Marvel Universe: THE END Discussion Thread

Originally posted by Mr Master
And until proven otherwise On Panel, that's how it is still.

you've SEEN multiple m-bodies existing simultaneously in the dimension of manifestations. the comatose eternity was the recent one at the one, but all the others existed AT THE SAME TIME. the comatose eternity would STILL be in the dimension of M currently, were it visited now. but you never answered the question of how can they ALL exist at the same time and still ALL be the 'entirety' of the universe? you said something about the other eternities being 'other eternities throughout the multiverse? to quote you: speculation indeed . . .

beyond that, the manifester clearly states in that quasar issue that he is the manifester for this 'dimension'. in this case i assume he means universe (more of that unreliable terminology) but there is no way i will accept that dimension was substituted for MULTIVERSE . . .

Yes, I already posted the scan, but here it is again:

The "M-bodys" of Eternity and Death are clearly passing from one Universe to another that's a VOID:

but if as you claim the universe came with him, why a big bang and the birth of a NEW universe? wouldn't etenity's universe have simply been released? actually, the scans look vaguely familar. what book are they from? then i can see if i can find out what happened to the universe eternity left behind, who's narrating and where is he telling the story from. i'd also like to know why eternity left whatever universe he was in.

If you read that Quasar issue carefully you'll notice those OTHER "M-bodys" are meaningless:

meaningless? not sure why they would be. they still exist simultaneously with the others. clearly time is meaningless in the dimension of m -- all things exist at once. it's the fact that they exist that gives the impression that not all the m-bodies can contain ALL the power of eternity.

"Well, could you point us to a RECENT ONE"
(Obviously MEANING the LEFT OVER Ones are USELESS to them)

i don't think that's what he meant at all. after all, he was directed to a version of eternity that was meeting with lt. and when faced with that m-body, q said to that m-body:

"I wonder if you might direct me to the SPIRITUAL ENTITY that you REPRESENT."

clearly the m-body is an INCOMPLETE eternity as it does NOT house the spiritual essence of eternity.

And just to add this:

I wonder WHY Quasar, after getting his history lesson about "M-bodys" is ASKING for the REAL ETERNITY, NOT one of his "M-bodys"?

yes . . .? 😕 because . . . the REAL eternity does not exist within ANY m-body. that's what i've been saying. the spiritual consciousness does NOT reside within the m-body. that's born out by his commenst to the m-body he saw before lt.

"Yeah, and this Aspect is of RIGHT VINTAGE ... So what's happening to it is GOING ON RIGHT NOW"

Where?

IN the UNIVERSE, like he clearly said.

you sound like i'm implying there is no connection between the m-body and the universe. that most definitely is NOT what i'm saying. i AM saying that m-bodies are NOT the entirety of the universe. if an m-body WAS the 'whole universe' there wouldn't be more than one in existence, nor would there be a NEED for any more than a SINGLE m-body. and yet, clearly eternity had manifested itself a body many many times and the bodies are are dispatched BY THE MANIFESTER (not the abstract) anywhere in the universe. how could they manifest the entire univserse WITHIN the universe? just makes no sense when it is so easily dealt with byb saying the m-body is a representation of the universe, but not the essence of the universe in its totality.

even the m-body ITSELF is NOT the abstract, but is rather the manifester's people. the manifester speaking to quasar:

"My people and i are living fractals, able to shape ourselves in an infinite manner. WE SERVE as the manifestation-bodies for beings who have no physical forms."

they serve as m-bodies to allow abstracts to interact at a physical level.

I'm not using logic that sounds proper, On Panel Eternity dies/the Universe dies, Eternity is replaced by Thanos/ the Universe becomes Thanos (literally)

and yet the m-body remained in stasis after thanos usurped the position. how could the m-body of eternity BE the universe if THANOS was the universe? the m-body is merely a representation, and nothing more.

It doesn't contradict it at all, you just missed the parts I just posted above, no need to repeat it.

it STILL contradicts. qusar ASKED an m-body to tell him where the spiritual entity the m-body represents was at.

And when was LT destroyed besides the End?

fair enough. seems reed did not destroy the m-body. rather he scattered it around dimsensions. odd. too odd to bother getting into . . .

And Death:

When did Strange destroy Death?

Well you were using misinterpreted examples,

😕

the scan BEFORE the one you chose to paste is the one where strange blows death's body apart . . .

Death has NEVER been destroyed except by pre-retcon Beyonder, and Thanos with the UN.

i never said death had been destroyed -- i said death's m-bodies had been destroyed in the past. beyond that, here's a scan of malestrom 'killing' anomaly:

of course, in issue #37 quasar admits that it was an m-body of the abstract anomaly that was killed by malestrom, not the abstract itself . . .

m-bodies can die while leaving the abstract unharmed.

It was a concentrated attack aimed at Thanos and Thanos alone, and yet it was so powerful, that took out that Planet.

that's your opinion and of course you're welcome to it. a full, burst of power by eternity should STILL do more than bust one planet. or if he REALLY wanted to concentrate it, he could have done more.

