Flaws with God. · Religion Forum

Trickster True KMC Jester

Flaws with God.

Or, more correctly, the flaws I can see with believing in a God. I'm not going to embellish here, but these are some of the flaws I see in believing in God (meaning the God of Classical Theism):

1. Evolution.
2. Evil and suffering. Why would an all-loving God create a world where his 'children' are often subjected to pain? Before anybody mentions the fall from the garden of eden, an all-knowing God would have known this was going to occur, and planned accordingly.
3. The Bible. Two major points here - the fall from Eden. If Adam and Eve hadn't yet eaten from the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil', then how can God hold them to account for doing so, since they obviously weren't aware what they were doing was wrong? Also, the sheer vindictiveness of God in the Old Testament astounds me.
4. Why would God want or need to create the world? If he really is infinite (in every sense of the word), then there would be no reason for him to create the world.
5. What did God do before creating the world, and what will he do afterwards?

I'm sure more will come to me, and if they do I'll post them up.

Oh, finally:

6. I see no reason to believe in God, especially the God of any particular religion. If I was to believe, I'd determine my own concept of a God, not let someone else tell me what to believe in.

Bardock42 Junior Member

Did you change the thread title?

Trickster True KMC Jester

Yeah, I did. I was trying to get across the purpose of the thread, and the first title sounded a bit convoluted.

§P0oONY Senior Member

And now I'm curious as to what the title was prior. hmm

A lot of your points simply stem from the way in which people read The Bible. People take everything said word for word and believe it, without even questioning it.

Trickster True KMC Jester

So, to you, which of these three don't apply to God:
Benevolent (all-loving), omnipotent (all-powerful), or omniscient (all-knowning)?

If they all apply, then points 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 still stand.

§P0oONY Senior Member

Not what I was saying Trick. I agree with your post, I was just saying that interpratation is what causes the problems, as you said yourself in the 1st paragraph "Or, more correctly, the flaws I can see with believing in a God."...

lil bitchiness -

Originally posted by Trickster
Or, more correctly, the flaws I can see with believing in a God. I'm not going to embellish here, but these are some of the flaws I see in believing in God (meaning the God of Classical Theism):
1. Evolution.
2. Evil and suffering. Why would an all-loving God create a world where his 'children' are often subjected to pain? Before anybody mentions the fall from the garden of eden, an all-knowing God would have known this was going to occur, and planned accordingly.
3. The Bible. Two major points here - the fall from Eden. If Adam and Eve hadn't yet eaten from the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil', then how can God hold them to account for doing so, since they obviously weren't aware what they were doing was wrong? Also, the sheer vindictiveness of God in the Old Testament astounds me.
4. Why would God want or need to create the world? If he really is infinite (in every sense of the word), then there would be no reason for him to create the world.
5. What did God do before creating the world, and what will he do afterwards?
I'm sure more will come to me, and if they do I'll post them up.
Oh, finally:
6. I see no reason to believe in God, especially the God of any particular religion. If I was to believe, I'd determine my own concept of a God, not let someone else tell me what to believe in.

Since when was God limited to the Bible, and how exactly is ''bible'' problem with God?

Bardock42 Junior Member

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Since when was God limited to the Bible, and how exactly is ''bible'' problem with God?

Well, when talking about the God of the Bible some might say it is limited to that.

Trickster True KMC Jester

Perhaps you missed the term 'God of Classical Theism'? Since that expressly means a God based on Holy Scripture, the Bible would indeed be the source for any discussion of this God.

I'm aware I missed off the Qu'ran and Torah, but assume they are included. As for why the Bible is a problem, perhaps you can give me a satisfactory answer to my question on the Fall? There are other problems I have with the Bible, but I was trying to keep my post succinct

Imperial_Samura Anticrust Smurf

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Since when was God limited to the Bible, and how exactly is ''bible'' problem with God?

Well, the Christians (or alternatively Muslims of Jews) claim their God is the one and only - and the Holy Text of that religion is the pinnacle of Divine Interaction - the teachings as it were of the God itself.

Thus the Bible is a problem when one approaches the monotheistic Abrahamic deity for many reasons, including the ones listed. For some to believe in the God the Bible describes... well, many find problems with believing in the Biblical one - be it for theodicy (the question of good and evil) which is has always been a big question. An all good, all powerful God, ruling over a world were suffering and "evil" are commonplace.

DigiMark007 Forum Leader

I'm probably on your side in this debate Trickster, but there's at least 3-4 things on your list there that could easily be shot down by most rational theologians (not just of Christianity, but various religions).

