Ki Adi Mundi vs Plo Koon vs Kit Fisto vs Qui Gon Jinn

Originally posted by darthsith19
Oh, okay, maybe Dooku didn't say that, I think I was mistaking it with what his lightsaber instructor thaught about him. The Jedi lightsaber master who taught Qui-Gon had considered him the best lightsaber duelist he had seen in over 400 years of teaching in the Jedi Order.

1) If the statement was referring to Dooku, it is retconned by the fact that Dooku's master was Yoda, who was eight hundred years- old, tops, not four.

2) If the statement was referring to Qui-Gon, it is retconned by the fact that Qui-Gon's master was Dooku, who was seventy years old, tops, not four hundred.

3) Even if it wasn't retconned, the statement would mean that Dooku was 400+ years-old himself, and was surpassed in swordsmanship by Qui-Gon.

That quote just doesn't work.

I have no doubt at the time of CD Kit > Kenobi. Maybe I do need to read the book again but I remember Kit going down after a short fight (yes, it was pretty even, but he went down soon in the fight) and I don't remember Kenobi doing that badly.

That means Kit + four other Jedi at once might have been able to defeat Grievous. No surprises there.

And Shaak Ti took on dozens of Magnaguards at once. So what?

And for future reference, Shaak Ti - for all her skill - was one of seven Jedi crushed by Grievous on Hypori, alongside Ki-Adi-Mundi and K'Kruhk. So it can be assumed that Kit outclasses her by a bit.

It was retconned, I think, as it said "the Jedi who trained Qui-Gon said that he was the very best he'd seen in his four hundred years in the order."

I think that's word for word.

1) If the statement was referring to Dooku, it is retconned by the fact that Dooku's master was Yoda, who was eight hundred years- old, tops, not four.

3) Even if it wasn't retconned, the statement would mean that Dooku was 400+ years-old himself, and was surpassed in swordsmanship by Qui-Gon.

I have it, should I need to check it, and the fight wasn't short by any means.

Kenobi's, on the other hand, lasted as long as it did only because of Fisto's intervention: as soon as Obi-Wan leapt up to combat Ventress, she feinted and kicked him to the ground, then proceeded to attack him while he was on his back. He was getting pwned.

No, that means if there had been any Jedi of Kit's or Mace's calibre, Grievous probably would have failed. And you seem to think that those four Jedi put up a fight - they were slaughtered in seconds, all of them, hence Grievous's observation.

LoE and the CWC are two different explanations for the events of the same time period, so assuming we can pick and choose, Kit can hurl balls of water capable of destroying a warship, and can more or less take out a small army.

And for future reference, Shaak Ti - for all her skill - was one of seven Jedi crushed by Grievous on Hypori, alongside Ki-Adi-Mundi and K'Kruhk. So it can be assumed that Kit outclasses her by a bit.

In a way, I am agreeing with Darthsith19, however in a different way.

Qui-Gon Jinn was considered to be by his instructor as the "best lightsaber duelist he had seen in over 400 years of teaching in the Jedi Order." During this time, who was battlemaster of the Jedi Order during this time? Guess what, Count Dooku of Serenno! Dooku, since he takes Jinn as his apprentice, calls him the best swordsmen he has seen in 400 years. This excludes himself, but it includes pre-TPM Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, and Mace Windu.

As you know, Mace Windu probably hasn't perfected Vapaad during this time, ergo is worse than Jinn. And an important fact is this is Jinn in his prime .

My theory is that a Jedi's powers increase in a form similar to a 'sad face' parabola. It shoots up fast but then it slowly increases. When a Jedi reaches his peak, he is the topmost point on the parabola. However, unlike a regular parabola, the Jedi stays at this point for some time (several years). After this though, he begins to deteriorate in terms of lightsaber strength and dueling. Growing older ruins your atheleticism, and even a Jedi can't be better than what he was when he thirty as opposed to seventy.