Which is really inconsequential, because LT is everywhere simultaneously:

And this has NOTHING to do with "M-bodys"

really? then why is lt IN the dimension of manifestations?? TWICE, simultaneously? (oops -- that beyonder scan is issue #38, btw -- it's a continiuation from 37 . . .) the contemplator even says:

"It would appear to be a hearing, or trial. That entity sitting in judgement represents the living tribunal." represents. not "IS". it is a manifestation of lt.

neither LT nor any of the other Abstracts were "destroyed" ... they were mearely thrown into other dimensions, nothing more.

strange DID blow apart death's first m-body, and malestrom DID 'kill' the m-body of anomaly.

Only you can't prove those are "M-bodys" in any shape or form, and until you show me On Panel LT being declared as an "M-body"

hmm, you swung my opinion on the UN's destruction of the multiverse not on any one scan (though one did play a bigger part than others) but rather on the whole CONTEXT of the stories. here we have an entire issue dedicated to m-bodies, set in the realm of manifestations, and we see lt not once, but TWICE, and you still say they are NOT m-bodies?

to use another of your favourites: as you wish. 🙂

Outside of their Realm they're nobodies.

they battled the tetrarchs OUTSIDE their realm and were STILL enormously powerful. 😉

you still have not addressed the constant use of universe by the most cosmically knowledgeable people and and witers in the game. 🙂

Originally posted by unknowable
I also have to agree with the masters guy, when thanos absorbed eternity and infinity he considered the rest of the cosmos a threat to him, and since no one can dispute masters scans showing eternity being the universe like 6 times, there's no reason to believe the eternity and infinity thanos absorbed was anything but the 616 universe.
After he absorbed one universe which was eternity and infinity, he continued on to absorb the rest of the multiverse.
I read quasar 37 and I also didn't see anywhere were it says m-bodys are a fraction of the whole, I never saw any equation being stamped on the m-bodys, only that they are representations of the abstract concept, and masters scans have convinced me that eternity is the universe, literally.

nice job masters thumbup1

the universe was erath 4321, apparently, not 616. the battle took place in 4321 earth. now, if he DID absorb all of 4321 as you say, why was there not a void left behind? we've seen mm post scans of eternity being wiped out in the past. when he's wiped out, there is NOTHING left -- just a void. so why, if ALL of 4321 was absorbed, was there no void replacing that universe?

Originally posted by leonidas
you've SEEN multiple m-bodies existing simultaneously in the dimension of manifestations. the comatose eternity was the recent one at the one, but all the others existed AT THE SAME TIME. the comatose eternity would STILL be in the dimension of M currently, were it visited now. but you never answered the question of how can they ALL exist at the same time and still ALL be the 'entirety' of the universe?

And the answer is that the OLDER or FORMER Manifestations are NOT current or meaningful M-bodys of Eternity.

There are ONLY TWO Manifestations of Eternity during the ENTIRE issue of Quasar #37, This One:

When Warlock was on Trial, which took place in FEBRUARY 92' (Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1)

And this one:

Of the Comatose Eternity, which took place in June 92' (Infinity War #1)

HOW is this taking place at the same time, when these events are separated by 5 MONTHS and have NO relations whatsoever?

In FACT, the only correspondence of these TWO events with THIS issue of Quasar #37, is the Comatose Eternity coincidentally. (which is a Cross-Over of the Infinity War Arc)

And I might add, Warlock gave up the Infinity Gems WAY BEFORE Eternity was Comatose by Magus.

Quasar interrupted a TRIAL, that had already taken place.

Originally posted by leonidas
you said something about the other eternities being 'other eternities throughout the multiverse? to quote you: speculation indeed . . .

beyond that, the manifester clearly states in that quasar issue that he is the manifester for this 'dimension'. in this case i assume he means universe (more of that unreliable terminology) but there is no way i will accept that dimension was substituted for MULTIVERSE . . .

Actually, he said "OF THIS Dimension"

AND,

There is ONLY ONE Dimension of Manifestation, and it is the Realm of the Living Tribunal (the Fractals just work there)

So it is quite conceivable, that Other manifestations of Eternity, are indeed of OTHER Universes.

Also, I just remembered your entry of Magus making M-bodys.

You do realize that Magus was NOT in 616 at this point right?

What does that tell you, that again, indeed beings of OTHER/DIFFERENT Universes can dwell within the Dimension of Manifestation simultaneously.

Originally posted by leonidas
but if as you claim the universe came with him, why a big bang and the birth of a NEW universe? wouldn't etenity's universe have simply been released?

huh?

Re-read the scan.

That's exactly what happened, Eternity and Death released the Universe they were, and became the Universe of that Void.

It's only a New Universe because there was NO Universe there to begin with, the Big Bang is just an explosion that flows outward from a central point, causing Stars and stuff of Stars to hurled in every direction. (that's straight from the scan)

Originally posted by leonidas
actually, the scans look vaguely familar. what book are they from? then i can see if i can find out what happened to the universe eternity left behind, who's narrating and where is he telling the story from. i'd also like to know why eternity left whatever universe he was in.

