Marvel Universe: THE END Discussion Thread

Originally posted by leonidas
1. first theory states that near the conclusion of the series, thanos destroyed/absorbed/ENDED the entire MULTIVERSE

I agree.

Originally posted by leonidas
2. second theory states that near the conclusion, thanos destroyed the 616 UNIVERSE.

I disagree.

Originally posted by leonidas
both i think have some merit. personally, i subscribe to #2. the reason i do is pretty simple: i believe when eternity and infinity and living tribunal are "absorbed into" thanos near the end, that these were merely representations of these concepts, and not the concepts themselves. that is to say: i think they were m-bodies that were absorbed. as a result, after the m-bodies were absorbed, the universe (spatially and temporally) still existed because the m-bodies were merely representations/manifestations of these concepts and NOT the entirety of said concepts.

as a result, thanos needed to CONTINUE to absorb the universe around him to absorb the TRUE essence of both infinity and eternity.

If Eternity is just a M-body that's supposedly just a representation of the whole, how do you explain this:

Gamora enters Eternity, (the "M-body"😉 and ends up inside the Infinite Universe he is.

And this:

Thanos became the Universe, by taking Eternity's (the "M-body"😉 place

And this:

When Korvac erased this Universe, it was Eternity (the "M-body"😉 that was erased

And this:

When Insane Genis destroyed the Universe, it was Eternity (the M-body) he crushed

And this:

When (the M-bodys) of Eternity & Death (before Infinity existed) who are guided by the Godly Ones, enter the neighboring VOID, (where there is NOTHINGNESS) Eternity and Death BECOME a New Universe

One more,

And this:

When Reed Erased and Created a New Multi-verse, again, it's Eternity/Infinity (the M-body) that's Erased and Created anew

Originally posted by leonidas
i see no way he could have absorbed the true essence of the living tribunal, who is believed to have an m-body in existence in every universe.

Point out for me where in Quasar #37 is it ever mentioned that the Living Tribunal has an M-body?

Or any issue in any Comic for that matter.

Originally posted by leonidas
i also believe this explains why thanos was still afraid others might rise against him even AFTER he absorbed the m-bodies. eternity and infinity could create OTHER m-bodies,

They weren't even able to strike him once, and he's still worried about the same M-bodys?

Originally posted by leonidas
lt could send another m-body,

Your going to have to show me where has it ever been stated that the Living Tribunal has M-bodys.

Originally posted by leonidas
and the high ranking magical entities/demons (many enormously powerful) would still have remained in existence to "threaten him".

If Eternity/Infinity and the Living Tribunal were a joke to Thanos, I'm positively sure the last thing on Thanos's mind of worries was Mephisto and company.

Originally posted by leonidas
i also believe this explains why thanos was still afraid others might rise against him even AFTER he absorbed the m-bodies. eternity and infinity could create OTHER m-bodies,

"For IF this BAND Could Defy Me...might not OTHERS be equally Foolish?"

"Could I ALLOW ANY to question my divine Authority?

"NO....So I CONTINUED to Absorb ALL that MIGHT Threaten my Reign...Until....

"Nothing Remained"

I'm also interested in WHY would Thanos call the SAME Eternity and Infinity (assuming that's the case) "OTHERS"?

"Others" by it's very definition means: "used to refer to a person or thing that is different or distinct from one already mentioned or known about"

Sure it might be "Another M-body" but it's STILL coming from the SAME Universal Entity Eternity.

And again (assuming that's the case) WHY would Eternity even consider to show up with ONE "M-body" if it's just a portion of his power or being?

When towards the end of issue #5 he was treated like a child's toy, after unleashing ALL the Fury and Power his ONE M-body could muster:

Why not just send 1000 M-bodys or Millions of "M-bodys", because Eternity MUST know, that his ONE M-body was a total Joke to Thanos.

And this quote from the top scan really calls my attention:

"For IF this BAND Could Defy Me...might not OTHERS be equally Foolish?"