That said, I agree that there's flaws with the mainstream conception of "God" (at least in the Western sense of the word), but your execution of the matter leaves a bit to be desired.

Besides, why attack a God you don't think exists? I try to extend understanding to others that I don't agree with....while saving my attacks for the negativity, racism, ignorance, hatred, and other undesirables that know no bounds of religion.

Trickster True KMC Jester

I'm not attacking any God - I'm just putting up the reasons I have for being cynical of such a God existing. It's a subject I'm interested in.

I imagine 1, 3 and 6 are the ones you're referring to, but I still think they are relevant points.

DigiMark007 Forum Leader

Originally posted by Trickster
I imagine 1, 3 and 6 are the ones you're referring to, but I still think they are relevant points.

...also 2, but yeah.

But hey, an opinion is an opinion. I'm glad you're at least getting yours out there.

Trickster True KMC Jester

Cheers.

I'd definitely like to see a theologian explain away 2 without raising more flaws.

§P0oONY Senior Member

All-loving... Which means he loves everything... Including evil and suffering?

Trickster True KMC Jester

Well, more that he loves all people. If he loves everybody, then why does he let some people suffer?

§P0oONY Senior Member

Because he doesn't exist... hmm

Regret One Among Many

Re: Flaws with God.

Originally posted by Trickster
Or, more correctly, the flaws I can see with believing in a God. I'm not going to embellish here, but these are some of the flaws I see in believing in God (meaning the God of Classical Theism):
1. Evolution.

I do not see how this threatens the concept, unless of course one believes creation is limited to some method that cannot include evolution. Most intelligent believers in God should have no issue with the possible truth of evolution.

Originally posted by Trickster
2. Evil and suffering. Why would an all-loving God create a world where his 'children' are often subjected to pain? Before anybody mentions the fall from the garden of eden, an all-knowing God would have known this was going to occur, and planned accordingly.

Evil is a product of erroneous use of freedom. Punishment prior to action would be unjust. As for naturally occuring suffering, I don't know. Perhaps chaos theory would predict that following thousands of years of free action man would have screwed the world up to the point that such would be a predictable result. There is little reference to naturally occurring suffering in the Bible prior to the flood, this is plenty of time to have begun a cycle that would lead to increased suffering.
Such a statement assumes that these are somehow God's fault. I find them amusing as in the same breath one would probably attack God as vindictive if he interfered with the "freedom" of man.

Originally posted by Trickster
3. The Bible. Two major points here - the fall from Eden. If Adam and Eve hadn't yet eaten from the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil', then how can God hold them to account for doing so, since they obviously weren't aware what they were doing was wrong? Also, the sheer vindictiveness of God in the Old Testament astounds me.

It is not vindictive since God did give Adam and Eve the knowledge that an undesirable consequence would follow the transgression.

Originally posted by Trickster
4. Why would God want or need to create the world? If he really is infinite (in every sense of the word), then there would be no reason for him to create the world.

I think this comes from erroneous theological philosophies contrived by men. I think this is a valid question to ask most Christians, as for them God didn't need to do it. Mormons believe God did it because it is in his nature to create, and as such, creation is an eternal thing that God will continue to do. We are not the only world God has created, and we are probably not the first or last world he will create.

Originally posted by Trickster
5. What did God do before creating the world, and what will he do afterwards?

Another valid question for most Christians. Mormons believe he continues creating, as stated in response to #4. Joy and rejoicing in one's posterity.

Originally posted by Trickster
I'm sure more will come to me, and if they do I'll post them up.
Oh, finally:
6. I see no reason to believe in God, especially the God of any particular religion. If I was to believe, I'd determine my own concept of a God, not let someone else tell me what to believe in.

If there is a God, probability would state that he has manifested himself at some point. People are funny, they believe if there is a God that it should conform to what they believe God should be. Such is irrational, perspective is insufficient to know the impact of what we consider would be good and what we would consider evil, and our limited perspective cannot judge actions that impact millennia.

finti Senior Member

Flaws with God.

people made gods so..........

DigiMark007 Forum Leader

The idea that a "good" God allows "evil" to exist is a polarized view of the world.

In many traditions, the two don't exist. They're the same thing, and it's a matter of perception and levels of consciousness.

Christianity also has myths that speak to this theme, though they have gotten far, far away from them by emphasizing ideas of God=good and Satan=bad. An unecessary, and damaging duality-driven way of looking at the world.