I'll gladly fill you in.

The Human Race had evolved due to machinations by the High Evolutionary.
His Biology Altering genetic Bomb exploded over the Earth, evolving all life on Earth to it's next step.

The Mutants, were enhanced even further since they are already a Genetic superiority to Humans, they became "the godlike Ones"

To summarize,

"the godlike ones" decided to merge with Eternity to influence him to become another Universe, so the "the godlike ones" merged with the Inhumans and then merged with Death, together they merged with Eternity, and that's why they left that Universe to become another somewhere else.

The rest of Humanity all became ONE:

A Power in their own right, and then Humanity became ONE with the Earth:

This is interesting:

Guess WHO Eternity & Death were that BECAME that Universe?

"From Space, the MANIFESTATION of the Entity"

As for WHAT happened to the Universe when Eternity left?

Why it imploded of course, because Eternity IS, WAS and ALWAYS will be EVERY Universe in the Multi-verses

What if v2. #1 (What if the Avengers had lost the Evolutionary War)

Originally posted by leonidas
meaningless? not sure why they would be. they still exist simultaneously with the others. clearly time is meaningless in the dimension of m -- all things exist at once. it's the fact that they exist that gives the impression that not all the m-bodies can contain ALL the power of eternity.

But again,

your basing your argument on just TWO separate Manifestations AND, they WEREN'T even happening in the same Timeframe.

The ONLY M-body of Eternity that had significance and Power, was the Comatose M-body.

I mean, I don't remember seeing Quasar passing by during Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1, where the TRIAL was taking place.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think that's what he meant at all. after all, he was directed to a version of eternity that was meeting with lt. and when faced with that m-body, q said to that m-body:

[b]"I wonder if you might direct me to the SPIRITUAL ENTITY that you REPRESENT."

clearly the m-body is an INCOMPLETE eternity as it does NOT house the spiritual essence of eternity.

yes . . .? 😕 because . . . the REAL eternity does not exist within ANY m-body. that's what i've been saying. the spiritual consciousness does NOT reside within the m-body. that's born out by his commenst to the m-body he saw before lt. [/B]

Really?

Then what does this mean?

"Since there's nothing to be done for this zoned-out MANIFESTATION of Eternity"

"Avengers are about to launch an assault on the Cosmic Muckamuck they figure DID THIS to the TEMPORAL SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE HERE"

I know you know what TEMPORAL means...

This is why Quasar asked Infinity for the REAL ETERNITY, because the Comatose M-body was of "RIGHT VINTAGE", it "Corresponded to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW" it was "the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect of Eternity"

Which makes it, the "Spiritual Essence/Consciousness of ETERNITY, just like Quasar himself said, the "TEMPORAL SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE"

Originally posted by leonidas
you sound like i'm implying there is no connection between the m-body and the universe. that most definitely is NOT what i'm saying. i AM saying that m-bodies are NOT the entirety of the universe.

I proved otherwise.

Originally posted by leonidas
if an m-body WAS the 'whole universe' there wouldn't be more than one in existence, nor would there be a NEED for any more than a SINGLE m-body.

You yourself brought Quasar issues as your ammunition,

so

Like Quasar said,

"the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect of Eternity"

"You mean this Corresponds to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW?"

"Yeah, and this Aspect is of RIGHT VINTAGE ... So what's happening to it is GOING ON RIGHT NOW"

AND the quote that solidifies ALL this:

"Avengers are about to launch an assault on the Cosmic Muckamuck they figure DID THIS to the TEMPORAL SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE HERE"

Originally posted by leonidas
and yet, clearly eternity had manifested itself a body many many times and the bodies are are dispatched BY THE MANIFESTER (not the abstract) anywhere in the universe. how could they manifest the entire univserse WITHIN the universe? just makes no sense when it is so easily dealt with byb saying the m-body is a representation of the universe, but not the essence of the universe in its totality.

Like Quasar said,

"the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect of Eternity"

"You mean this Corresponds to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW?"

"Yeah, and this Aspect is of RIGHT VINTAGE ... So what's happening to it is GOING ON RIGHT NOW"

AND the quote that solidifies ALL this:

"Avengers are about to launch an assault on the Cosmic Muckamuck they figure DID THIS to the TEMPORAL SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE HERE"

Originally posted by leonidas
even the m-body ITSELF is NOT the abstract, but is rather the manifester's people. the manifester speaking to quasar:

[b]"My people and i are living fractals, able to shape ourselves in an infinite manner. WE SERVE as the manifestation-bodies for beings who have no physical forms."

they serve as m-bodies to allow abstracts to interact at a physical level. [/B]

yea,

he also said,

"We have a SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP with the Abstract Beings, an EXCHANGE of ENERGIES that you physicals would not comprehend"

"SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP" .... "EXCHANGE of ENERGIES"?

They may serve as the M-bodys, but the Abstracts transfer their power to the FORM the Fractals produce.

Which makes sense, and EXPLAINS HOW Thanos became the Universe after taking Eternity's M-body's place, and the many, many OTHER Examples of Eternity's M-body being the actual UNIVERSE.

