too infrequently on the forum.
Originally posted by leonidas
you see this is where you lose me. where has it been said anywhere that she is 'eternity'? she's a lord of order. you may [b]speculate she's above that station (why though, what makes you think that?) but as far as has been stated anywhere, she's a lord of order, and hence, below nabu, most powerful of the lords of order.[/B]
Nabu only stated he was the most powerful Lord of Order BUT he only included the mentioned LOO from that arc. Shazam, Himself, Phantom Stranger, and Zeus (who left the universe.)
Nabu is not more powerful than the embodiment of the universe.
Originally posted by leonidas
and where do you get he's his own universe? when he took a physical body wasn't he smashed or the souls released or something?
Nope. He's been shown as a manifestation of his own universe, and able to create alternate realities. Problem is, he HAS to kill Kismet to become the center of HER reality.
He's also pretty immune to physical attacks...which are Galan's forte'.
And she is the sum of reality. She's as important if not more important that Galactus.
Originally posted by leonidas
didn't he see that lena luthor chick as lex at one point i the 2999 arc? that was before kismet the situation. and again, the reality was only in supes' mind. you cannot possibly assume that just because superman couldn't see through it, doesn't mean galactus couldn't or wouldn't.
With Kismets help... she was going around as that white haired little girl or other forms.
Originally posted by leonidas
his power was limited, below universal certainly since he couldn't just unwrite kismet. i still see no proof that kismet=eternity, so it seems based on what we know she is below nabu in power level which would be well below eternity, no?
Galactus power is even MORE limited. He run's low on energy fairly quickly as well. As soon as he feeds on a planet, he need to start looking for another one. Now imagine in a battle with a being even as powerful as a Lord of Order? He's going to be using up power fairly quick. Especially against one who can warp the very reality around him. Galactus is STILL a prisoner to reality. That's cut and dry. Dominus could go to a time where Galan is weak and kill him effortlessly. Make a UN. Make Tenebrous appear. Make cosmic power shiphoning machines. Turn galactus own ship against him.
The possibilities are ENDLESS.
Originally posted by leonidas
he did? resetting a universe is less plausible than resetting the whole multiverse? regardless, even taking his interpretation as truth the UN does not alter reality in the way we've been talking about . . .
Fair enough. If you have proof to the contrary, I'd LOVE to see it.
Originally posted by leonidas
fair enough, but that's the crux of it -- WHEN has he NOT used 'illusions' or created a reality specifically in the MIND of an opponent? he couldn't do it to kismet so he has a limit. again -- because he can screw with supes mentally does not mean he can screw with someone on g's level. you have only superman as a basis of comparison -- it's not enough to jump to the conlusion you're making, imo.
Eternity/Kismet > Galactus. Once again, it is stated on panel that those four realities were REAL. Superman was STILL in Kismets reality during the time as well. The linear men found him powerful enough to get involved...and those guys RARELY get involved.
Originally posted by leonidas
when did he TRULY (ie -- not in the mind of an opponent) alter the universe? others could perceive supes and knew he was acting oddly. and didn't lois help break the illusions he was under as well?
When Kismet said he did. It's on panel. He made four realities for SUPERMAN because he wanted to draw Kismet out. Kismet still said he warped ALL OF TIME AND SPACE to do it. It wasn't in Superman's mind.
Originally posted by leonidas
where do you get she IS? everyting i've read on her says she's a lord of order, illuminator of realities (whatever that means), but nothing about being the representation of the universe. if you can show proof she is, i'll gladly concede you the debate. 🙂
She's the anchor to reality. She goes...reality goes.
:
Originally posted by leonidas
confused:no he didn't. aegis's sneak attack is what beat him, and earlier in the universe, he apparently defeated BOTH of them and trapped them in the kyln.
Maybe this is a later issue. I stopped reading ahnnihalation.
Originally posted by leonidas
possibly, but he's below kismet who is below nabu, it doesn't seem likely to me . . .
By your interpretation. Galan is not all that high in the cosmic scheme either. He's less powerful than your average celestial.
Originally posted by leonidas
because if they were ACTUAL 'other realities', others in OUR universe wouldn't have perceived him acting oddly. they would EVERYONE would have been included in the alteration. they were not. that leads me to beleive it was only supes PERSONAL realities that were altered. a trick there is no guarantee could work on someone as powerful as galactus.
Again. He was still in our universe. He was ALSO in 4 other realities that were physically CREATED. All was explained in that 1st scan I posted.
Galan is still limited to time and space and MANY physical weapons and his energy levels.
Even if you don't agree with me at least you can say it would be a hell of a battle for galan.
