Kas'im versus Anakin Skywalker

I'm pretty sure it was saying that Anakin was basically the best at getting a jedi mission done, not necessarily the most powerful, but due to him excelling in so many areas (incredible with saber combat, best pilot, great with the force, great general etc.), he was the 'best' jedi so to speak. And that makes sense, he as well as Obi-Wan were basically the heroes of the clone wars, together, they were the most successful as generals and in their missions. And well, there aren't too many other explanations, as saying that he was more powerful than Yoda, and even Mace doesn't quite make sense. But really, you shouldn't make an interpretation out of something, and writing it down as if that was how it originally was, it only loses you credibility

Actually, an explanation tells the others of your insight into the matter, Admiral Planet. While your interpretation is sensible, that quote itself makes Anakin one of the best, especially by your definition, in a time of battles and immense chaos. Anakin was the strongest Jedi then, but Yoda and Mace's experience is what makes them better.

You have this completely wrong. The jedi around the time of the BoR were the most martial jedi that we've ever seen so far, and after the BoR, they believed the sith to be extinct. This lead to the jedi order becoming less martial, as their true enemies were seemingly defeated, and times became more peaceful. It was here on that the jedi became more diplomatic and actual peace keepers rather than warriors.

Indeed, this is true, but yet they did fear the Dark Side and its powers. The Jedi are not purely ignorant, they wouldn't gradually lose all their original martial Jedi Force moves, however they feared too much power and arrogance.

You have completely missed the point of that quote General, that quote has nothing to do with actual force powers, just their overall ability in determining the will of the force, that's it.

Yes I know, I was trying to be more deep. I always over analyze stuff. But yes, its true, by this time, the Jedi's ability with the Force has slighty gone down from BoR.

This is all nice speculation, but the thing is, you have no clue what you're talking about. Prior to the Clone Wars, the times were peaceful, the jedi were diplomats, not warriors, the teachings of the jedi code had molded the order into a very unmartial order. I mean the most popular lightsaber form was Niman, the diplomat's form. Now when the Clone Wars came, it was one of the biggest wars ever in the history of the jedi, and the order was simply not prepared for such a war. And I'm talking about warfare in general, don't get me started on actual jedi on dark jedi, lightsaber upon lightsaber warfare, because the PT Jedi order is very lacking in that department. I mean the ultimate lightsaber dueling form, Makashi was almost made obsolete.

Most Jedi practiced Niman, but if they chose to, they could have very easily learned a much more tougher and advanced form. And Makashi wasn't totally obsolete. There were several, and considering 10,000 Jedi, I would say there was some solid hundred. Examples are Tholme, Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi?, Tyvokka?, Padawans of these Masters, Quinlan Vos, etc.

Simple explanation: more material based around the PT times.

W/E.

Yes, by 3 people.

And by mastering a form which previous generations of Orders could not? Had the Order survived Order 66, many Jedi would have mastered Vapaad.

I think you mean perfected, and all I have to say to that is, proof?

Yes I said perfected. As in there are many forms, and are not incomplete and stuff.

The Lucas-sourced primary reason why the jedi got their butts kicked was because Niman had become the most popular form.

Please quote Admiral. And the Jedi were outnumbered by thousands and thousands of enemies. The whole arena was packed full of droids. Plus there were the Catacombs.

Appeal to majority, nice…

1. The highest form of canon shows Dooku toying with both Obi-Wan and Anakin at once, then kicking Anakin back like ten metres and taking out Obi-Wan with the force, dominating the fight against Anakin, and then losing to Anakin due to a lucky manoeuvre on Ani's part.

2. There's the whole fact that it's very possible that their duel was a test to try to turn Anakin to the darkside, or at least bring him closer. There's a lot supporting this:
(a) Palpatine desperately wanted Anakin as an apprentice, it would be foolish on his part to create the possibility that Dooku might kill him, it makes more sense that he rigged the fight in Anakin's favour.
(b) Dooku takes Obi-Wan out with the force for the whole of the fight, whereas only temporarily disabling Anakin, it's pretty obvious that Obi-Wan was an obstacle and that he wanted to get rid of him so he could concentrate on Skywalker.
(c) Dooku tells Anakin to use his anger - this isn't simply taunting, why give him advice if there were not ulterior motives to their fight.

3. The arguments for Anakin are mostly flawed.

4. Dooku is simply shown in the EU as being far more powerful.

WOW, BULLSHIT AT ITS FINEST!