Originally posted by leonidas
and yet the m-body remained in stasis after thanos usurped the position. how could the m-body of eternity BE the universe if THANOS was the universe? the m-body is merely a representation, and nothing more.

So I should except YOUR opinion/speculation/theory, OVER what I saw On Panel?

AIN'T gonna happen,

Again:

Thanos has THOROUGHLY USURPED ETERNITY'S Rightful POSITION as the CENTER of ALL REALITY"

Originally posted by leonidas
it STILL contradicts. qusar ASKED an m-body to tell him where the spiritual entity the m-body represents was at.

I proved conclusively that he was headed in the right direction, and did indeed FIND the Spiritual Entity the M-body represents, which was the Comatose Eternity M-body.

Originally posted by leonidas
the scan BEFORE the one you chose to paste is the one where strange blows death's body apart . . .

I think not:

You call that "blown apart?"

I don't know how many times I seen Mistress Death as a Skeleton beneath it's veil.

Originally posted by leonidas
i never said death had been destroyed -- i said death's m-bodies had been destroyed in the past.

Besides pre-retcon Beyonder, and Thanos with the UN, when else?

btw, Death NEVER came back after these TWO incidents.

Well, Beyonder re-created Death.

Originally posted by leonidas
beyond that, here's a scan of malestrom 'killing' anomaly:

of course, in issue #37 quasar admits that it was an m-body of the abstract anomaly that was killed by malestrom, not the abstract itself . . .

"Must've been an M-Body he slew"

This isn't a concrete statement, Quasar isn't even sure of the FACTS there.

Originally posted by leonidas
m-bodies can die while leaving the abstract unharmed.

Tell that the truck load of Eternitys that have died and thus the Universe suffering the same fate.

Originally posted by leonidas
really? then why is lt IN the dimension of manifestations?? TWICE, simultaneously? (oops -- that beyonder scan is issue #38, btw -- it's a continiuation from 37 . . .) the contemplator even says:

"It would appear to be a hearing, or trial. That entity sitting in judgement represents the living tribunal." represents. not "IS". it is a manifestation of lt.

And like I proved with the Warlock TRIAL that took place 5 MONTHS before Eternity became Catatonic, evidently there are events that take place in the Dimension of Manifestation that not in accordance with TIME.

On top of this, WHEN and WHERE the heck is that incident with the Beyonder taking place anyway?

Originally posted by leonidas
strange DID blow apart death's first m-body,

Negative.

Originally posted by leonidas
and malestrom DID 'kill' the m-body of anomaly.

Supposedly.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, you swung my opinion on the UN's destruction of the multiverse not on any one scan (though one did play a bigger part than others) but rather on the whole CONTEXT of the stories. here we have an entire issue dedicated to m-bodies, set in the realm of manifestations, and we see lt not once, but TWICE, and you still say they are NOT m-bodies?

I explained myself extensively just now,

there are M-bodys, and M-bodys, and the MOST RECENT ones are the Abstract themselves taken FORM by the Fractals.

Eternity & Infinity were absorbed by Thanos in the End, and that was the first Universe he absorbed, then he moved on to the rest of the Multi-verse.

Originally posted by leonidas
to use another of your favourites: as you wish.

As the On Panel proof presents, my friend.

Originally posted by leonidas
they battled the tetrarchs OUTSIDE their realm and were STILL enormously powerful.

Your kidding right?

Originally posted by leonidas
you still have not addressed the constant use of universe by the most cosmically knowledgeable people and and witers in the game.

Because I proved before that the term, "Universe" can stand for "Multi-verse" in Marvel.

Here AGAIN,

Scans of ENTROPY (the M-BODY) CREATING/BECOMING the New ETERNITY which is the UNIVERSE,

and yes, the UNIVERSE IS .....

the M-BODY of ETERNITY!

This is HOW GENIS-VELL helped ENTROPY, GENIS shot ENTROPY (with Entropy's consent) and ENTROPY exploded into a UNIVERSE

Well well well, guess WHO is the Actual UNIVERSE ENTIRE?

You guessed it folks,

ETERNITY AGAIN!

HOW much MORE Proof can I post?

Originally posted by leonidas
the universe was erath 4321, apparently, not 616. the battle took place in 4321 earth.

First off, where On Panel is this 4321 Universe mentioned?

If that isn't 616, why is Thanos reminiscing about his time with the Cosmic Cube?

If that isn't 616, why is Thanos reminiscing about his time with the Infinity Gauntlet?

If that isn't 616, why is Thanos reminiscing about his time when he died and became Death's servant?

And don't tell me that perhaps an "Alternate Version" coincidentally happened to have the EXACT same experiences as Thanos 616.

As you know, that's why they are termed "Alternate" because they are different, as ALL What Ifs prove, in one form or another a character's History has changed.

Originally posted by leonidas
now, if he DID absorb all of 4321 as you say, why was there not a void left behind? we've seen mm post scans of eternity being wiped out in the past. when he's wiped out, there is NOTHING left -- just a void. so why, if ALL of 4321 was absorbed, was there no void replacing that universe?

