AotC Darth Tyranus vs TESB Vader and ANH Obi Wan

Originally posted by jollyjim311
* Massive amounts of physical strength (especially when compared to Dooku), and a form that utilizes his strength. It also turns out that this form is great against Makashi.

Fair enough. But strength alone doesnt win you the fight. Especially when Vader is pathetically slow. Dooku would be able to get several good hits in before Vader even lifts up his blade - if we are going by what we see in ESB (which I assume we are because it is ESB Vader.

* Semi lightsaber-resistant armor. It isn't a huge advantage, but against weak hits of Makashi, it's better to have than not.

True. I dont see any way around this.

Speed. Although Vaders form is all about holding ground and staying relatively still,he has the capability to be fast, as seen in Crimson Empire and other sources.

No, Vader doesnt have speed. Again this is ESB Vader, he is shamefully slow - especially against someone like Tyranus, who was able to hold his own rather well against the likes of Yoda.

* Knowledge of Dooku and his fighting style. Dooku knows nothing about Vader, but Vader will remember Dooku, I'm sure.

Doesnt Vader use a combined style of Makashi and Djem So? News Flash. Dooku is the undisputed master od Makashi, having trained with it for 80 years. He also has knowledge of Djem So, having been the temples Battle Master and all. He also describes Anakin as the best Djem So practicioner he had ever seen, heavily implying that he knows the form and how it works.

* Kenobi. [/B]

Kenobi would be more of a burden than an asset in this fight. The two hardly have the same team work they used to have, they fight differently and they will more than likely have the emotional factor in their mind while they fight (which in case you didnt realise would be a bad thing).

I agree with some of Ox's points, specifically that Kenobi is not exactly at his physical peak, and that he is 20 years out of practice, and even at his optimum weaker than the count, I am pretty sure he wouldn't be much of a distraction.

Common knowledge of the lightsaber:
The lightsaber's hilt consisted of an alloy cylinder traditionally 25 to 30 centimeters long;

The most logical assumption then is that Vader's lightsaber hilt is an electrical conductor, given that most lightsaber hilts are made from alloys such as electrum.

I agree with some of Ox's points, specifically that Kenobi is not exactly at his physical peak, and that he is 20 years out of practice, and even at his optimum weaker than the count, I am pretty sure he wouldn't be much of a distraction.

I disagree. Count Dooku will have to use the Force to disable Obi-Wan easily. As I recall, he was unable to overcome Obi-Wan's lightsaber defense in the movies. There's nothing to indicate that he'd do so, easily, now.

Common knowledge of the lightsaber:
The lightsaber's hilt consisted of an alloy cylinder traditionally 25 to 30 centimeters long;

The most logical assumption then is that Vader's lightsaber hilt is an electrical conductor, given that most lightsaber hilts are made from alloys such as electrum.

Mace was bombarded with lightning from Sidious. The difficulty he had was that the force of the lightning was pushing his lightsaber back against him. Notice that nothing happened to the hilt itself.

Obi-Wan had zero difficulty with Count Dooku's lightning, and it didn't affect the hilt.

Are their lightsaber hilts made of something else?

I disagree. Count Dooku will have to use the Force to disable Obi-Wan easily. As I recall, he was unable to overcome Obi-Wan's lightsaber defense in the movies. There's nothing to indicate that he'd do so, easily, now.

Your entitled to your opinion then.

I personally find that if someone has been is isolate from using his powers, denied a body of knowledge to study, denied from sparring, and to top it all, way past his physical prime, then he is going to be out of practice and out of the battle quickly. Especially with Obi Wan, when in the ROTS novel, all the Count had to do is "flick his wrist."

Mace was bombarded with lightning from Sidious. The difficulty he had was that the force of the lightning was pushing his lightsaber back against him. Notice that nothing happened to the hilt itself.

Obi-Wan had zero difficulty with Count Dooku's lightning, and it didn't affect the hilt.

Are their lightsaber hilts made of something else? [/B]

Dude, the clincher being them not composed of a material that goes absolutely haywhire in the presence of lightning.