1.) The highest form of canon shows Anakin and Obi-Wan not even using their prefered forms. Obi-Wan rushes on the attack with Ataru, which he has not mastered. Anakin's Djem So cannot take effect due to the limited space for slashing. And please, Anakin slammed Dooku back and Tyrannus was getting owned out there and was cut down.

2.) A- Sidious planned a fight where Dooku and Anakin fight to the death. The novelization shows this by Dooku trying his hardest against Skywalker. And Anakin wins.

B- With Obi-Wan, Dooku knows he would lose, so he desperately knocks him away. But before this, Dooku realizes that the two may be overwhelming so he Pushes Kenobi and sees how he fares against Anakin, which isn't good. Luckily for Dooku, Kenobi and Anakin are in perfect positioning for him to perform a Kick-Choke-Throw, removing Kenobi permanently. Anakin and Dooku fight, and Skywalker wins.

C- Dooku is using Anakin’s anger against him. Remember Dooku’s duel with Tholme and Sora? In a quote Dooku says, “anger is useful, unless it’s used against you” indicating that Dooku preys on anger to weaken an opponent. However, Anakin’s Rage is more focused and it enhances his Djem So probably.

And the arguments for Anakin are correct. People like Escape and Advent have put a much better argument than the simple one I put above.

And this proves that Anakin mastered it to its highest degree, how?

Dooku is a master of Makashi. Yet his Makashi was blown away by Anakin's Djem So.

Do you realise how asinine this sentence is? Kas’im has mastered Anakin’s form, Djem So, as well as six others, he’s perfected their moves, yet ‘Anakin’s Djem So grants him the victory’? Seriously

Anakin's skill and use of Djem So breaks through Kas'Im.

Actually, an explanation tells the others of your insight into the matter, Admiral Planet.

Admiral Planet? Don't try to copy Advent General, you're not smart enough to pull it off.

While your interpretation is sensible, that quote itself makes Anakin one of the best, especially by your definition, in a time of battles and immense chaos.

Did you read what I posted? I wasn't talking about personal combat prowess, just how good a jedi he is.

Anakin was the strongest Jedi then, but Yoda and Mace's experience is what makes them better.

No, he wasn't. Mace's physical strength is far above Anakin's

Indeed, this is true, but yet they did fear the Dark Side and its powers. The Jedi are not purely ignorant, they wouldn't gradually lose all their original martial Jedi Force moves, however they feared too much power and arrogance.

The point is, you were acting as if the jedi order focused more on personal power after the BoR, the opposite is the actual truth.

Most Jedi practiced Niman, but if they chose to, they could have very easily learned a much more tougher and advanced form.

That's not the point, the whole argument is based on the entire jedi order.

And Makashi wasn't totally obsolete. There were several, and considering 10,000 Jedi, I would say there was some solid hundred. Examples are Tholme, Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi?, Tyvokka?, Padawans of these Masters, Quinlan Vos, etc.

Tholme and Shaak Ti, I'll give you. Provide proof for the others.

And by mastering a form which previous generations of Orders could not? Had the Order survived Order 66, many Jedi would have mastered Vapaad.

Despite the fact that not even the wisest and most in tune with the lightside of the force attempted to master it, due to the fact that it was as dangerous to its user as it is to its opponent.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?books=239

Chapter 3.

You read it yourself, then come back.

Look dude, whatever point you're trying to make, I'm not going to read through an entire chapter of a book just because you're too lazy to make a proper argument. Seriously...

Admiral Planet? Don't try to copy Advent General, you're not smart enough to pull it off.

D'abord, I was never under the impression that Advent calls people Admirals.

Numero deux, I am definately smarter than you.

Did you read what I posted? I wasn't talking about personal combat prowess, just how good a jedi he is

You were talking about him being the Hero with No Fear. I'm saying that it also relates to combat prowess.

No, he wasn't. Mace's physical strength is far above Anakin's

Anakin when fighting generates high strength due to his use of Djem So. And we’re not 100% sure that Mace can beat Anakin in arm wrestling. (lol).

The point is, you were acting as if the jedi order focused more on personal power after the BoR, the opposite is the actual truth.

How about it's a mixture of what you said and what I said?

That's not the point, the whole argument is based on the entire jedi order.

My overall point was that most forms have been highly developed by this time.