Especially, "might not OTHERS be equally Foolish?"

If Eternity/Infinity and the Living Tribunal, were already Foolish enough to attack Thanos,

WHY is Thanos referring to "OTHERS that might be equally Foolish"?

If they (Eternity/Infinity & LT) ALREADY were?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree.

clap

I disagree.

🙁

If Eternity is just a M-body that's supposedly just a representation of the whole, how do you explain this

i KNEW this question was coming . . .

i've given it some thought, so bear with me. there is no reason that as a representation possessing some measure of the abstract's powers and conceptuality that someone couldn't 'enter' eternity and end up within the universe. but what if the m-body is manifest WITHIN the universe itself? what if someone entered him then? i asked you before how can the m-body represent the entirety of the universe and still manifest WITHIN the universe. you said it was strange, but that's how it is. what if it's not? what if some m-bodies are granted more power than others? that is of course speculation, but it seems to make sense to me. when the m-body travels, does the whole universe go with it? is the whole universe in EACH of the 3 m-bodies that existed simultaneously in that quasar issue? how is THAT possible? perhaps if an m-body is granted the full scope of eternity's power it WOULD end the universe if it was killed? i just happen to think that description fits the examples better than saying each m-body has all of eternity's might. what your saying also contradicts quasar's quest. if the m-body really IS 'all' of eternity, why was he searching for it despite finding a host of m-bodies?

there is also the fact that many m-bodies have been destroyed in the past of OTHER abstracts (death, lt, to name a couple) but they always come back. if ALL their power were IN those m-bodies, then when those m-bodies were destroyed, the abstracts should ALSO have been destroyed. is eternity the ONLY abstract who uses 'full-power' m-bodies? just dosen't stand to reason for me, my friend. 😬

to address your second post for a moment because it serves in part to speak to what i'm getting at: the fact that even after eternity was seen "unleashing ALL the Fury and Power his ONE M-body could muster" in that issue #5 you referenced, speaks to a very limited amount of power possessed by that m-body. after all, the attack only destroyed a simple planet. were eternity truly bringing ALL his power to bear, he could have 'mustered' a WHOLE lot more than that . . .

Point out for me where in Quasar #37 is it ever mentioned that the Living Tribunal has an M-body?

i knew THIS question was waiting for me too. 🙂 you're obviously correct in assuming that it was NOT mentioned in quasar #37. it WAS however SHOWN. here again, like eternity, we see at least 2 lt m-bodiesexisting simultaneously:

the famous meeting with the cosmics in IG.

the almost equally famous meeting with the beyonder. like eternity, BOTH m-bodies cannot POSSIBLY possess the full power of the abstract. even in that scan where reed blows lt away, obviously lt was not 'really' destroyed, only the m-body was. if that's not enough, even your favourite website claims that lt has an m-body in every universe. (yah, i know -- you HATE bios. 🙂 i just threw it in as a minor additional confirmation, but seeing multiple lt m-bodies existing at once is pretty conclusive, imho.)

They weren't even able to strike him once, and he's still worried about the same M-bodys?

lt, infinity and eternity DID resist him more than the others though. and some of the other entities i referred to (ie the vishanti) are said to be multiversal in scope of power. they would be more of a threat than the assembled friggin' heroes at least! (heroes?? what the hell were they even DOING there??)

Your going to have to show me where has it ever been stated that the Living Tribunal has M-bodys.

done, i think.

aside from all that, i know you really like that quote where thanos worries a lot about the 'others' who might attack him, but how do you explain away all these references and the many others that were made throughout the series?

again, these are perhaps the 2 most 'cosmically knowledgeable' characters in marvel, written by the cosmic guru himself, and yet REPEATEDLY they use the term UNIVERSE. surely if ANYONE understood it was the multiverse, these characters, written by starlin, would be the ones, no?

i know i won't likely convince you, but . . . it was worth a shot. 🙂

The M Bodies are basically "containers" for a portion of the eccense of the Abstract Entity. It's power, what it represents, it's psyche, it's very being. Otherwise, it would not be able to represent itself accurately in the M Body. But, it can.

