its nothing more than a barbaric spectacle and will accomplish nothing.
its revenge, pure and simple, as justice has already been carried out the second
he was taken out of power. thats why i submit the woodchipper plan. may as well given the current mindset. throw in some pizzaz
however i cannot feel any animosity toward the people of iraq who were so terribly effected by his regime (and later, ours). what confuses me is the bloodlust of the western world, who are and always were completely unaffected by his rule, and never gave a shit about what he did while in power, with the help of u.s. chemical weapons. im confused...cant help it...is this...like....a 9/11 thing?
Originally posted by lil bitchiness'Saddam Hussein receives death sentence [look how much we've accomplished in Iraq]'
And what exactly will execution achieve? I mean apart from spawning another few hundred Saddam Husseins or so.
Makes a far better headline to parade in the run up to a poll than:
'Saddam Hussein [the reason the Administration fabricated a case for war and even so a flimsy one, to illegally invade another country and turn it into a quagmire which is really no better than before just a different] is sentenced to life imprisonment [before the verdict of this trial has actually been officially announced, or he's been tried for other charges still pending].'
Not that it helped much.
Originally posted by Syren
What course of action would you take?
The one which does not promote punishment by death. I would also deem not in position, assuming I was America or any other country, to pass a death sentance to a leader of another country.
He was to be left to his people, and they should decide his faith. Pol Pot died under house arrest. And possibly killed more people than Saddam.
Trust me, when a forgein country intervenes to solve ''problems'' of another country, people become very patriotic and with that resentful. I promise you, execution of Saddam will make his enemies admire him, and people who otherwise did not care for Saddam, like him.
Everyone protects what is theirs, even if it is bad.
Why is it so hard to get hold of ''war criminals''? Because no country will hand the war criminals over. The people do not want to hand them over.
To think Iraqi's will rejoice at Saddam's death is naive.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And what exactly will execution achieve? I mean apart from spawning another few hundred Saddam Husseins or so.
Seriously this type of mentality is stale and self defeating.
No matter what is done to Saddam there will be a battle cry from some group to do something about it.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The one which does not promote punishment by death. I would also deem not in position, assuming I was America or any other country, to pass a death sentance to a leader of another country.He was to be left to his people, and they should decide his faith. Pol Pot died under house arrest. And possibly killed more people than Saddam.
Trust me, when a forgein country intervenes to solve ''problems'' of another country, people become very patriotic and with that resentful. I promise you, execution of Saddam will make his enemies admire him, and people who otherwise did not care for Saddam, like him.
Everyone protects what is theirs, even if it is bad.
Why is it so hard to get hold of ''war criminals''? Because no country will hand the war criminals over. The people do not want to hand them over.
To think Iraqi's will rejoice at Saddam's death is naive.
Thanks for that, you've elaborated really well. I agree with you but I can't help feeling some satisfaction that he's going to be put to death. That may well make me a bad person in someone else's eyes but, to be honest, I can't change the way I feel.
From a political standpoint you're almost certainly right in what you're saying 😬
Originally posted by PVS
its nothing more than a barbaric spectacle and will accomplish nothing.
its revenge, pure and simple, as justice has already been carried out the second
he was taken out of power. thats why i submit the woodchipper plan. may as well given the current mindset. throw in some pizzazhowever i cannot feel any animosity toward the people of iraq who were so terribly effected by his regime (and later, ours). what confuses me is the bloodlust of the western world, who are and always were completely unaffected by his rule, and never gave a shit about what he did while in power, with the help of u.s. chemical weapons. im confused...cant help it...is this...like....a 9/11 thing?
If killing him will accomplish nothing, what are the options... Let him go or life in prison... What will either of those accomplish?
I really have no idea of what "bloodlust" you are talking about, in fact, it is quit the opposite, you would think the people that either want him dead or are pro-capital punishment would be cheering more. They aren't, this is basically just another convicted mass murderer sentenced to die. Look at the media coverage so far, people are just not that interested.
