Angry crowd protests NYPD shooting

Frankly, I douibt you would pull that off, PVS> I know it might sound silly, but yes, even the van would be a difficult target in a sudden, unplanned situation where you think (mistakenly or otherwise) that your life is at risk. It's all adrenaline and instinct and VERY few people are good shots in that kind of situation; only the people who have received enormous amounts of training (Secret Service agents in the US, or the Armed Response Unit in the UK, and even then they prefer to open fire after taking a lot of time to get a good firing position and aiming done).

Fact of the matter is, nearly all bullets fired from handguns miss. They only don't at pointblank range

For all the mistakes made in identification and reaction in this incident, there really isn't anything too extraordinary about the accuracy.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
did you SEE him pull out a wallet? were you THERE to witness this? NO.....so step down off of your pedestal, because you know as much as i do about what ACTUALLY happened, and that is nothing.
sure, his post about me "accusing him of being being irrational" is valid, and i might have said some harsh things, but i can guarantee you that even if evidence comes to light that the cops WERE in fact fighting for theit lives, that the "victim" WAS indeed a threat, you guys will still not change your tune. you will both stick with your ridiculous theory that cps are all trigger happy madmen that abuse their power.
defend PVS all you want, i could care less. there is nothing to defend, really, unless he cant defend himself, which i know for a fact that he is more than capable of doing.
if he and i have words, and we say some messed up stuff to each other, themn i truly regret that. right here and now, here is my formal apology if i offended him: PVS, IF I OFFENDED YOU IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, THEN I AM SORRY. I DIDNT MEAN TO. PEOPLE MISREAD POSTS HERE ALL THE TIME (even though i dont think i did) AND SOMETIMES THINGS ARE SAID IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT THAT ARENT REALLY MEANT. AGAINM IF I OFFENDED YOU, MY BAD.
sandman, what i dont get is where you come off, stepping in, insulting me, calling me fu***ng ridiculous, when you arent even part of the argument PVS and myself unfortunately go into. you should let he and i settle it. you have no right to step in and try to be mediator. i guess you are one of those people who like to step in to an argument and make it worse.....ie: drama queen.

i missed this burried in the infinite flame war between you two. my bad.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Frankly, I douibt you would pull that off, PVS> I know it might sound silly, but yes, even the van would be a difficult target in a sudden, unplanned situation where you think (mistakenly or otherwise) that your life is at risk. It's all adrenaline and instinct and VERY few people are good shots in that kind of situation; only the people who have received enormous amounts of training (Secret Service agents in the US, or the Armed Response Unit in the UK, and even then they prefer to open fire after taking a lot of time to get a good firing position and aiming done).

Fact of the matter is, nearly all bullets fired from handguns miss. They only don't at pointblank range

For all the mistakes made in identification and reaction in this incident, there really isn't anything too extraordinary about the accuracy.

i agree. not that im putting the nypd down, im sure many choose to sharpen their skill outside the curriculum of the academy...however shouldnt an officer of the law, authorised to use deadly force with a firearm, be properly trained to use it? just because something is the norm doesnt make it right. innocent people could have been hurt or killed. its just my thinking that if someone's job is to protect the people using a firearm, and their lack of marksmanship makes them almost as dangerous to the surrounding people as the criminal posing a threat to them, doesnt it just **** the situation up more? exponentially even since their presence in most cases initiates the gun fight?

maybe i expect too much, but maybe the general public expects to little. but i guess to train then at that level would entail more funding to the academies, and we all know that money is more important than public safety. besides, id rather rest assured that a cop is trained extensively to handle a deadly weapon in a chaotic situation, rather than know that they can run through a vigorous obsticle course ala olympic training...just in case the u.s. track and field team goes missing.

I noticed that you posted this again, in response to some flame war, or something.

Well I'd responded to it the first time, yet nobody seemed to catch it as the page turned on the next post after mine.

Originally posted by Mr. Sandman
Oh, of course. Cops NEVER shoot people prematurely. They were completely justified in shooting Amadu Diallo 41 times too, even though he was pulling out a WALLET.