When Gamora jumped into the Eternity M Body (which was only about 40 or 50 ft tall), she was still, in eccense, leaping into the Universe, and obviously trusted that Eternity was going to get her where she needed to go.

First of all, Eternity DID NOT compact itself into a 40 ft form.
Nor did Eternity grow Gamora to infinite, Universal size.
And, if Gamora was just jumping into a big blob of 616 universe, when she jumped into Eternity, she would have had no idea where she would end up.
So, to take that scan literally, does not add up.

The M Bodies and the actual Abstracts are Linked. They ARE the entity.
That was never debated.

Please ignore anything else you all hear. The M Body situation is one that is SOLIDLY embeded in Marvel. There is no room for guessing, or wrong opinions.

Think of the M Bodies as a kind of a cross between a symbol of the abstract entity, and a portal to that entity's very being. It would seem that their power can flow out through the M Body, as well as act like a portal, allowing the TRUE entity to be effected as well.

But, make no mistake people. The Universe, the Living Tribunal, Death, Infinity, and all the other Abstract Entities are not 40 or 50 ft tall, nor are they compressing themselves into this view. These are Universal and Multiversal entities, not mailmen that show up in person on a regular basis.

Originally posted by leonidas
done, i think.

aside from all that, i know you really like that quote where thanos worries a lot about the 'others' who might attack him, but how do you explain away all these references and the many others that were made throughout the series?

again, these are perhaps the 2 most 'cosmically knowledgeable' characters in marvel, written by the cosmic guru himself, and yet REPEATEDLY they use the term UNIVERSE. surely if ANYONE understood it was the multiverse, these characters, written by starlin, would be the ones, no?

i know i won't likely convince you, but . . . it was worth a shot. 🙂

Originally posted by Horrificus
He effected A UNIVERSE. Period.
Please, people. Do not get talked into ignoring the words of the writers and the words on panel. This is simple.
He brought about the end of A universe.
That is all. The writer said it. The comic says it.
There is no reason to look into it anymore. If somebody has an arguement that is totally based upon me having to ignore what I am seeing and reading, I say that is a very POOR arguement.

I find it fascinating reading cosmic debates, as I tend to not no as much as others. I'm actually enjoying this 🙂

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait, so are you saying that you actually accept the LT scan where it's stated that he's present in ALL the multiversES simultaneously? Cause that is the way it's actually written in the comic.

are you saying you are ignoring the dozen other scans that say multiversE . . .? cuz they're all written in comics as well . . .

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait, so are you saying that you actually accept the LT scan where it's stated that he's present in ALL the multiversES simultaneously? Cause that is the way it's actually written in the comic.

Anyway, the fact is, if you believe that his position DOES include the entire Multivers, you almost have to believe when he said that he has a presence in every Universe. This could imply an M Body, or just the ability to spread his consciousness across all universes.

To argue it, goes against what has been shown, said, and is a lot like the whole M body verses actual body debate we are having.
Useless.

Originally posted by leonidas
are you saying you are ignoring the dozen other scans that say multiversE . . .? cuz they're all written in comics as well . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
but what if the m-body is manifest WITHIN the universe itself? what if someone entered him then?

They can't because the Universe is already open to them, and if he's conscious and aware, why would he let someone jump into him for no reason?

Originally posted by leonidas
i asked you before how can the m-body represent the entirety of the universe and still manifest WITHIN the universe. you said it was strange, but that's how it is.

And until proven otherwise On Panel, that's how it is still.

Originally posted by leonidas
what if it's not? what if some m-bodies are granted more power than others? that is of course speculation,

Speculation indeed.