This is what I believed happened to Qui-Gon. Jinn died at the age of sixty. I believe Jinn during this period underwent a deterioration of strength. You see in TPM that he cannot possibly the greatest the Order has seen in 400 years because he gets destoyed by Maul. But that's the thing, if it was Qui-Gon in his prime, then I believe he could have killed Maul. Heck, Jinn in his prime would probably be greater than Quinlan Vos, Luminara Unduli, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, and even Drallig and Billaba perhaps.

Let's take Yoda. Yoda is very powerful, but I doubt he was in his prime during ROTS. In terms of the Force, the older you get the stronger you get. In terms of the lightsaber, the older you get to your prime, the stronger you get. The farther you move away from his apex, the weaker you become. This way Yoda must have started to deterioate in his lightsaber abilities when he was around 618 years old.

But of course, this is all theory. But this is how I see it makes sense.

Yup, I don't exactly see Yoda increasing that much more in force strenght as of his prime and forward, but I more see him getting knowledge and techniques. (But maybe that's what you meant.) Anyway, a young Yoda would probably be kickass in lightsaber combat, probably around the skill of the best people in SW, seeing as he is damn fast, and his size makes him unique.

On the quote regarding Qui-Gon... it was retconned if it meant Dooku. Dooku didn't teach at the Temple for four hundred years.

It was referring to Yoda.

It fits in perfectly on Yaddle though, since she was around 400.

If this is Jinn in his prime, then he takes it.

If it's TPM Jinn, then Plo Koon wins.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
If this is Jinn in his prime, then he takes it.

If it's TPM Jinn, then Plo Koon wins.

Thx darth! I don't like how people downplay QGJ and stuff. Seriously why would they have the quote then if it contradicts everything!!! It had to be referring to Jinn in prime, not TPM.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Forgot anything about Dooku, Qui-Gon's lightsaber instructor said he was the best Jedi Swordsmen he's seen in over 400 years. better than Plo, Mundi, Tyvokka or Dooku (who all fall in the 400 year range).

No, it means that Qui-Gon was the better duelist once upon a time or that as a Youngling/Padawan he was a better dueler than Dooku was as a Youngling/Padawan. Or maybe Qui-Gon had more potential and just never reached it.

Didn't Kenobi just look away from the battle and then "suddenly Kit was down!" or something like that right after?

Okay, I'm sure your right, but still, just three months after that Kenobi was able to hold his own with Asajj.

"had the Chancellor been of mind enough to surround himself with Jedi of Windu or Fisto's calibre, the battle may have gone differently."
May and might, same thing last time I checked. Actually, upon re-reading what you typed, what it seems to be saying is if he had been surrounded by four Kit's as oppossed to four random Jedi Grievous might have lost. That means 4 Kit's vs. Grievous and maybe Grievous would lose. Not very impressive, imo.

In comparrison with the other Jedi/Sith in the CW cartoon what Shaak Ti did seems about right. Same with Kit. I wouldn't say what Kit did in the CW is more impressive than what Shaak Ti did, maybe equal or Shaak Ti's accomplishment may even have been greater. So is Shaak Ti stronger than Mundi, PLo and Jinn? Doubtful.

She was exhausted, afraid and surprised, and Grievous only took on 5 of those Jedi at once, and they were all tired, afraid and surprised. That she lasted longer than K'Kruhk, who put up a pretty good fight against Quinlan Vos, and Mundi, who apparently did some amazing things in Outbound Flight or whatever that comic's called is impressive.

It was referring to Yoda.

Oh, and you're a sock, in-case the last two or three bans flew by your head. Scoot.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Qui-Gon Jinn was considered to be by his instructor as the "best lightsaber duelist he had seen in over 400 years of teaching in the Jedi Order." During this time, who was battlemaster of the Jedi Order during this time? Guess what, Count Dooku of Serenno! Dooku, since he takes Jinn as his apprentice, calls him the best swordsmen he has seen in 400 years. This excludes himself, but it includes pre-TPM Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, and Mace Windu.