Or shooting a guy on his porch 81 times for throwing a FLIP FLOP.

Or that guy who got shot and killed for holding a CELL PHONE.

You put way too much faith in cops.

And you don't put enough.

I saw the video of the guy with flip-flop. Maybe he should have just laid his ass on the ground, got cuffed, questioned, and either released or jailed.

The guy got shot because he didn't do what he was told, and then flashed something at the cops.

Not a weapon, not with the intention of hurting the cops, but the officers can't really know that, can they? All they know is he ain't obeying instructions. Then he flashes something in his hand. BOOM. Dead.

In the case of Amadu Diallo, it's the same, but more unfortunate. He was told to lay down on the floor, and instead of obeying reached for his wallet to show some ID.

Had he done what he was told, he wouldn't have gotten shot.

I tend to agree with you on that one, the officers needed to be more cautious, but when going to arrest a suspect who may be armed, they must be edgy.

When the said suspect doesn't respond to directions and moves to grab something (shoe, phone, whatever) they are well within their rights to think that he is going for a weapon.

Apparently the jury (which consisted of mostly, if not all African-Americans) agreed as they didn't charge those cops with anything.

I'm not sure of the cell phone incident to which you refer, because I have seen one video like that on Wildest Police Videos or something, but it might not be the one that you're refering to.

Same deal in the video that I saw, in that one, the guy wouldn't go down and get cuffed, tried to run, and turned around and pointed a black cell phone at the officers. At night time.

Surprise, he got shot! (Dee-duh-Dee!)

This is stupid. I'm not gonna weigh in on the NYPD case at hand until all facts are out, but as a rule you shouldn't be giving the cops shit for shooting people who don't comply with directions and then flash something in their hands.

It's not as though the cops are just pulling people over and shooting them, or as though they break into houses and cap people in the head who are watching TV.

These are arrests.

We all know the drill.

License and Registration if you're in a car. If he wants to pull you out and cuff and search you and run your name to check for warrants, then shut the f*ck up and let him (or her as it sometimes is) do it.

If you're walking or at home and are pulled over/arrested, then let them pat you down, run your name, check for gang tattoo's etc... and go on with your day.

Maybe it's just because I have a criminal record and have been arrested a good 5 or 6 times, and been pulled over more than I would care to count, often just walking down the street but I know these simple rules.

If I don't comply with the questioning, then I can be cuffed and have my record searched.

If I resist physically, then I'll be restrained.

If I resist restrainment with force or with a weapon, if I'm endandering the lives of civilians or officers, or.....ignore directions and flash an object at them.....

I have myself to blame for getting shot.

Originally posted by PVS
i missed this burried in the infinite flame war between you two. my bad.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I noticed that you posted this again, in response to some flame war, or something.

Well I'd responded to it the first time, yet nobody seemed to catch it as the page turned on the next post after mine.

And you don't put enough.

I saw the video of the guy with flip-flop. Maybe he should have just laid his ass on the ground, got cuffed, questioned, and either released or jailed.

The guy got shot because he didn't do what he was told, and then flashed something at the cops.

Not a weapon, not with the intention of hurting the cops, but the officers can't really know that, can they? All they know is he ain't obeying instructions. Then he flashes something in his hand. BOOM. Dead.

In the case of Amadu Diallo, it's the same, but more unfortunate. He was told to lay down on the floor, and instead of obeying reached for his wallet to show some ID.

Had he done what he was told, he wouldn't have gotten shot.

I tend to agree with you on that one, the officers needed to be more cautious, but when going to arrest a suspect who may be armed, they must be edgy.

When the said suspect doesn't respond to directions and moves to grab something (shoe, phone, whatever) they are well within their rights to think that he is going for a weapon.

Apparently the jury (which consisted of mostly, if not all African-Americans) agreed as they didn't charge those cops with anything.