Originally posted by leonidas
but it seems to make sense to me.

Not to me.

Originally posted by leonidas
when the m-body travels, does the whole universe go with it?

Yes, I already posted the scan, but here it is again:

The "M-bodys" of Eternity and Death are clearly passing from one Universe to another that's a VOID:

The "M-bodys" fills that VOID with Space and Time and all the necessary Concepts, and it becomes a Universe:

Originally posted by leonidas
is the whole universe in EACH of the 3 m-bodies that existed simultaneously in that quasar issue? how is THAT possible?

If you read that Quasar issue carefully you'll notice those OTHER "M-bodys" are meaningless:

"Eternity is so TRANSFINITE that there are Numerous Manisfestations of him here"
(He could be and probably is talking about Eternities of OTHER Universes, because in the Multi-verse there are an Infinite number of Eternitys)

"Our Dimension contains Reflections of EVERY MANIFESTATION we have EVER DONE"

"Well, could you point us to a RECENT ONE"
(Obviously MEANING the LEFT OVER Ones are USELESS to them)

And just to add this:

I wonder WHY Quasar, after getting his history lesson about "M-bodys" is ASKING for the REAL ETERNITY, NOT one of his "M-bodys"?

And hey what do you know, it just so happens to be "the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect of Eternity" .... AND ....

"You mean this Corresponds to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW?"

Again:

"Yeah, and this Aspect is of RIGHT VINTAGE ... So what's happening to it is GOING ON RIGHT NOW"

Where?

IN the UNIVERSE, like he clearly said.

Originally posted by leonidas
perhaps if an m-body is granted the full scope of eternity's power it WOULD end the universe if it was killed?

Which is why I posted more than a few scans of that very FACT taking place, I have more scans of Eternity getting rubbed out and the Universe getting the same treatment because of that, just let me know if you need to see those too.

Originally posted by leonidas
i just happen to think that description fits the examples better than saying each m-body has all of eternity's might.

I'm not using logic that sounds proper, On Panel Eternity dies/the Universe dies, Eternity is replaced by Thanos/ the Universe becomes Thanos (literally)

Originally posted by leonidas
what your saying also contradicts quasar's quest. if the m-body really IS 'all' of eternity, why was he searching for it despite finding a host of m-bodies?

It doesn't contradict it at all, you just missed the parts I just posted above, no need to repeat it.

Originally posted by leonidas
there is also the fact that many m-bodies have been destroyed in the past of OTHER abstracts (death, lt, to name a couple) but they always come back. if ALL their power were IN those m-bodies, then when those m-bodies were destroyed, the abstracts should ALSO have been destroyed. is eternity the ONLY abstract who uses 'full-power' m-bodies? just dosen't stand to reason for me, my friend.

And when was LT destroyed besides the End?

If your talking about the Non-Canon scenerio with Reed, LT was NOT destroyed AT ALL:

"This Device will create a Chain Reaction within a Cosmic Being, and harness the beings own power to HURL him through an Endless series of Dimensional Realities"

ALL Reed did, was blast the Cosmics, including LT into other dimesnsions. the Living Tribunal was NOT destroyed in anyway.

And Death:

When did Strange destroy Death?

"I am disappointed in you Strange, Don't you KNOW you CAN'T KILL DEATH"

Originally posted by leonidas
is eternity the ONLY abstract who uses 'full-power' m-bodies? just dosen't stand to reason for me, my friend.

Well you were using misinterpreted examples,

the Living Tribunal has NEVER been destroyed except by Thanos in the End, and Death has NEVER been destroyed except by pre-retcon Beyonder, and Thanos with the UN.

Originally posted by leonidas
to address your second post for a moment because it serves in part to speak to what i'm getting at: the fact that even after eternity was seen "unleashing ALL the Fury and Power his ONE M-body could muster" in that issue #5 you referenced, speaks to a very limited amount of power possessed by that m-body. after all, the attack only destroyed a simple planet. were eternity truly bringing ALL his power to bear, he could have 'mustered' a WHOLE lot more than that . . .