I get the impression and I really hope I am wrong here, but in your eyes America can do no right. We were bastards when we looked the other way to Saddam's methods and now we're bastards when we did/tried to do something about it.
Originally posted by Robtard
I really have no idea of what "bloodlust" you are talking about,
then you ignore public sentiment, and that of the media...and apparently have not been reading posts in this thread, including your own
you are celebrating the killing of a human being. that is simple fact.
i find that sadistic and disturbing since he never effected your life in any way.
and dont turn on your spin machine and make this out as me defending a murderous dictator...as well as accusing me of hating my own country....uh oh...too late
Originally posted by Robtard
I get the impression and [b]I really hope I am wrong here, but in your eyes America can do no right. We were bastards when we looked the other way to Saddam's methods and now we're bastards when we did/tried to do something about it. [/B]
if your going to strawman bash, claiming that i hate america based only on my opinion of a war of false pretense and my opposing the death penalty, then do it with style and spare me your feigned good intentions.
Originally posted by PVS
then you ignore public sentiment, and that of the media...and apparently have not been reading posts in this thread, including your ownyou are celebrating the killing of a human being. that is simple fact.
i find that sadistic and disturbing since he never effected your life in any way.
and dont turn on your spin machine and make this out as me defending a murderous dictator...as well as accusing me of hating my own country....uh oh...too lateoh, you hope not, do you?
if your going to strawman bash, claiming that i hate america based only on my opinion of a war of false pretense and my opposing the death penalty, then do it with style and spare me your feigned good intentions.
You ignored my first question...
Considering it is Saddam Hussein and this trial has been going on for some time, the response in general over his sentencing has not been spectacular. A few people in this forum discussing it is irrelevant considering the big picture.
Talk about "spin machine", I am not rejoining that Saddam is being killed, I am mostly indifferent. He was convicted of multiple murders and was sentenced. If his appeals go through or the Iraqi's simply decide to jail him for life, then so be it, I would not be crying for blood if Saddam was sentenced to life.
Stop acting the clown, I did not claim you hate America. What I do see from you is a constant 'lose-lose' style. You're upset that America turned a blind eye to Saddam for years right? But you're also upset America took him down. So I am asking you, what would you do 'in the now'?
As far as you opposing the death penalty, that is fine, I do not hold that as a negative against you or anyone. If someone is able to be against the death penalty even if the murderer in question killed someone they love, more power to them. I've said this before... On the otherhand, you compared me to a murder (mind set) for being for capital punishment.
i got your post confused with another celebratory post. my apologies.
yet you cannot ignore the sentiments expressed by kmc's 'post and run' style members
however:
Originally posted by Robtard
I get the impression and I really hope I am wrong here, but in your eyes America can do no right. We were bastards when we looked the other way to Saddam's methods and now we're bastards when we did/tried to do something about it.
that is bullshit. you are dancing again to manipulate the discussion and 'clown' your opponent. its a ridiculous tactic. stop trying to oversimplify the course of events leading to and after the taking of bagdhad to demonise anyone who disagrees. i was against an war based on lies, and against the supply of wmd's to iraq by the u.s. under reagan/bush sr. that, sir is fact.
look its obvious you just want to seem 100% right by distorting the facts and by bashing the strawman, so lets just end this. there, i had my last jab. go on and have yours
Apology accepted, no worries... Agreed, 'post and runners' irk me too. It is best to ignore and not waste your time, but that is easier to say than do.
I am not dancing nor trying to clown you, I reserve "clowning" people to the ones that post shit like "I'm right because the Bible says so you f@g!" and I clarified it above.
my only issue is that you clump points together to make them seem nonsensical.
the implication that i somehow wanted hussein to go on brutilizing his people or wanted us to go to war (black/white/false) and then want to protect him just to spite america is insulting and warrants my contempt. if you want to get a civil reaction in a debate i would suggest not using such a tactic. im all for a good jab, but lets keep it honest, thats all
:edit: and f.y.i. i was never in favor of "team america world police", never wanted us to just charge into iraq and play 'god of democracy' and have always felt that human rights/crimes against humanity should be left to the UN.