That's an easy one,

because Thanos never stopped and allowed a Void to appear, he consecutively absorbed the 616 Universe (Eternity/Infinity) and transitioned right into absorbing the Multi-verse.

After he absorbs LT and the 616 Universe Thanos says,

"Until this Inferno raged completely Out of Control"

"Not even Victory could quiet the Turmoil within me"

Thanos NEVER stopped, he absorbed everything in one seamless flow:

Until...

"Nothing Remained"

I did not know what to quote so I'll just say wow masters, WoW!

you amaze me again great job thumbsup

Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]And the answer is that the OLDER or FORMER Manifestations are NOT current or meaningful M-bodys of Eternity.

HOW is this taking place at the same time, when these events are separated by 5 MONTHS and have NO relations whatsoever?

i truly cannot grasp how they are 'meaningless'. quasar was almost killed by the m-body that was sent at him because he was interferring where he was not supposed to. time was meaningless in the dimension of m. we saw THREE (not 2) seperate eternities all existing in the dimension at the same time. (one was with the beyonder, one was in a coma and the other was with lt . . .) the comatose m-body was comatose because the ACTUAL spirit was placed in a coma -- obviously the m-body would reflect that.

i still don't think you're clear on what i'm saying about m-bodies: they ARE the 'essence' of the abstract. but they CAN vary. you don't believe strange 'killed' that death m-body that's fine. i showed you LOADS of other m-bodies of death EXISTING SIDE-BY-SIDE (doesn't get much more simultaneous than that as they were all SEEN at the same instant -- do ALL those m-bodies possess ALL of death's power . . .?) on the first page, you choose not to believe that quasar knows what he's talking about when speaking of anomaly, you say the other m-bodies in the dimension are meaningless (still not sure why when they were able to act independent of the INITIAL surroundings) . . .

have you ever seen the universe ended WITHOUT showing the eternity m-body . . .? because i don't seem to recall seeing the m-body of multi-eternity being absorbed by thanos, or multi-eternity even resisting him. surely if a singular eternity could resist, MULTI could do so even more . . .

anyway, like i said: i think they ARE the essence of the spiritual being they represent. but the body can be affected while the 'consciousness' remains unaffected. in that way, the body can be killed or destroyed, while the 'essence' remains untouched. if someone is OUTSIDE eternity and wanted to REACH the essence, they would clearly have to go inside the m-body, but the 'essence' can still be acting independent of the body itself. what affects the m-body DOES NOT NECESSARILY AFFECT THE ESSENCE OF THAT ABSTRACT.

in a nutshell, that's basically what i'm trying to say. in your scans where the universe is destroyed, it is clear that the consciousness is ALSO destroyed. the m-body is meaningless -- the consciousness is EVERYTHING. that's why when thanos usurped eternity's position, the m-body remained, inert and useless. because the consciousness of eternity had been thrust aside and replaced.

Quasar interrupted a TRIAL, that had already taken place.

but the m-bodies were STILL current and still 'functioning' as though the events were occuring 'now'. quasar's interference angered lt and a NEW event sprung from it. were the event REPLAYED, we likely WOULD see quasar present.

Actually, he said "OF THIS Dimension"

There is ONLY ONE Dimension of Manifestation, and it is the Realm of the Living Tribunal (the Fractals just work there)

how exactly does that scan prove there is only ONE dimension of manifestations? stands to reason that lt WOULD appear in the 616 dimension of m if that's where he was needed. where else would he manifest . . .?

So it is quite conceivable, that Other manifestations of Eternity, are indeed of OTHER Universes.

again speculation (which is fine . . . i just happen to disagree with that particular speculation) but it is no more factual than my claim that m-bodies can possess different amounts of power within them. my notion has SOME basis in fact as quasar asks:

"How much input does a being have with how they're represented?"

the manifester answers: "It varies. As much as they want." he then shows q an m-body of mistress love drawn from q's mind.

Also, I just remembered your entry of Magus making M-bodys.

You do realize that Magus was NOT in 616 at this point right?

yes . . .

What does that tell you, that again, indeed beings of OTHER/DIFFERENT Universes can dwell within the Dimension of Manifestation simultaneously.

i'll not get back into THAT old debate. you think somehow that the 'barren region' of space magus claimed as his own was outside the 616. i absolutely do not. so to you he was outside the universe. to me he was not. this is not the place to rehash that old classic. 😬

Originally posted by Mr Master
What if v2. #1 (What if the Avengers had lost the Evolutionary War)

what if . . .? 😕 anyway, i'll check out the issue, but as a what if, it's not relevent anyway . . .

btw, it looks like the earth was left at the end even after eternity headed out of town. is that what happened? how could it have if that earth was part of eternity?

Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]Here AGAIN,

the M-BODY of ETERNITY!

they are OUTSIDE eternity/the universe. how ELSE could they envision the universe UNLESS it were an m-body? the universe is boundless, the m-body is defined and physical. the purpose of the m-body is to allow a physical being to see and interact with the abstract. it REPRESENTS the abstract and it's representation can vary. that does not mean that it is the entirety of the abstract. i've tried to explain this a couple times. fine by me if you disagree. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
First off, where On Panel is this 4321 Universe mentioned?[

i suspect you know it was in the handbook on ahkenaten. but you also know i tend to follow most of what is in the official books -- at least i don't dismiss what they say. if marvel believes it was 4321, that's fine by me. and the timeline could EASILY have diverged with the coming of akenaten. up until then the universes could have been exact duplicates. but after that . . .

That's an easy one,

because Thanos never stopped and allowed a Void to appear, he consecutively absorbed the 616 Universe (Eternity/Infinity) and transitioned right into absorbing the Multi-verse.

hmmm . . . you can believe that, that's cool. i also never saw multi-eternity struggling against him OR saw multi-eternity absorbed. seems you're saying the multiverse or a universe can be absorbed or destroyed while SOMETIMES showing the m-body being destroyed, but at other times, it doesn't matter if we see the m-body being destroyed. that seems like picking and choosing to me and choosing whatever outcome best fits your postulation. kinda like saying sometimes the m-body DOES represent the universe/multiverse, sometimes it doesn't. if a postulation is that open-ended, it's rather easy to defend . . .

to me it's easier to say an incomplete m-body was destroyed, followed by the consciousness of the universe. you've seen multiple m-bodies existing at once (lt, eternity and death in particular) as well as hearing qusar's own thoughts on the death of anomaly and its m-body. you saw q ask the m-body of eternity if it knew where the essence of it was. it's even said that the manifesters ARE the m-body not the abstract themselves (though some 'energy transfer' tales place . . .)

frankly, i'm not sure how much more proof I can show.

.

Originally posted by Galan007
There are some good points being brought up as to whether or not a universe was absorbed, or a Multiverse was absorbed...

Do I believe that a Multiverse was absorbed? ✅

The reason I believe this, is because once Thanos began comprehending that there was an astral cancer of sorts, he realized that ALL life would be destroyed.

In his own words:

"Once in the throes of nihilistic madness, I had offered the universe to Mistress Death as a love token."

"Now, in horror I realized that even [b]SHE would fall victim to the approaching termination."

"For in the absence of Life, there can be NO DEATH"

Now, we know that Death exists in every universe in the Multiverse, so surely if all life were to be absent in only ONE universe, she would not be threatened at all...... Hell when Thanos had the IG Death WANTED him to destroy half the population of a universe to even things out a bit.....

So to fix this astral problem, ask yourself what Thanos would have had to absorb and recreate in order to save Death herself from "falling victim to the approaching termination"

A Multiverse perhaps? 😄 [/B]

i good thought, galen, but it had ALWAYS been 616 death that thanos loved. now you're saying that it was multi-death he was in love with? that's not a leap i'll make, thanks. or at the least he believes he could just as easily love a DIFFERENT aspect of death? not for me, that theory.

if 616 was destroyed, 616 death would be destroyed. other universal death aspects would surive across the multiverse, but why would thanos care? he fell in love with 616 death and wanted to save 616. as seen at the conclusion, death exists outside the bounds of 616 somehow. to say otherwise, and say it was multi-death that appeared at the end, is to say death actually exists outside the MULTIVERSE. easy to say she operates outside a universe, but outside the multiverse?? sorry, bro, even though neither is i suppose conclusively proveable, i'm personally not buying that thought. 😬

Originally posted by darthgoober
But those other instances don't actually contradict that scan. He IS in charge of the multiverse(under TOAA of course). That's true. But very few beings would be concerned with whatever is going on in another multiverse anyway. So unless it's actually stated somewhere that his jurisdiction is actually limited to a single multiverse, then no conflicting evidence exist, and the scan is therefore valid. That scan of LT is unique, because it is a scan of a cosmic level entity who is relearning the structure of Marvel(because much of her former life as the Beyonder was illusionary ). That kind of thing doesn't really happen every day(and to my knowledge, it's the only time it's happened on panel, but I could be wrong about that).

I'd say yes, it's canon, and no, it wasn't a multiversal thing ... Thanos only gained control over a single Universe ... which appeared to be the 616 Marvel U.

Even if it was a different U, every character and event up until that point was identical to the 616 U.

There's no reason to believe it wouldn't be canon.

Originally posted by Scoobless
I'd say yes, it's canon, and no, it wasn't a multiversal thing ... Thanos only gained control over a single Universe ... which appeared to be the 616 Marvel U.

Even if it was a different U, every character and event up until that point was identical to the 616 U.

There's no reason to believe it wouldn't be canon.

do you have a partner yet for the tournament, cuz i'm thinking i might make myself available just for you . . .