It was a concentrated attack aimed at Thanos and Thanos alone, and yet it was so powerful, that took out that Planet.

When ALL the great powers attacked Thanos simultaneously in issue#6, I'm sure they could've taken out the Universe, but it was a concentrated attack aimed at Thanos alone.

Originally posted by leonidas
i knew THIS question was waiting for me too. you're obviously correct in assuming that it was NOT mentioned in quasar #37. it WAS however SHOWN. here again, like eternity, we see at least 2 lt m-bodiesexisting simultaneously:

the famous meeting with the cosmics in IG. the almost equally famous meeting with the beyonder.

Which is really inconsequential, because LT is everywhere simultaneously:

And this has NOTHING to do with "M-bodys"

And the Eternity scan with Beyonder is NOT from Quasar#37.

What's going on there, hmm.

Originally posted by leonidas
like eternity, BOTH m-bodies cannot POSSIBLY possess the full power of the abstract.

No doubt, especially when it's NOT even the same Comic Book.

So tell me where your getting the Beyonder scan from, cause it sure ain't Quasar #37.

Originally posted by leonidas
even in that scan where reed blows lt away, obviously lt was not 'really' destroyed, only the m-body was.

Actually I already proved that you didn't have the full story there,

neither LT nor any of the other Abstracts were "destroyed" ... they were mearely thrown into other dimensions, nothing more.

Originally posted by leonidas
if that's not enough, even your favourite website claims that lt has an m-body in every universe. (yah, i know -- you HATE bios. i just threw it in as a minor additional confirmation,

Please, bios... No no no....

Originally posted by leonidas
but seeing multiple lt m-bodies existing at once is pretty conclusive, imho.)

Only you can't prove those are "M-bodys" in any shape or form, and until you show me On Panel LT being declared as an "M-body" ...were just going to have to except the On Panel evidence that LT does Exist SIMULTANEOUSLY EVERYWHERE, and it has Nothing to do with "M -bodys".

Originally posted by leonidas
lt, infinity and eternity DID resist him more than the others though. and some of the other entities i referred to (ie the vishanti) are said to be multiversal in scope of power. they would be more of a threat than the assembled friggin' heroes at least! (heroes?? what the hell were they even DOING there??)

The Vishanti are no more a threat than the Heroes compared to a HOTI Thanos.

"Multiversal?"

Outside of their Realm they're nobodies.

Originally posted by Horrificus
The M Bodies are basically "containers" for a portion of the eccense of the Abstract Entity. It's power, what it represents, it's psyche, it's very being. Otherwise, it would not be able to represent itself accurately in the M Body. But, it can.

Where On Panel has this ever been mentioned?

Originally posted by Horrificus
When Gamora jumped into the Eternity M Body (which was only about 40 or 50 ft tall), she was still, in eccense, leaping into the Universe, and obviously trusted that Eternity was going to get her where she needed to go.

First of all, Eternity DID NOT compact itself into a 40 ft form.
Nor did Eternity grow Gamora to infinite, Universal size.
And, if Gamora was just jumping into a big blob of 616 universe, when she jumped into Eternity, she would have had no idea where she would end up.

Interesting,

unfortunately Eternity was in a COMA! CATATONIC, so how Gamora "trusted Eternity to get her where she needed to go" is a mystery, since Eternity couldn't even move, talk or think, he was well ... CATATONIC!

"But Eternity has already fallen VICTIM to the Magus and stands before us in a CATATONIC STATE"

"Then you must INDEPENDENTLY FIND a way to Free him from this condition"

(Eternity WASN'T and DIDN'T get anyone anywhere)

Originally posted by Horrificus
So, to take that scan literally, does not add up.

I guess it does.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Please ignore anything else you all hear. There is no room for guessing, or wrong opinions.