Originally posted by Robtard
I get the impression and I really hope I am wrong here, but in your eyes America can do no right. We were bastards when we looked the other way to Saddam's methods and now we're bastards when we did/tried to do something about it.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Being an American, there is no really good way to respond to this thread. If you even hint that america has brough some or all of this on itself, you're labelled an America-hating Liberal. If you denounce every person who decries America on the world scene, you're labelled a conservative, sound-bite whore. The truth is really in the middle. Every person on these foums has an opinion on America and it's place in world politics. Some of those opinions are valid and some are not.
Originally posted by PVS
my only issue is that you clump points together to make them seem nonsensical.the implication that i somehow wanted hussein to go on brutilizing his people or wanted us to go to war (black/white/false) and then want to protect him just to spite america is insulting and warrants my contempt. if you want to get a civil reaction in a debate i would suggest not using such a tactic. im all for a good jab, but lets keep it honest, thats all
If I had said that or even thought it, I would warrant your contempt, but I did not nor do I think it. My problem is the 'lose-lose' mentality, we can't build a time machine and change what has happened. So instead of dumping and re-dumping, think of something that can be done now to change things for the better. This goes for anything.
Speaking on the topic of the Iraq War, I was not for it. Saddam was/is a piece of shit, but he did keep that region under control (yes with brutal methods) but he could be compromised with when needed and I would be an ass if I didn't say I had the benefit of 20/20 hindsight now.
But America went in and took him out, it was poorly planned (150K troops compared to the 500k Bush Sr. went in with in Desert Storm) and because of that poor planning and special interest laden policies coupled with corruption; we have the mess we have now. But instead of just saying America was in the wrong for going in the first place as an answer/solution to current events, I try to make the best of a bad situation and think of something that will possibly make a change for the better.
[edit]... On a positive note, the Senate is almost ours(democrats)
Originally posted by Robtard
I get the impression and I really hope I am wrong here, but in your eyes America can do no right. We were bastards when we looked the other way to Saddam's methods and now we're bastards when we did/tried to do something about it.
I see your point in relation to this whole argument. However, no one agrues weather removing Saddam was a good thing. However, it may not have been the right thing and it may not have been done the right way. I think everyone is happy that he is out of power.
The US has a legacy of supporting crappy leaders. That needs to stop forever.
Originally posted by Robtard
Saddam is an Iraqi citizen being punished in Iraq, so I am not sure what your reference to Tuong Nguyen of Australia being hung in Singapore is?Not exactly sure off the top of my head...
[edit]
I could be wrong, but the outrage of "not being more like America" in Australia was because drug trafficing is not punishable by C.P. in America. If an American commits a crime in another country that is not punishable by death in the U.S. but receives a death sentence, I believe America would pressure that country for clemency.
No, the point I am getting at, in a round about way is this - the popular refrain from one side of this debate is "so what, the use should impose its will on another nation for something they themselves allow."
Now the point I am getting at is - how exactly is this different from the things it does in the past in the area? The relevance of the Australian case is the fact people pointed out the lengths the US goes to to insure its own citizens do not receive such serious sentences - regardless of the crime. People even point out the US unwillingness to commit to law courts that might find against their citizens. The essays done at the time compared Australia's response (some political pleas for clemency) in relation to how other nations respond to their citizens being sentenced to death.
Thus we see that the US, as well as many western nations, have a history of trying to influence the legislative decisions of other nations. Why it would be so odd for the US to have put some pressure on Iraq to scrap the death penalty or avoid using it is unknown to me - as it wouldn't be so unusual. Hypocritical? Perhaps, but since when has a nation let that stop them?