😄

and goober -- logically speaking you're right. i don't suppose there is any definitive way to say that multiverses WASN'T intentionally meant (as opposed to an error) and it may turn out some day that your opinion is born out in an actual story, but, dr strange knows . . . a thing or 2 about the multiverse, and watchers as well, and galactus (in fact, mm may still hold the belief that watchers look out over ALL multiverses, but i'm not sure if he still holds that belief) and in EVERY OTHER APPEARANCE, regardless of who he is with (even warlock with the IG) or who is writing said story, he is referred to as the MULTIVERSAL judge. to me the evidence is far too overwhelming. the fact that the IG gems worked in the ultraverse and contradicted his decree also lends support to the idea that his decisions do not extend across the omniverse. i'll take 'action' and an entire storyline, over one example from a back up story that may have been nothing more than an error.

but of course, you're welcome to your opinion. i'm not necessarily trying to change your mind, just telling you why i feel the contrary is true. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
do you have a partner yet for the tournament, cuz i'm thinking i might make myself available just for you . . .

😄

and goober -- logically speaking you're right. i don't suppose there is any definitive way to say that multiverses WASN'T intentionally meant (as opposed to an error) and it may turn out some day that your opinion is born out in an actual story, but, dr strange knows . . . a thing or 2 about the multiverse, and watchers as well, and galactus (in fact, mm may still hold the belief that watchers look out over ALL multiverses, but i'm not sure if he still holds that belief) and in EVERY OTHER APPEARANCE, regardless of who he is with (even warlock with the IG) or who is writing said story, he is referred to as the MULTIVERSAL judge. to me the evidence is far too overwhelming. the fact that the IG gems worked in the ultraverse and contradicted his decree also lends support to the idea that his decisions do not extend across the omniverse. i'll take 'action' and an entire storyline, over one example from a back up story that may have been nothing more than an error.

but of course, you're welcome to your opinion. i'm not necessarily trying to change your mind, just telling you why i feel the contrary is true. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
i truly cannot grasp how they are 'meaningless'. quasar was almost killed by the m-body that was sent at him because he was interferring where he was not supposed to.

How many M-bodys did we see of the Anomaly, (the M-body that 'almost killed' Quasar)?

Exactly, ONE!

1. Which could have easily been "the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect" of the Anomaly (just like the Comatose Eternity m-body)

2. Which could have easily been the "Aspect that is of RIGHT VINTAGE" (just like the Comatose Eternity m-body)

3. Which could have easily been the Aspect that "Corresponds to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW" (just like the Comatose Eternity m-body)

DO you have PROOF of OTHER M-bodys of the Anomaly that were there?

I think not.

Originally posted by leonidas
time was meaningless in the dimension of m. we saw THREE (not 2) seperate eternities all existing in the dimension at the same time. (one was with the beyonder, one was in a coma and the other was with lt . . .)

The Beyonder with the Eternity M-body was from a DIFFERENT issue, (you have NO idea WHERE or WHEN that is taking place)

and I already PROVED that Warlock's TRIAL took place WAYYYY before Eternity was Comatose by Magus.

SO it is IMPOSSIBLE, for that to be all happening in sequence.

Again, Quasar interrupted a TRIAL that had ALREADY taken place, so if the Writers of Quasar #37 decided to throw that in to give some kind of substance to their "M-body" story, they made a big woo woo ... in other words,

(made a mistake, put their foot in their mouths, saturated the story line beyond belief, information overload, etc, etc...)

because it's a contradiction of CONTINUITY.

Originally posted by leonidas
the comatose m-body was comatose because the ACTUAL spirit was placed in a coma -- obviously the m-body would reflect that.

Now your saying that because I showed you Quasar saying it, but YOUR first reply was this:

"clearly the m-body is an INCOMPLETE eternity as it does NOT house the spiritual essence of eternity"

the REAL eternity does not exist within ANY m-body. that's what i've been saying. the spiritual consciousness does NOT reside within the m-body"

Now your saying the "m-body was comatose because the ACTUAL SPIRIT was placed in a coma"

So show me where On Panel does it SHOWS Magus EVER putting the "the SPIRIT of (the so-called) M-body being placed in a Coma"?

As opposed to what I have in front of me which is simply, Eternity was COMATOSE by Magus! End of story.

"Powerful Eternity Catatonic"

"Artificially Induced by an OUTSIDE FORCE"

"He's Catatonic....It appears to be Induced by OUTSIDE FORCES"....

Eagerly awaiting to see this SCAN of "the SPIRIT of (the so-called) M-body being placed in a Coma" by Magus.

Originally posted by leonidas
i still don't think you're clear on what i'm saying about m-bodies: they ARE the 'essence' of the abstract. but they CAN vary.

That wasn't YOUR take before though, yesterday you said:

Originally posted by leonidas
clearly the m-body is an INCOMPLETE eternity as it does NOT house the spiritual essence of eternity.

Originally posted by leonidas
you don't believe strange 'killed' that death m-body that's fine.

And you shouldn't either according to your own scan:
http://img383.imageshack.us/my.php?image=death48gz.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
i showed you LOADS of other m-bodies of death EXISTING SIDE-BY-SIDE (doesn't get much more simultaneous than that as they were all SEEN at the same instant -- do ALL those m-bodies possess ALL of death's power . . .?)

Yea, that's because:

"Our Dimension contains Reflections of EVERY MANIFESTATION we have EVER DONE"

A bunch of left over "Reflections" of Deaths.