I'm not sure of the cell phone incident to which you refer, because I have seen one video like that on Wildest Police Videos or something, but it might not be the one that you're refering to.

Same deal in the video that I saw, in that one, the guy wouldn't go down and get cuffed, tried to run, and turned around and pointed a black cell phone at the officers. At night time.

Surprise, he got shot! (Dee-duh-Dee!)

This is stupid. I'm not gonna weigh in on the NYPD case at hand until all facts are out, but as a rule you shouldn't be giving the cops shit for shooting people who don't comply with directions and then flash something in their hands.

It's not as though the cops are just pulling people over and shooting them, or as though they break into houses and cap people in the head who are watching TV.

These are arrests.

We all know the drill.

License and Registration if you're in a car. If he wants to pull you out and cuff and search you and run your name to check for warrants, then shut the f*ck up and let him (or her as it sometimes is) do it.

If you're walking or at home and are pulled over/arrested, then let them pat you down, run your name, check for gang tattoo's etc... and go on with your day.

Maybe it's just because I have a criminal record and have been arrested a good 5 or 6 times, and been pulled over more than I would care to count, often just walking down the street but I know these simple rules.

If I don't comply with the questioning, then I can be cuffed and have my record searched.

If I resist physically, then I'll be restrained.

If I resist restrainment with force or with a weapon, if I'm endandering the lives of civilians or officers, or.....ignore directions and flash an object at them.....

I have myself to blame for getting shot.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I noticed that you posted this again, in response to some flame war, or something.

Well I'd responded to it the first time, yet nobody seemed to catch it as the page turned on the next post after mine.

No, I caught it. Just didn't see a reason to respond. You're making excuses for them.

An officer chooses to be an officer, definitely knowing the risk to his life. It's his duty as an officer to make sure the life he takes is not an innocent life, nor wasted, even if it means risking his own life.

An officer has the right to draw his gun whenever he wants. However, he doesn't have the right to fire it until his life is in danger. Not if he thinks his life might be in danger.

When the weapon is drawn, then he can fire until his bullets run out, I don't care.

To shoot someone reaching for his ID is absurd. To shoot someone for being a reckless drunk is absurd. To shoot someone for throwing a flipflop is absurd. To shoot someone reaching for his cellphone is absurd.

Those officers firing 50 shots and only having 20 hit their target put the entire neighborhood in danger. That's unacceptable for an officer.

panic and adrenaline=bad marksmanship.

that equation is incomplete

inadequate training/conditioning+panic and adrenaline=bad...well really no marksmanship

Now that I think about it, it kind of seems like a moment from a movie. Specifically the Lethal Weapon series, where Mel Gibson is always shooting and blowing up shit and causing millions of dollars in public damage.

I can imagine the officers in the Chief's office, "What the hell were you guys thinking!? You caused $10,000 in damages and shot three unarmed men!"

*cue saxaphone*

im gettin too old for this shit

Originally posted by Mr. Sandman
You're making excuses for them.

And you're giving them shit for no reason.

Originally posted by Mr. Sandman

An officer chooses to be an officer, definitely knowing the risk to his life. It's his duty as an officer to make sure the life he takes is not an innocent life, nor wasted, even if it means risking his own life.

Yup, he does choose it. He chooses to protect your ass from the sicko's out there.

He's not taking an "innocent" life if the person isn't responding to directions, is yelling and acting combative, or pulls out a wallet, or flip-flop, or cell phone when they are supposed to be laying down and shutting the f*ck up.

Maybe you'd like for me to post the story of the local Rocklin, CA CHP officer who had his head blown off by a 21 year old on meth when he walked up to the door for a traffic stop.

The police all know of it, as many from around the state and even the counrty came here for his funeral.

That's what they are thinking about when the come into contact with people.

Cops don't know what a person has on them or what they will do, when they are stopped/questioned/being arrested.

Nor is it their "responsibility" to "wait and see" if somebody kills them.

A person who doesn't follow directions, and pulls out/points something at a cop is asking to get killed.

Were they an "innocent life" killed?