The rest is theory, so I won't attack it. You're entitled to your own beliefs.

If it were referring to Yoda, it's off by a good three hundred years, as he'd taught at the Temple for eight hundred years as of RotS. Stop trying to find ways to make your quote work.

The Jedi lightsaber master who taught Qui-Gon had considered him the best lightsaber duelist he had seen in over 400 years of teaching in the Jedi Order

Yoda applies, it says over four hundred years of teaching the order... Idiot!

His instructor was Dooku, who was eighty, not four hundred. Why is this so hard to understand?

His master was Dooku, not necessarily his lightsaber instructor. For example, Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's master, however his ligthsaber instructor was not Qui-Gon, but Cin Drallig.

Well, we know this isn't true because we've seen Yoda and Qui Gon fight in the movies and.......

His instructor was Dooku, who was eighty, not four hundred. Why is this so hard to understand?

Again, as Nebaris says, it doesn't have refer to Dooku. Just because Dooku was the battlemaster doesn't mean there is only lightsaber instructor! And it could definately relate to Yoda or Tyvokka or some other ancient Jedi.

Same as the above.

Not exactly.

If it were referring to Yoda, it's off by a good three hundred years, as he'd taught at the Temple for eight hundred years as of RotS. Stop trying to find ways to make your quote work.

Excuse, but where did you find this bullshit? How do you Yoda taught the Order for 800 years? Please read:

From the Databank:

When Yoda was 700 years old, he served on a council of Jedi Masters instructing new students aboard the massive Jedi training vessel Chu'unthor.

This tells that Yoda has been teaching Jedi for 200 years. Not 800. And considering all other situations and such, I find it very likely that it was Yoda who made that claim.

Good thing Dooku was 400 years old then. Last I checked, he was eighty, so you just ended your own argument.

To bad it's not Dooku, but Yoda.

The Jedi lightsaber master who taught Qui-Gon had considered him the best lightsaber duelist he had seen in over 400 years of teaching in the Jedi Order

Yoda applies, it says over four hundred years of teaching the order... Idiot!

His master was Dooku, not necessarily his lightsaber instructor. For example, Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's master, however his ligthsaber instructor was not Qui-Gon, but Cin Drallig.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Again, as Nebaris says, it doesn't have refer to Dooku. Just because Dooku was the battlemaster doesn't mean there is only lightsaber instructor! And it could definately relate to Yoda or Tyvokka or some other ancient Jedi.

2) It can't be Yoda, because he's taught for twice as long as the quote states.

3) I doubt some random Jedi Master - in this case, Tyvokka - would be teaching another student the arts of the lightsaber, as we've never seen anyone else do it who didn't hold a designated position.

Excuse, but where did you find this bullshit? How do you Yoda taught the Order for 800 years? Please read:

From the Databank:

When Yoda was 700 years old, he served on a council of Jedi Masters instructing new students aboard the massive Jedi training vessel Chu'unthor.

This tells that Yoda has been teaching Jedi for 200 years. Not 800. And considering all other situations and such, I find it very likely that it was Yoda who made that claim

I'd watch what I call bullshit.

To bad it's not Dooku, but Yoda.

Of course, because the author would just randomly pick a number less than the real value and substitute it as such. . . idiot.

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I must say, I'm real surprised Faunus, the way people talk about you, you actually seem like an intelligent person and logical debater, just goes to show how people are stupid. I mean seriously, that was the best response you could give?

For one, I haven't posted here in two or three months, and you never knew me, so I doubt anyone's talked to you about me. Second, I'd like to know if you're going to actually post an appropriate response instead of dream up another idiotic comment. And third - you're a sock. You're not wanted here. So GTFO.

Originally posted by Crado
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I must say, I'm real surprised Faunus, the way people talk about you, you actually seem like an intelligent person and logical debater, just goes to show how people are stupid. I mean seriously, that was the best response you could give?

Faunus and I may not get along anymore, but to call him stupid?