Tholme and Shaak Ti, I'll give you. Provide proof for the others.

Quinlan Vos- Tholme's Apprentice and trained under Dooku as a Dark Acolyte

Tyvokka- Had a similar curved lightsaber like Dooku (which is made for dueling) and even though being a master on the Council for hundreds of years, he was overwhelmed by gunshots (Makashi's weakness to blasters).

Ki-Adi Mundi- When he turned around and saw the clones firing at him, he tried doing a one-handed block and was overwhelmed by gunshots (like Tyvokka, and there wasn't that many, though Bacara was shooting).

Despite the fact that not even the wisest and most in tune with the lightside of the force attempted to master it, due to the fact that it was as dangerous to its user as it is to its opponent.

There could have been many Mace Windus to come, and they would have mastered Vapaad. They just never existed unfortunately.

Numero deux, I am definately smarter than you.

That's cute Prodigal. Funny how not one person has ever said jack about you.

You were talking about him being the Hero with No Fear. I'm saying that it also relates to combat prowess.

It relates to it in a very small way. Your post gave the impression that you believed that was my main point. It was not. I was mostly talking about how good a general he was, how many battles he won (as a general), his piloting skills...

Anakin when fighting generates high strength due to his use of Djem So.

Vaapad is even more kinetic than Djem So, Kenobl.

And we’re not 100% sure that Mace can beat Anakin in arm wrestling. (lol).

Mace can punch through durasteel, dummy.

How about it's a mixture of what you said and what I said?

No. You were completely wrong, I was right.

My overall point was that most forms have been highly developed by this time.

Prove it!!

Quinlan Vos- Tholme's Apprentice and trained under Dooku as a Dark Acolyte

This is ridiculous. By this logic, Anakin must know Soresu because he trained under Obi-Wan. Seriously, your arguments couldn't get more fallacious.

Tyvokka- Had a similar curved lightsaber like Dooku (which is made for dueling)

Since when is a curved lightsaber exclusive to Makashi? Assaj Ventress used a curved saber, she didn't utilise Makashi. Darth Bane used a curved saber, he utilised Shien...

and even though being a master on the Council for hundreds of years, he was overwhelmed by gunshots (Makashi's weakness to blasters).

By your logic, anyone who utilises another form other than Makashi is totally immune to blaster fire. Please.

Ki-Adi Mundi- When he turned around and saw the clones firing at him, he tried doing a one-handed block and was overwhelmed by gunshots (like Tyvokka, and there wasn't that many, though Bacara was shooting).

Right... I guess that all the jedi who got gunned down by clones utilised Makashi, correct? Please, if your arguments don't get any better, I'm gonna end this, because you're starting to bore me and your inept arguments are quite frankly not worth my time.

There could have been many Mace Windus to come, and they would have mastered Vapaad. They just never existed unfortunately.

Not that this point is relevant to the argument (as it is just speculation into a what if scenario), [sarcasm]but yeah, Mace was nothing special, there would have been plenty of Mace Windus after he.[/sarcasm] Please...

That's cute Prodigal. Funny how not one person has ever said jack about you.

First off, you brought Advent and crap into this, so please shut up all right.

It relates to it in a very small way. Your post gave the impression that you believed that was my main point. It was not. I was mostly talking about how good a general he was, how many battles he won (as a general), his piloting skills...

No, it doesn't refer to it in a very small way. One of the quote's primary purposes was to show how powerful Anakin was, as a General and as a Jedi.

Vaapad is even more kinetic than Djem So, Kenobl

Vapaad drives in short fast deadly attacks. Djem So are more long, and have more strength to them.

And please don't switch the topic Planet. Your reply is something totally different to what I originally posted. Try again:

Anakin when fighting generates high strength due to his use of Djem So.

Mace can punch through durasteel, dummy.

1.) Yep, the same Mace Windu who punched out thousands of battle droids without his hands bleeding. The Clone Wars Series are Jedi exaggerations at their finest.

2.) Do you have proof that Anakin cannot?

No. You were completely wrong, I was right.

Wow, you're persuasive.

Prove it!!

I already typed up an explanation some posts ago. But who cares.

As time passes by, and you get older, you learn many things along the way. You gain experience, which is why people consider old people wise. The Jedi's lightsaber training have been continuously perfected over the years. The Jedi learn more techniques, new things, which they add to the Holocrons. It seems logical that more techniques and perfection on certain attacks and defensive moves in all forms increased over the centuries. Even Vapaad has been perfected. This is a huge step since nobody in millenia has been able to complete the form. It seems likely that this is the case.