Nope. Just a stupid one.

Originally posted by Mr. Sandman

To shoot someone reaching for his ID is absurd. To shoot someone for being a reckless drunk is absurd. To shoot someone for throwing a flipflop is absurd. To shoot someone reaching for his cellphone is absurd.

To not listen to directions, to not submit to questioning or arrest, and to then reach for an ID, flip-flop, or cell phone is pretty f*cking absurd.

It's why we're told as kids not to play with toy guns that look real, or to have a bb gun under our shorts, or paint a gun black or silver.

A cop doesn't know if what we have is a real gun, not unless he comes right up to us, stands still and looks at it for a second.

I for one, don't expect our boys in blue to have to do that shit when they deal with gang members, drug dealers, and murdering psychos who all would rather kill them than go to prison.

As I posted before, we all know the drill:

License and Registration if you're in a car. If he wants to pull you out and cuff and search you and run your name to check for warrants, then shut the f*ck up and let him (or her as it sometimes is) do it.

If you're walking or at home and are pulled over/arrested, then let them pat you down, run your name, check for gang tattoo's etc... and go on with your day.

If I don't comply with the questioning, then I can be cuffed and have my record searched.

If I resist physically, then I'll be restrained.

If I resist restrainment with force or with a weapon, if I'm endandering the lives of civilians or officers, or.....ignore directions and flash an object at them.....

I have myself to blame for getting shot.

So you're of the 'guilty until proven innocent' mindset. Nice. I'm glad you aren't in charge of anything.

You also conveniently skipped this last part of my post

Those officers firing 50 shots and only having 20 hit their target put the entire neighborhood in danger. That's unacceptable for an officer.

When you fire prematurely and recklessly, you put innocent lives at risk.

Your regard for life is surprisingly non-chalant considering youre supposed to be a people-loving Christian. "Not innocent, but stupid". Excellent connection there Sherlock. Since when have stupid people been automatically guilty?

Want to kill of all illiterate people too? How about all of the retards? Let's just execute them all since they're obviously not innocent. They must have done something wrong, they're ****ing stupid!!

Originally posted by Mr. Sandman
So you're of the 'guilty until proven innocent' mindset. Nice. I'm glad you aren't in charge of anything.

You also conveniently skipped this last part of my post

When you fire prematurely and recklessly, you put innocent lives at risk.

Your regard for life is surprisingly non-chalant considering youre supposed to be a people-loving Christian. "Not innocent, but stupid". Excellent connection there Sherlock. Since when have stupid people been automatically guilty?

Want to kill of all illiterate people too? How about all of the retards? Let's just execute them all since they're obviously not innocent. They must have done something wrong, they're ****ing stupid!!

First of all, I agreed that this more recent case has yet to be decided and that I won't pass any judgement on it yet.

The rest of your post is an anti-christian rant, and therefore invalid.

Save for the point that you think I believe "people are guilty until proven innocent."

I never said that.

I'm saying that when people don't follow police instructions in being questioned or searched, and yes also when being arrested, they are foolish.

They are far more foolish to not follow instructions and to point or flash something at an officer.

It's not his job to take time to inspect every person holding an ID, cell phone, flip-flop, bb gun, water gun, or whatever, with the very real possiblity that doing so will get him shot before he can determine what the person has.

It IS the job of the citizen to comply with the officer's requests and not impede his investigation.

It is further his own dumb-ass fault if he doesn't follow directions with a loaded gun pointed at him, and instead points something at the officer.

Do you honestly expect a police officer, acting for your safety and his own, to take that time with a suspect who doesn't follow directions and points something at him?

Wait don't answer that.

You'd make a piss-poor cop, one that wouldn't be counted on by his partners, and probably a dead one too.

No, it wasn't an anti-christian rant, idiot. read it again. there was ONE anti-christian sentence.

Were they an "innocent life" killed?

Nope. Just a stupid one.

yea, yea you did say that.

