Originally posted by leonidas
you raise a fair point, nvr. galactus HAS died in other, alternate, universes. in what ifs he has died. can't recall off hand specific issues. an obvious one was korvac who wiped out the whole universe. didn't the goblin force destroy him as well . . .? there were at least a couple other times . . .using those as points of reference (hard to do because they are old, but to uphold continuity writers should f'n check things out FIRST before making the kind of sweeping arcs that throw everything else into question . . .) maybe we SHOULD conclude that 616 is special. which is what i've said all along anyway, so it's nice to agree with myself. saves debate time. 😉
It's because of rougue writers that we end up killing each other around here. 😂
In any case, this is from the Official Marvel site: (I know I hate myself for it, but I know Abraxas was collapsing the Multi-verse, not Galactus's return to his Natural State.
Born within the abstract entity Eternity, Abraxas was kept in check throughout the Multiverse by the existence of Galactus.
With the death of Galactus on Earth-616, Abraxas was free to roam the dimensions, (just like Roma had said) killing every version of Galactus he found.
Abraxas sent a decapitated Galactus skull stored with an alternate earth Nova hurtling towards Earth.
While Abraxas drew nearer, the walls of dimensional space began to blur, (see, Abraxas is a walking Multiversal collapse) rendering Uatu The Watcher comatose.
Originally posted by leonidas
can't be. korvac destroyed his and the universe with it . . .
Forgot about the Korvac moment.
Originally posted by leonidas
the arc was all about alternate realities and beings who existed in different versions throughout the multiverse. nova even commented on abraxas's affinity for those types of beings.the arc was a TESTAMENT to the existent of alternate realities.
😕
I never said there aren't alternate realities.
Originally posted by leonidas
the 'something' that was happening UNTIL was that reality was fine. it didn't become 'unhinged' UNTIL galactus 'died', or . . . went natural . . . or . . . whatever he did. and abraxas was 'kept in check' UNTIL g died.
You didn't answer my question though friend,
When Roma said,
"UNTIL this REALITY'S Galactus DIED, and the DOORS of the Multi-verse became UNHINGED"
Something was taking place "UNTIL" ...
1. Did Roma say, the Multi-verse was Balanced, not collapsing, "UNTIL" ...?
2. Did Roma say, Abraxas was kept in check, "UNTIL" ...?
Choose 1, or 2.
Originally posted by leonidas
(if he didn't 'really' die, the whole arc is ridiculous since the entire premise falls in the crapper and it's not worth debating. so for the sake of the debate, we need to assume he DID die.)
I can't do that, cause technically he didn't die.
His form was what died, and for some odd reason while he is in Galactus Form, he keeps Abraxas in check.
"The TRUE FORM of GALACTUS is REVEALED at last"
"A NEW STAR is BORN" ..................... "Reed, WHAT HAPPENED"?
"Galactus has been CONVERTED to ENERGY"
Originally posted by leonidas
i still say because we never SAW or HEARD of abraxas really doing anything to collapse or even ADD to the multiversal destruction, that he was a symptom -- a harbinger if you will, or a sign -- of multiversal destruction. when he 'appears' the multiverse is doomed. but not BECAUSE he appears. if you understand what i'm trying to say.
Abraxas is the embodiment or concept of destruction.
As he enters a Universe, that Universe begins to Fold.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So... if the UN can indeed destroy the multiverse... why does the IG able to pwn the UN when it itself is multiversal? It's like two multiversal thingies going at it, and one clearly tops the other. Any reason why? I have my own theories about this, which might be very controversial... btu I'd just wanna hear other people's takes on this.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Because the IG is Multiversal on greater level,simple, effective,
no?
Regardless, I think the latter one is the most logical and seems to jive with Mr Master's presentation of what occurred. But in the Abraxas storyline, if the entire Multiverse was destroyed and remade... weren't the Infinity Gems also destroyed and remade? So it seems like between the two, a comparison of power hinges on whether the effect of either takes precedence and that is merely a pulling of the trigger, whoever shoots first unabated, kills first. So in that respect, I don't quite swallow the UN being the mere plaything of the IG. It may be pointed out that here, the UN was fired first and teh IG came out on top. But I doubt that simplistic interpretation. Being the master of all Space, Time and Mind certainly helps let the Magus know what is going to happen and who is intending to do what before they even know it. So unless teh Magus was ignoring the sensory input from his Infinity Gauntlet, his manipulations were already underway by the time Quasar activated it.
Also, Magus with his IG never takes on the full brunt of the Ultimate Nullifier's energies. If he had, and remained unscathed, then I'd agree that the IG makes the UN look like a water pistol and I'd agree with Mr Master's overall opinion on the hierarchy between the two. Why didn't Magus take the full brunt to show his marshalling of the IG's power would withstand the UN's energies? Seems to me, the most obvious conclusion is that he had to redirect the energies for fear of being ultimately nullified.
