Originally posted by kamikz
No, nononononono and no. Maul was TOYING Obi, he had no problems. Obi got one lucky strike at him because he surprised him, but that's it, except if you belive TPM Obi-Wan is above Qui-Gon Jinn, who got his ass handed to him by Maul, actually, both at once. Had that hole not been there, Obi would lie flat on the ground and had lost his saber, and all that flipping Maul did was necessary to the fight itself, or to show off?
Read the novelisation, it's all in there. Maul was NOT struggling.And Grievous did become weaker as of ROTS, he got wounded (hence the coughing), Lucas stated himself that he wanted to change the idea from Grievous being a killing machine to instead being a general and a coward, so he had him wounded.
In saber skills I would have to say that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were about equal in TPM. And Maul had to separate the two in order to stand a chance. By your logic that would mean Count Dooku is better then Anakin because he managed to take on him and defeated Obi-Wan at the same time.
Here some pictures:
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l61/esb1138/PHANTOM_MENACE-02hr01min40sec.jpg
This is Maul getting his saber sliced in two. Man Maul was really beating down Obi-Wan huh?
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l61/esb1138/PHANTOM_MENACE-02hr01min43sec.jpg
Look! Now Maul is running from Obi-Wan because he couldn't handle the power of Obi-Wan.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l61/esb1138/PHANTOM_MENACE-02hr01min45sec.jpg
You can tell just by looking at Maul that he isn't toying with Obi-Wan but giving it his all.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l61/esb1138/PHANTOM_MENACE-02hr02min00sec.jpg
Again, you can tell just by looking at Maul that he had to give it his all to push by Obi-Wan's attack.
And about Grievous; I would like to see where you heard Lucas wanting him to get weaker. Dooku WTFpwned him like a rag doll in their training session so you are to tell me that Anakin would have a hard time?
I agree with kamikz.
As you know, Maul was able to handle both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan with not much difficulty. Besides getting slapped, Maul more or less was confortably fighting the duo. Maul kept retreating but you see being able to block all of Jinn's & Kenobi's attacks. And he didn't seperate the duo. Qui-Gon went ahead and then the security lasers came on. Still Maul would have killed the duo in the pit area anyway. He just first owned Jinn.
When Qui-Gon 'revitalized' himself, Maul pwned him in less than a minute. Impressive. Now Maul was SUPRISED by Kenobi. He expected Obi-Wan to fight lesser than Jinn, because he is the Padawan. This is why you see Maul with a smug expression. However, Kenobi immerses in the Dark and is able to use his emotions to fuel his skill. This makes him cut Maul's saber.
However, afterwards, you see Maul getting his act together. He is able to do these flips. In that picture ESB, you see in the movie Kenobi jumping onto Maul with the saber. Obviously he's going to wince a little bit. Yet with a simple Force Push (notice most Jedi reer back their hands or do something likewise to indicate a powerful Force Push, but Maul didn't) threw Kenobi down the pit.
If there wasn't a pit, Kenobi would have been defeated.
Originally posted by ESB -1138
In saber skills I would have to say that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were about equal in TPM.
Well, then looks like Darth Maul > Obi-Wan in lightsaber skills, and by a fair margin considering the thirty seconds it took to wipe the floor with Qui-Gon, who was described as "fighting with a ferocity not seen before", and had a new reserve of strength.
And may I remind you that Darth Maul is described as being better than Qui-Gon, in regards to dueling:
"But on this day, he had met his match. The Sith Lord he battled with Obi - Wan was more than his equal in weapons training."
And Maul had to separate the two in order to stand a chance.
Did he? Prove it. "To stand a chance"? What utter bullshit. Even watching the movie it's apparent that Maul was tooling both of them. From tossing them around like ragdolls with sheer physical strength to kicking them all over the place.
But, from the novelizaton:
"Their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate."
---
"His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense.
---
So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly discovered that their best efforts were not good enough..." (The Phantom Menace novelization).
I'd consider not given what's above and displayed in the movies. He did not need to seperate them to "stand a chance". He almost killed Obi-Wan on the platforms, anyways.
By your logic that would mean Count Dooku is better then Anakin because he managed to take on him and defeated Obi-Wan at the same time.
No.
The events surrounding the RotS duel were different from what we see in TPM. Anakin really is superior to Count Dooku in lightsaber dueling, neither Obi-Wan nor Qui-Gon are superior to Darth Maul, the opposite actually (inferior).