You do realise Count Dooku only used one handed lightning in the movie right?

So Mace's lightsaber and AotC Obi-Wan's lightsaber were made of something different?

Or are you assuming that is the case because they didn't go haywire against the lightning?

Originally posted by The Planet
You do realise Count Dooku only used one handed lightning in the movie right?

No, vader used one handed too

Originally posted by zephiel7

The most logical assumption then is that Vader's lightsaber hilt is an electrical conductor, given that most lightsaber hilts are made from alloys such as electrum.

Originally posted by Gideon
So Mace's lightsaber and AotC Obi-Wan's lightsaber were made of something different?

No, not at all.

I am saying that Vader's suit is made up of material that is extremely susceptible to lightning, as Sidious himself says. That is the difference that seperates him from Mace and Obi Wan. If Dooku were to aim it at the hilt of the lightsaber, it could devestate Vader.

Originally posted by zephiel7
No, not at all.

I am saying that Vader's [b]suit is made up of material that is extremely susceptible to lightning, as Sidious himself says. That is the difference that seperates him from Mace and Obi Wan. If Dooku were to aim it at the hilt of the lightsaber, it could devestate Vader. [/B]

And Vader's gonna hold the hilt up nice and easy for Dooku to aim at it? No.

Originally posted by The Planet
And Vader's gonna hold the hilt up nice and easy for Dooku to aim at it? No.

Agreed. Hence I don't know why Zephiel's trying to argue that ridiculous point. The blade of the lightsaber also seems to absorb the lightning before it can reach the hilt or the user.

Given that Dooku didn't do it to Obi-Wan, either he's not aware of that advantage, or it is extremely difficult to aim.

Originally posted by Gideon
Agreed. Hence I don't know why Zephiel's trying to argue that ridiculous point. The blade of the lightsaber also seems to absorb the lightning before it can reach the hilt or the user.

Given that Dooku didn't do it to Obi-Wan, either he's not aware of that advantage, or it is extremely difficult to aim.

Quotes from Palpatine seem to imply that he is significantly weak against lightning. For all we know, the lightning could be attracted to his armour and completely ignore the saber.

I don't see the point of saying this tidbit if Vader could simply deflect it with the lightsaber. It would seem redundant; because frankly, if most of the Jedi in ROTS were hit head on by Palpatine's lightning, they'd be ****ed.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Quotes from Palpatine seem to imply that he is significantly weak against lightning. For all we know, the lightning could be attracted to his armour and completely ignore the saber.

I don't see the point of saying this tidbit if Vader could simply deflect it with the lightsaber. It would seem redundant; because frankly, if most of the Jedi in ROTS were hit head on by Palpatine's lightning, they'd be ****ed.

All the Emperor said was that "[he] could easily overwhelm the delicate electrical devices of [Vader's] suit." That is not to say that Count Dooku himself could.

All that you are making are unsupported assumptions. And since it hasn't happened to anyone else, I'm not exactly seeing it.

All that you are making are unsupported assumptions. And since it hasn't happened to anyone else, I'm not exactly seeing it. [/B]

LOL, come on man.

You guys are making as many unsupported assumptions as me.

You guys believe that Vader is automatically able to deflect lightning with a lightsaber DESPITE Sidious' words. It seems rather absurd for him to state it, IF, it were not applicable with lightsaber included. Because otherwise, any damn idiot hit by lightning would be 'overwhelmed.'

Originally posted by zephiel7
LOL, come on man.

You guys are making as many unsupported assumptions as me.

You guys believe that Vader is automatically able to deflect lightning with a lightsaber DESPITE Sidious' words. It seems rather absurd for him to state it, IF, it were not applicable with lightsaber included. Because otherwise, any damn idiot hit by lightning would be 'overwhelmed.'

Wrong. Mace Windu had, as you say, "a superconducting loop" thanks to Vaapad, and yet - Sidious nearly killed him from being in an inferior position, and being blasted in the face.

A lightsaber can stop lightning. That should apply to Vader as well. The difference is, a sufficiently powerful Force user can blast through the defenses provided by a lightsaber.