Bottom-line, in the Abraxas storyline... the UN appears to be capable of destroying and recreating the entire multiverse... which to me includes the Infinity Gems/Gauntlet. Unless they're peculiarly outside of the multiverse... and Adam Warlock seems to be the only guy fitting that description. Like I said, my own theory about the UN and the IG might appear controversial, so what's your response, Mr Master?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Sounds a bit too simplistic for me. Following the last bit about the UN... personally, I never saw the UN's power being redirected at Quasar as the IG controlling the UN but more of some subtle manipulation through any one of the Infinity Gems' power. He might have used the Mind Gem to make Quasar think of himself as the target rather than the Magus. He might have used the Space Gem to warp space so that Quasar ended up in the path of the beam. He might have used the Power Gem and took control of the energy to actually redirect its stream.Regardless, I think the latter one is the most logical and seems to jive with Mr Master's presentation of what occurred. But in the Abraxas storyline, if the entire Multiverse was destroyed and remade... weren't the Infinity Gems also destroyed and remade? So it seems like between the two, a comparison of power hinges on whether the effect of either takes precedence and that is merely a pulling of the trigger, whoever shoots first unabated, kills first. So in that respect, I don't quite swallow the UN being the mere plaything of the IG. It may be pointed out that here, the UN was fired first and teh IG came out on top. But I doubt that simplistic interpretation. Being the master of all Space, Time and Mind certainly helps let the Magus know what is going to happen and who is intending to do what before they even know it. So unless teh Magus was ignoring the sensory input from his Infinity Gauntlet, his manipulations were already underway by the time Quasar activated it.
Also, Magus with his IG never takes on the full brunt of the Ultimate Nullifier's energies. If he had, and remained unscathed, then I'd agree that the IG makes the UN look like a water pistol and I'd agree with Mr Master's overall opinion on the hierarchy between the two. Why didn't Magus take the full brunt to show his marshalling of the IG's power would withstand the UN's energies? Seems to me, the most obvious conclusion is that he had to redirect the energies for fear of being ultimately nullified.
Bottom-line, in the Abraxas storyline... the UN appears to be capable of destroying and recreating the entire multiverse... which to me includes the Infinity Gems/Gauntlet. Unless they're peculiarly outside of the multiverse... and Adam Warlock seems to be the only guy fitting that description. Like I said, my own theory about the UN and the IG might appear controversial, so what's your response, Mr Master?
I agree with this and have been arguing something along these lines. Also don't forget, there are other IG's. THe impossible man had one. and the silver surfer had one. In what if's stories which are in fact other realities.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Sounds a bit too simplistic for me.
Occam's razor...
It has to work.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Following the last bit about the UN... personally, I never saw the UN's power being redirected at Quasar as the IG controlling the UN but more of some subtle manipulation through any one of the Infinity Gems' power. He might have used the Mind Gem to make Quasar think of himself as the target rather than the Magus. He might have used the Space Gem to warp space so that Quasar ended up in the path of the beam. He might have used the Power Gem and took control of the energy to actually redirect its stream.Regardless, I think the latter one is the most logical and seems to jive with Mr Master's presentation of what occurred.
He could of done many things, but the only depiction we're given is Quasar clicking the UN, setting it off directed right at Magus, and Magus with "a thought turns the Universe's most devastating weapon upon it's bearer"
So he's even letting us know, that the controlled the energies himself.
That's owning the UN.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But in the Abraxas storyline, if the entire Multiverse was destroyed and remade... weren't the Infinity Gems also destroyed and remade? So it seems like between the two, a comparison of power hinges on whether the effect of either takes precedence and that is merely a pulling of the trigger, whoever shoots first unabated, kills first. So in that respect,
By the time the Abraxas Arc came out ALL the Gems were separated, (Not Gauntlets, due to the Tribunal's ruling)
And the other IGs seem to show power on a Universal scale, and that's it, even far less in Impossible Man's case and there's only been one other which is Silver Surfer. Impossible Man couldn't even create a World, he needed Galactus's help.
Surfer had control of a universe (it seemed) with his IG but Eternity was never present.
In fact, Eternity was never even mentioned, that was wierd, and he never showed up the one time Surfer said he was going to remake the Universe, he never did it of course,
But if Eternity would have felt threatened, I'm sure he would of popped out.
Yet he isn't even mentioned in the issue.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't quite swallow the UN being the mere plaything of the IG. It may be pointed out that here, the UN was fired first and teh IG came out on top. But I doubt that simplistic interpretation. Being the master of all Space, Time and Mind certainly helps let the Magus know what is going to happen and who is intending to do what before they even know it. So unless teh Magus was ignoring the sensory input from his Infinity Gauntlet, his manipulations were already underway by the time Quasar activated it.