This is ridiculous. By this logic, Anakin must know Soresu because he trained under Obi-Wan. Seriously, your arguments couldn't get more fallacious.

Actually, Anakin and Obi-Wan both knew Ataru in AOTC. However, after this they began to learn their own special forms and master it. Obi-Wan became a master of Soresu and Anakin a master of Djem So.

Since when is a curved lightsaber exclusive to Makashi? Assaj Ventress used a curved saber, she didn't utilise Makashi. Darth Bane used a curved saber, he utilised Shien...

First off, I wrote more to that. That just a part of what I wrote. The curved lightsaber plus Tyvokka losing to some gunshots makes sense that he uses Makashi. Please don't try bullshit on me.

By your logic, anyone who utilises another form other than Makashi is totally immune to blaster fire. Please.

Pathetic. Makashi is naturally susceptible to blaster fire than other forms. ""By my logic"", please you're making a fool of yourself. Did I ever say that? No, I said Makashi is weak to blaster fire.

Right... I guess that all the jedi who got gunned down by clones utilised Makashi, correct? Please, if your arguments don't get any better, I'm gonna end this, because you're starting to bore me and your inept arguments are quite frankly not worth my time.

Pff, look who's talking. I'm not even trying to argue, and still you're doing pretty bad. Hey, whatever happened to the Dooku argument? Obviously, you couldn't come up with a better rebuttal, so you just skip it.

Not that this point is relevant to the argument (as it is just speculation into a what if scenario), [sarcasm]but yeah, Mace was nothing special, there would have been plenty of Mace Windus after he.[/sarcasm] Please...

Had the Order survived, Jedi like Kyp Durron and others could have entered the Temple. In thousands of years to come, if Order survived all ways, you don't think there would be any more Jedi with the power of Mace Windu?

"Sigh" This is getting quite boring.

with all the logic here, it's as if people are saying Anakin could beat Yoda too, when Kas'im had more saber knowledge than even Yoda. He would slice Anakin up in a saber duel.

Anakin beats kas'im, hands down. He is just too powerfull.

Also, after read this book i am now 100% sure that anakin>dooku

What book are you talking about?

The novelization. I actually never read ROTS' book, but now i see that anakin>dooku quite clearly. The book states this in a very clear way.

Everyone knows Anakin>Dooku

Anakin, Mace, Yoda, and Dooku could (imo), take down Kas'im.

Originally posted by Blaxican
Anakin, Mace, Yoda, and Dooku could (imo), take down Kas'im.

I disagree with all of these except for possibly Yoda. We're talking about pure saber combat here. Read POD.

You don't think Mace could take out Kas'Im adter a hard fight?

May I ask why? I'm nto disagreeing, I'm just wondering, bot contradicting.

Originally posted by Blaxican
You don't think Mace could take out Kas'Im adter a hard fight?

May I ask why? I'm nto disagreeing, I'm just wondering, bot contradicting.

because again, Kas'im mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, mastered jar'kai, mastered doube bladed techniques, and was deemed the perfect warrior.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
because again, Kas'im mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, mastered jar'kai, mastered doube bladed techniques, and was deemed the perfect warrior.

Doesn't know Vaapad. Doesn't have defense against Shatterpoint. I can see Mace winning, and even if he doesn't, he's sure as hell not going down easily.

Vaapad isn't really that different from Juyo, the actual moves and sequences were hardly expanded upon, Mace just took it to the next level with the mental aspects of the form. And it's not like Shatterpoint is infallible, it clearly didn't help him against Dooku.

In a way actually, speaking only in terms of the moves and sequences of the forms, Kas'im did what Mace did to Juyo to all 7 forms,
After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy.

Originally posted by Gideon
Doesn't know Vaapad. Doesn't have defense against Shatterpoint. I can see Mace winning, and even if he doesn't, he's sure as hell not going down easily.

Form 7 is Juyo, nobody but Mace knows Vaapad. And I don't see Mace winning against Yoda's different styles, so I highly doubt that he would do better against somebody that knows MORE in terms of saber combat, than Yoda.

Anakin was called something along the lines of "The perfect warrior" during the time of the clone wars.

Also, he isn't one to ***** about two lightsabers the way Bane is. He does fine against them.