Sidious did it to Yoda without difficulty, and he nearly did it to Mace, despite being on his ass and in an inferior position.

That doesn't mean Dooku can do it either.

Yoda was hit head on, didn't die...Mace was hit and died from the fall...Dooku got Anakin, didn't die...Sidious got Luke for a LONG time, didn't die...so no one has died directly from lightning. Vader, when hit by lightning, having his hand cut off, and taking his mask off, still didn't die right away, remember? A lightsaber is made from a pure beam of energy, which would act more as a conductor than metal. Energy is drawn to energy, being as they are both intangible, so no the lightning would not pass his saber and travel to his suit. And the reason Yoda lost his saber, isn't due to the level of power that Palps shot his lightning with, it's because Yoda jumped up, wasn't "set" yet and didn't have a grip on the saber necessary to hold on to it. As soon as he jumps, he gets attacked and pushes the saber away. I thought it was clear. Mace was using two hands and struggling to maintain control of it, which has nothing to do with the power of the force user, just the physical strength of the person holding the saber, which i would say Vader is stronger than Mace. It was settled in the Dooku vs. Vader thread that vader could block it with a saber, being as OB1 did with one hand against Dooku.

Originally posted by zephiel7
LOL, come on man.

You guys are making as many unsupported assumptions as me.

You guys believe that Vader is automatically able to deflect lightning with a lightsaber DESPITE Sidious' words. It seems rather absurd for him to state it, IF, it were not applicable with lightsaber included. Because otherwise, any damn idiot hit by lightning would be 'overwhelmed.'

Like subject said, vader didnt die strait away, and palpatine was shocking him with lightning after he carried palpatine. Dookus lightning on the other hand is not as poewrufl and could be blocked easily with BOTH force dissipate(which vader has and demonstrated in TESB) and a lightsaber as obi wan proved.

Jorus c boath lighting was just as powerful as sidious lighting(i assume) and mara jade, a weakling could block it with her saber, dont you think vadercan do the same?

Originally posted by Kadesh
Dookus lightning on the other hand is not as poewrufl and could be blocked easily with BOTH force dissipate(which vader has and demonstrated in TESB) and a lightsaber as obi wan proved.

I'm sorry, but what? Darth Vader is incapable of repelling Force lightning, without the possible chance of using a lightsaber to block it.

What he demonstrated in ESB is irrelevant to the fact that, without a saber, Vader will be curbstomped by lightning. The RotS Visual Dictionary states explicity that he is neither able to conjur nor repel lightning as it requires living hands to do so. Vader's artificial replacements will not be an adequate defense.

And, as far as I recall, it's still theorized that Vader's gloves had to do with blocking Han Solo's blaster bolt (as Rex brought up awhile ago). As we know, the properties of a blaster bolt and Force lightning are different on such a different degree, so it's not logical nor conclusive to say that because he can block X, he can block Y.

Like subject said, vader didnt die strait away, and palpatine was shocking him with lightning after he carried palpatine

I would probably say it's smart to take into account Vader had just gone turncoat on Sidious, and he didn't have very much time to react or apply immediate/immense power into his attack. He was, after all, focused on Luke when Vader decided to benchpress the fool.

Although, that's not to say he'll die instantly anyways against Dooku's. Just stating a point to take into consideration.

Jorus c boath lighting was just as powerful as sidious lighting(i assume)

Why do you assume this? Sidious' lightning:

What of Joruus' lightning? You'll have to excuse me, as I've not seen his being displayed on such an impressive or devastating scale (nor have I read into the Thrawn Trilogy much, so provide a passage, scan, etc. to compete).

Advent, people assume that getting hit with lightning will immediately kill vader, which i apparantly i do not think its true, it didnt matter weather sidious used full power on vader or not, because he still got hit with lightning and did not die immediately, and still had the power to walkand throw the fool down the shaft

Vader was hit by lightning and was mortally wounded. All of the organic life forms (from the movies) got hit by lightning were up and rearing to go within seconds. this clearly shows that Vaders life support cant withstand lightning of any power.