It's a police officer's job to put is ass on the line, and they should expect even to be fired upon. It is neither the job nor an expectation of a civilian to be shot if he is not holding a weapon.

Yes, I expect the officer to wait one second and see exactly what the hell that person is pulling out of their pocket to open fire. If he pulls out an ID card, the officer just killed an innocent civilian. If he pulls out a knife, awesome, the cop just killed a criminal.

it's his DUTY to put his ass on the line, even to protect ONE person from being killed irresponsibly.

Don't worry about what kind of cop I'd make. it has nothing to do with the discussion, and personally, I don't feel like putting my life on the line for ****s like you.

There needs to be a school for civilian "jobs" so if ever in question and a poiceman makes a mistake but I didn't do my "job" and get shot at least they can stand over my corpse and snicker "what an idiot he didn't do his job right but at least my aim was good."

Originally posted by PVS
that equation is incomplete

inadequate training/conditioning+panic and adrenaline=bad...well really no marksmanship

Originally posted by sithsaber408
No, they were trained at shooting ranges and such, against paper targets. So you are right. But they also were never in any situation where they have fired a weapon before, at least according to their records.

So although they may have had plenty of weapons training, this was the first actual "live fire" use of their weapons.

I'm not saying that what they did was top-notch, but I'm cutting them some slack for the sub-par shooting since it's one thing to practice and another to play.

And you don't put enough.

I saw the video of the guy with flip-flop. Maybe he should have just laid his ass on the ground, got cuffed, questioned, and either released or jailed.

The guy got shot because he didn't do what he was told, and then flashed something at the cops.

Not a weapon, not with the intention of hurting the cops, but the officers can't really know that, can they? All they know is he ain't obeying instructions. Then he flashes something in his hand. BOOM. Dead.

In the case of Amadu Diallo, it's the same, but more unfortunate. He was told to lay down on the floor, and instead of obeying reached for his wallet to show some ID.

Had he done what he was told, he wouldn't have gotten shot.

I tend to agree with you on that one, the officers needed to be more cautious, but when going to arrest a suspect who may be armed, they must be edgy.

When the said suspect doesn't respond to directions and moves to grab something (shoe, phone, whatever) they are well within their rights to think that he is going for a weapon.

Apparently the jury (which consisted of mostly, if not all African-Americans) agreed as they didn't charge those cops with anything.

I'm not sure of the cell phone incident to which you refer, because I have seen one video like that on Wildest Police Videos or something, but it might not be the one that you're refering to.

Same deal in the video that I saw, in that one, the guy wouldn't go down and get cuffed, tried to run, and turned around and pointed a black cell phone at the officers. At night time.

Surprise, he got shot! (Dee-duh-Dee!)

This is stupid. I'm not gonna weigh in on the NYPD case at hand until all facts are out, but as a rule you shouldn't be giving the cops shit for shooting people who don't comply with directions and then flash something in their hands.

It's not as though the cops are just pulling people over and shooting them, or as though they break into houses and cap people in the head who are watching TV.

These are arrests.

We all know the drill.

License and Registration if you're in a car. If he wants to pull you out and cuff and search you and run your name to check for warrants, then shut the f*ck up and let him (or her as it sometimes is) do it.

If you're walking or at home and are pulled over/arrested, then let them pat you down, run your name, check for gang tattoo's etc... and go on with your day.

Maybe it's just because I have a criminal record and have been arrested a good 5 or 6 times, and been pulled over more than I would care to count, often just walking down the street but I know these simple rules.

If I don't comply with the questioning, then I can be cuffed and have my record searched.

If I resist physically, then I'll be restrained.

If I resist restrainment with force or with a weapon, if I'm endandering the lives of civilians or officers, or.....ignore directions and flash an object at them.....

I have myself to blame for getting shot.

[F*ck off.]

Why so angry Mr. Grand Wizard? The victim said, to the cop with smoking gun. 2guns

no anger there, its just a well thought out post. and a mighty good one too.

heres another video of recent "violent police behavior". see anything violent here? not me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEAu0N3GaV8