Like Gamora "obviously trusting that (a CATATONIC) Eternity was going to get her where she needed to go."

I agree.

Originally posted by Horrificus
The M Body situation is one that is SOLIDLY embeded in Marvel.

No one is disputing that, but the "M-bodys" are the Concepts not some fraction of the Concept.

No one has proven otherwise with On Panel evidence.

Ok, so the entire Universe was 40 ft tall, in a coma, and Gamora jumped into the center of the universe, knew exactly where she was going, and was able to get there.

That is NOT the answer.

The whole purpose of the M Body is so the whole Universe does not have to be involved.

I will have the answers and the proof to the rest tomorrow.
I'm tired.

Remember : You speak of COMICS writers.
Universe, Multiverse and even Omniverse can be used as generic names.
Universe can be used for Multiverse and Omniverse. Omniverse for Multiverse. And i'm pretty sure the "Omniverse" from Captain Britain is just a Multiverse.

Don't be warsies.

Oh, and don't speculate too much on M-Body : It's not because an Abstract is not killed when is boby is destroyed that M-Body is involved : Read Fantastic.

Double post, sorry. Moderator ?

Originally posted by Horrificus
Ok, so the entire Universe was 40 ft tall, in a coma, and Gamora jumped into the center of the universe, knew exactly where she was going, and was able to get there.

Is this a rebuttal or a concurrence?

Originally posted by Horrificus
That is NOT the answer.

So it was a rebuttal.

Originally posted by Horrificus
That is NOT the answer.

According to who though?

Your willingness to willfully ignore the On Panel EVIDENCE?

Or ... the On Panel EVIDENCE that was artistically depicting Gamora entering a 40ft tall Eternity (who was in a Coma) and ending up inside the Infinite Universe?

Originally posted by Horrificus
The whole purpose of the M Body is so the whole Universe does not have to be involved.

And WHERE On Panel is this stated?

Originally posted by Horrificus
I will have the answers and the proof to the rest tomorrow.

You haven't even legitimately answered the First, and your moving on to the rest?

There are some good points being brought up as to whether or not a universe was absorbed, or a Multiverse was absorbed...

Do I believe that a Multiverse was absorbed? ✅

The reason I believe this, is because once Thanos began comprehending that there was an astral cancer of sorts, he realized that ALL life would be destroyed.

In his own words:

"Once in the throes of nihilistic madness, I had offered the universe to Mistress Death as a love token."

"Now, in horror I realized that even SHE would fall victim to the approaching termination."

"For in the absence of Life, there can be NO DEATH"

Now, we know that Death exists in every universe in the Multiverse, so surely if all life were to be absent in only ONE universe, she would not be threatened at all...... Hell when Thanos had the IG Death WANTED him to destroy half the population of a universe to even things out a bit.....

So to fix this astral problem, ask yourself what Thanos would have had to absorb and recreate in order to save Death herself from "falling victim to the approaching termination"

A Multiverse perhaps? 😄

I will have an answer guys, so don't think that this horrible guy has given up. Hehe. You wish.

It's tough keeping track ofall the good points you guys are throwing at me.

My new laptop tooka dump. Troubleshooting all day.

MM, are u using Voodoo on the poor H-man?! HHmmm?

Just kidding.

I also have to agree with the masters guy, when thanos absorbed eternity and infinity he considered the rest of the cosmos a threat to him, and since no one can dispute masters scans showing eternity being the universe like 6 times, there's no reason to believe the eternity and infinity thanos absorbed was anything but the 616 universe.
After he absorbed one universe which was eternity and infinity, he continued on to absorb the rest of the multiverse.
I read quasar 37 and I also didn't see anywhere were it says m-bodys are a fraction of the whole, I never saw any equation being stamped on the m-bodys, only that they are representations of the abstract concept, and masters scans have convinced me that eternity is the universe, literally.

nice job masters thumbup1