Perhaps, but what we're given is the UN going off and Magus controlling the actual Energy that was dispersed.
That's owning the UN.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Also, Magus with his IG never takes on the full brunt of the Ultimate Nullifier's energies. If he had, and remained unscathed, then I'd agree that the IG makes the UN look like a water pistol and I'd agree with Mr Master's overall opinion on the hierarchy between the two. Why didn't Magus take the full brunt to show his marshalling of the IG's power would withstand the UN's energies? Seems to me, the most obvious conclusion is that he had to redirect the energies for fear of being ultimately nullified.
It' a good assumption but we have to follow the on panel, that's very clear.
In any stance, the bottom line is, that Quasar actually shot the UN at Magus, and Magus took that Energy and controlled it.
That's controlling the flow of Energy that erases Universes.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Bottom-line, in the Abraxas storyline... the UN appears to be capable of destroying and recreating the entire multiverse... which to me includes the Infinity Gems/Gauntlet. Unless they're peculiarly outside of the multiverse... and Adam Warlock seems to be the only guy fitting that description. Like I said, my own theory about the UN and the IG might appear controversial, so what's your response, Mr Master?
Also,
not every Universe has to be the same either, a Multi-verse is just an Infinite number of Alternate Realities, but not every Reality is the same.
So there are Realities the IG doesn't exist for whatever reason.
Alternate/Mirror Realities are completely different from each other
Reed is Dr Doom in one Universe and a brute in the other
Benn Grimm is NOT the Thing in this other Universe and in another he has Reed's power.
The Thing is a footbal player in one Universe while Sue Storm has the Human Torch's powers
Here a bunch of heroes who are still heroes but with NO powers. (including yet another Reed)
Originally posted by Mr Master
It's because of rougue writers that we end up killing each other around here. 😂
amen to that. which is why i've always said we can't make over-riding theories. we can try andf generalize knowing there will be exceptions (canonical exceptions) to any theory making opposing theories (perhaps less supported but still) no less valid.
In any case, this is from the Official Marvel site: (I know I hate myself for it, but I know Abraxas was collapsing the Multi-verse, not Galactus's return to his Natural State.Born within the abstract entity Eternity, Abraxas was kept in check throughout the Multiverse by the existence of Galactus.
With the death of Galactus on Earth-616, Abraxas was free to roam the dimensions, (just like Roma had said) killing every version of Galactus he found.
Abraxas sent a decapitated Galactus skull stored with an alternate earth Nova hurtling towards Earth.
While Abraxas drew nearer, the walls of dimensional space began to blur, (see, Abraxas is a walking Multiversal collapse) rendering Uatu The Watcher comatose. [/B]
😆
all right. but if you want me to accept that, than you have to accept he was only galactus level. there was still nothing shown on panel regarding his apparent ability to collapse dimensional walls -- your own ultimate decision-maker. if marvel makes the decree, i'll stay consistent and say fine. but then if this is your best proof (and imo it is) then you can't just choose to follow this particular proof and ignore the other things that marvel states just because this bit jives with your opinion. 😉
Originally posted by Mr Master
You didn't answer my question though friend,When Roma said,
"UNTIL this REALITY'S Galactus DIED, and the DOORS of the Multi-verse became UNHINGED"
Something was taking place "UNTIL" ...
1. Did Roma say, the Multi-verse was Balanced, not collapsing, "UNTIL" ...?
2. Did Roma say, Abraxas was kept in check, "UNTIL" ...?
Choose 1, or 2.
ah, i see. i misunderstood your query. she did say he was kept in check. but it doesn't contradict that she said g's death was what started everything.
I can't do that, cause technically he didn't die.
exactly. which makes the premise silly since abraxas was to be freed by g's death . . .
Abraxas is the embodiment or concept of destruction.As he enters a Universe, that Universe begins to Fold.
remains unproven -- minus allusion -- in the arc itself. no feat to point to, no terminolgy to state he was a multiversal destroyer. marvel says that is what is intended, so i'll buy it. just remember that the next time i refer to marvel as an official source. 😉
ps--i'll claim it as a margin of victory that you have been forced to use the the bio . . . 😂
pps: you never did explain away the fact that the 'evil' that ss was talking about 'overwhelmed' g BEFORE he died. that is a rather obvious contradiction considering the 'evil' (abraxas) couldn't have done ANYTHING because he had YET to be released . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
pps: you never did explain away the fact that the 'evil' that ss was talking about 'overwhelmed' g BEFORE he died. that is a rather obvious contradiction considering the 'evil' (abraxas) couldn't have done ANYTHING because he had YET to be released . . .
I await a answer.