This is Maul getting his saber sliced in two. Man Maul was really beating down Obi-Wan huh?
While at this point he was not, he actually had a reason not to be. He was surprised and caught completely off guard that a Jedi padawan would summon the Darkside (which gives more apparent power, rather unleashes it) to fuel his energies:
"The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault."
Look! Now Maul is running from Obi-Wan because he couldn't handle the power of Obi-Wan.
What twisted logic. If you would state this, then Darth Maul couldn't handle Qui-Gon's power because he ran back towards the melting pit (likewise, he also moved out of the Hangar bay, even though he was easily beating the ever living shit out of both). It was nothing more than a strategic move as part of his apparent displays of dueling. He constantly reverts to acrobatics, and needed room. He couldn't exactly fight Obi-Wan with his back turned could he when already in a vulnerable position? No. No one could. Notice a yard after, he returns to the offensive. Did Obi-Wan's "power" decrease that much in the two seconds it took to turn around? So much that he [Obi-Wan] caught a finely placed boot to the face afterwards.
"The power of Obi-Wan"? If I may:
"But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down."
Darth Maul > Obi-Wan. Period. Discussion matters not as Maul is his superior by a nice margin on paper (all that matters).
Originally posted by AdventWhile at this point he was not, he actually had a reason not to be. He was surprised and caught completely off guard that a Jedi padawan would summon the [b]Darkside
(which gives more apparent power, rather unleashes it) to fuel his energies:"The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault."
[/B]
Obi-Wan diden't utilise the Dark side in that fight...he used fury.
(In MA world Fury=Tapped rage.)
Just focused emotion, but not evil, and not hate.
Focused determination. 😛
Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
Obi-Wan diden't utilise the Dark side in that fight...he used fury.(In MA world Fury=Tapped rage.)
Just focused emotion, but not evil, and not hate
And what do you think "fury" is? He had a brush with the Darkside through his actions:
"Kenobi, enraged, attacked Maul. This barrage was deflected by Maul who used Obi-Wan's touching of the dark side as a conduit for a Force attack; using the Force, Maul pushed Obi-Wan into a deep mining pit."
-- Star Wars databank, Darth Maul.
Anger, and rage are the Darkside, at least in the manner Obi-Wan had used them in TPM (see: RotJ where Luke does the same).
In addition, if you've heard the audio commentary on TPM during that scene, there is a comment that Obi-Wan was "blinded by his rage", and was indeed, using the Darkside (not knowingly, however. Acting upon his emotions). My choice of words, however, "summon" seem to have been a bad choice, but the point remains that Obi-Wan unleashes his emotions, and had a brush with the Darkside, hence catching Maul off guard since he was attacking so frantically.
i mean really, if not wanting your mom to die is a path to the darkside, you don't think fury and/or rage is the darkside??
"Brushing your teeth up and down, a path to the darkside this is...brushing in circles for a Jedi, is a must." Everything is a path to the darkside...but no, as Advent pointed out, he tapped into the dark side, before getting lucky and killing Maul.
"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."
Originally posted by ESB -1138
CW Grievous and ROTS Grievous are the same. The cartoons overpower everyone.For example let's use Yoda. In AOTC Yoda struggled to keep up a falling column that would have crushed Anakin and Obi-Wan. In ROTS Yoda struggled to stop 1 senate pod and threw it back up.
Now in the cartoon Yoda pushes three droid transports back into the lander, has the lander close, lifts the land, and forces another one to crash into it. Also in the cartoon Yoda lifts hundreds of destroyer droids in the way of Vulture droids.
Need I go on? The cartoon overpowers everyone. Anakin will and can WTFpwn any form of Grievous as easy (or easier) then Obi-Wan did.
I realize that the cartoons overpower everyone, but do you think that the Grievous we see in Return of the Sith can take on Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Aayla Secura, K'Khruk, and Sier Tarr (is that his name?). None of them seemed particularly overpowered in the cartoons.
The cough would have (somehow) made Grievous considerably less powerful.
In AOTC and ROTS, he seems to struggle with things that are falling at him, yes. However, I'm pretty confident that re-directing something that is moving at you slowly is easier than fighting gravity. In ESB, Yoda manages to lift up that X-Wing without raising a hand.
According to the ROTS novelization, Obi-Wan's fighting style was a major factor in winning. Without a doubt, Anakin could take on Grievous. Djem So is built off of Soresou, but it's not as centered on defense as Soresou. Anakin may or may not be able to block (according to the novel) 32 blows per minute.