SO that point is inconsequential.

Originally posted by leonidas
on the first page, you choose not to believe that quasar knows what he's talking about when speaking of anomaly, you say the other m-bodies in the dimension are meaningless (still not sure why when they were able to act independent of the INITIAL surroundings) . . .

1. Who Anomaly, acting independent?

he chased off Quasar from interrupting a moment that has a worse case of RE-RUNS than Happy Days in the Family Channel.

2. Who Infinity?

a painting that didn't MOVE or TALK once.

3. Who the multiple Deaths?

cheapest imitation of a haunted house room if I ever saw one, (again, they did NOTHING)

4. Or the obscure Beyonder involvement, which is my belief was monkey wrenched into the mix just to give the story more substance.

Originally posted by leonidas
have you ever seen the universe ended WITHOUT showing the eternity m-body . . .? because i don't seem to recall seeing the m-body of multi-eternity being absorbed by thanos, or multi-eternity even resisting him. surely if a singular eternity could resist, MULTI could do so even more . . .

Sure, just like Multi-Eternity resisted Abraxas, who wasn't HALF the THREAT Thanos posed.

After LT getting absorbed effortlessly, what the heck was Multi-Eternity going to do?

Just like Multi-Eternity (who was TERRIFIED) summoned Reed for help against Abraxas:

"and where ONE ETERNITY would ensure a BOUNDLESS Universe, a MULTI-ETERNITY would ensure a BOUNDLESS MULTI-VERSE"

"What was revealed to me through the Cosmic Entity known as ETERNITY"

"Was a Being like NO OTHER I have EVER encountered, his name is ABRAXAS, and to say HE (MULTI-ETERNITY) had nothing to FEAR in our discovery is an UNDERSTATEMENT"

So Multi-Eternity KNEW, there was nothing it could do against Thanos.

Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, like i said: i think they ARE the essence of the spiritual being they represent. but the body can be affected while the 'consciousness' remains unaffected. in that way, the body can be killed or destroyed, while the 'essence' remains untouched. if someone is OUTSIDE eternity and wanted to REACH the essence, they would clearly have to go inside the m-body, but the 'essence' can still be acting independent of the body itself. what affects the m-body DOES NOT NECESSARILY AFFECT THE ESSENCE OF THAT ABSTRACT.

Well, if ALL you have is Anomaly getting choked out by Maelstrom as the evidence for that, I must disagree.

There's WAYYYY to many instances where Eternity's M-body is the Universe,

where Eternity's M-body gets erased and the Universe gets erased,

where Eternity's M-body gets replaced and the Universe gets replaced,

even M-bodys becoming the ACTUAL Universe, like in the Entropy case. (since you wanted to discount the What If account) which is an Alternate Universe and Canon, so I don't know why it's unexceptable.

Originally posted by leonidas
in a nutshell, that's basically what i'm trying to say. in your scans where the universe is destroyed, it is clear that the consciousness is ALSO destroyed. the m-body is meaningless -- the consciousness is EVERYTHING. that's why when thanos usurped eternity's position, the m-body remained, inert and useless. because the consciousness of eternity had been thrust aside and replaced.

The M-body is meaningless if it's destroyed or replaced,

until then the M-body is EVERYTHING, just like the CONSCIOUSNESS.

Originally posted by leonidas
but the m-bodies were STILL current and still 'functioning' as though the events were occuring 'now'. quasar's interference angered lt and a NEW event sprung from it. were the event REPLAYED, we likely WOULD see quasar present.

Come on....

your trying to force method on that madness.

What this says is that EVERY event that has ever taken place continuously repeats itself for ALL Eternity, UNTIL Quasar or some other hobo decides to crash land the party to change the event.

That's ridiculous and straight up PIS.

Originally posted by leonidas
how exactly does that scan prove there is only ONE dimension of manifestations?

stands to reason that lt WOULD appear in the 616 dimension of m if that's where he was needed. where else would he manifest . . .?

Ok,

I just posted PROOF, that the Living Tribunal's Realm is the Dimension of Manifestation,

"the DIMENSION of MANIFESTATION ... the REALM of the LIVING TRIBUNAL"

NOT the 616 Dimension of Manifestation, or ANY OTHER Number!

and your response is:

"how exactly does that scan prove there is only ONE dimension of manifestations?"

So SHOW us YOUR PROOF,
of OTHER Dimensions of Manifestation, especially the "616" D of M.

Originally posted by leonidas
again speculation (which is fine . . . i just happen to disagree with that particular speculation) but it is no more factual than my claim that m-bodies can possess different amounts of power within them. my notion has SOME basis in fact as quasar asks:

"How much input does a being have with how they're represented?"

the manifester answers: "It varies. As much as they want." he then shows q an m-body of mistress love drawn from q's mind.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Scale of Power, NOTHING!

Quasar does ask that question, but Quasar is referring to the FORM, not it's Power.

"Some Entities have very SPECIFIC Requirements, others give us FREER REIGN"

"Frequently we FORM the MANIFESTATION-BODY to the MENTAL IMAGE of the Beholder"