Harsh (Screaming) Vocals

Howard Jones starts crooning and all the people go "He's such a good singer!". He's not, he's just singing in a way that is perceived as good singing. Nothing against the man, I'm not a fan but you could do worse. I just think he's a good example.

You don't think he is. You make it sound as if you're substituting people's supposed false perception to make your opinion come off as fact. That's not fair. What's your exposure to KSE or Blood Has Been Shed? Have you heard KSE's cover of "Holy Diver", a purely melodically sung rendition? Howard Jones is no fluke. He can sing, and his range is comparable to Phil LaBonte of All That Remains, who's come up in these threads before.

It doesn't matter what you think, personally. Kurt Ballou and Ben Koller are two of the more respected guitarists and drummers (Respectively) in heavy music. It's not a matter of whether or not you like them, the fact that they are talented on their instruments isn't for you to decide.

Whether or not you like what they do with them is up to you.

Honestly, it doesn't appear that the competition would be too fierce given when you hear "heavy music", which I don't follow, DEP and Converge..maybe even Saetia, are the only names that come to mind. That said, respect and talent don't necessarily compliment one another. Converge may be respected for the FACT that they're one of the bands that ushered in metalcore, which has been a blessing and a curse, given they've changed their style to blend in overtime. Any other "fact", like that pertaining to someone's skill, will always be nothing more than an incredibly popular opinion. Lack, or abundance of talent. It's a non-debate.

The problem is, you're baffled. You're baffled because you don't understand and what they do simply doesn't appeal to you. You like Throwdown and Chimaira; You're far from infallible.

Actually, I don't follow Throwdown. They're a poor man's Pantera and their music is about as boring as Terror. I owned a CD for a bit, but otherwise, no. I do enjoy Chimaira's older work. They softened up. Don't really get where you were going with that swipe, though. Questioning my credibility because I appreciate bands you don't.

At being a band and making music. You seem to be suggesting that because it's not melodic, it's not music. "I can't see it, so it's not there.". That's stupid.

Nope. I can appreciate that music doesn't have to be melodic, nor has to have structure, but once you get into the realm where you just omit those and throw caution to the wind with your craft, it's art in it's purist form because you ignore all the traditional elements to express something as ugly as whatever you may be feeling, i.e. a lot of DEP's work.

I know this may come as a shocking revelation, but what if...WHAT IF...it's intended for them, and not the fans? What if, heaven forbid, they actually did it all for their own enjoyment? You're stuck in a cycle of assuming they simply must be doing it for others, and therefore it's pointless to make them indecipherable. You're complaining about not understanding Jacob Bannon's lyrics because you don't like Converge.

I said before that musicians always write for themselves. Any self-respecting person who appreciates music would know that. You're totally wrong. I'm complaining about not understanding Jacob Bannon's lyrics because they're unintelligible to anyone other than himself. My dislike for Converge is beside the point. I'll complain about any other band that screeches, growls, or yells the majority of their lyrics as well. I'm not partial. I'm an elitist, remember?

Converge fans don't care that you can't hear the lyrics that well, because they concentrate on what they're all doing and enjoying it, whatever each of them believes it is. I love Converge, if I want their lyrics I go to a site.

Why should they care; they don't themselves to begin with. Like I said before, there's nothing distinguishing them from many other bands in the same genre aside from history and namesake, and considering there's 1 original member, that doesn't account for a lot, IMO.

A) All music is audible.

I'll rephrase; tolerable.

B) Why should a band with a sound change simply because many are ripping them off? Just because fans can't make the distinction and apply respect and admiration accordingly, doesn't mean the bands have to cater to them and change to make it easier.

I'm talking about the copycats specifially. Not the originators. "Enter-your-scene/genre-here" - Core is so basic nowadays, and it's so easy to sell records because kids just don't give a ****. As long as they can karate chop and kick their way in a pit, it's all good, and that's a shame.

You seem to believe that the fans have some entitlement here, and you're wrong.

Well, god forbid the people that support the bands livelihoods be shown any admiration in return in any instance, not that I want anything more than the bands to play my town. I don't know where I asked for, or suggested, anything else?

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Why did this turn into the "Hate-on-Converge" thread?

Because...

Exactly. Bands like Converge and Refused wouldnt sound nearly as good without screaming.

Welcome to the Music Forums. You're in a debate thread with AC and C-Dic. Be warned that we're opinionated, and my opinion is that Converge isn't "good" with or without screaming. I bit my tongue on Refused, because I hate whiny, preachy politcal punk music. Let's leave their actual music out of it.

Well no, let's not leave the actual music out.

Originally posted by The Core
You don't think he is. You make it sound as if you're substituting people's supposed false perception to make your opinion come off as fact. That's not fair. What's your exposure to KSE or Blood Has Been Shed? Have you heard KSE's cover of "Holy Diver", a purely melodically sung rendition? Howard Jones is no fluke. He can sing, and his range is comparable to Phil LaBonte of All That Remains, who's come up in these threads before.

Yes I have heard it, you should know me better than to believe I judge without having heard, but you're only proving my point.

"Howard is no fluke, he can sing.". So what? He can literally sing and has a crooney voice, big deal. There are many literal singers in this world, it doesn't make you a good one just because you have a large voice. I don't consider him a good singer because I consider people like Jeff Buckley good singers. People who not only had great actually singing ability, but unique voices. What Howard does isn't unique, what Phil does is not unique. They won't be remembered for their amazing voices.

Originally posted by The Core
Honestly, it doesn't appear that the competition would be too fierce given when you hear "heavy music", which I don't follow, DEP and Converge..maybe even Saetia, are the only names that come to mind. That said, respect and talent don't necessarily compliment one another. Converge may be respected for the FACT that they're one of the bands that ushered in metalcore, which has been a blessing and a curse, given they've changed their style to blend in overtime. Any other "fact", like that pertaining to someone's skill, will always be nothing more than an incredibly popular opinion. Lack, or abundance of talent. It's a non-debate.

Who are you to question my love of heavy music Mr. Didn't like/know Mastodon until they released their major label debut? I like a couple of heavy bands you don't "get", and therefore I'm not credible to speak on heavy music? Bit silly. You put Mastodon up there with Tool, technically (Wrongly), and I was listening to them when you considered them nothing but noise. Don't act as if you're some nutter just because you finally caught the rope and realised they were excellent.

I don't choose to debate technical talent because it doesn't mean anything when discussing love of music or creativity, but you are factually wrong for calling Converge poor musicians, they're not.

Originally posted by The Core
Don't really get where you were going with that swipe, though. Questioning my credibility because I appreciate bands you don't.

I'll chuckle, move on, and let you retract that now. Given the above debacle.

Originally posted by The Core
it's art in it's purist form because you ignore all the traditional elements to express something as ugly as whatever you may be feeling, i.e. a lot of DEP's work.

...oh I'm sorry, I thought you were going to get to the part where this is a bad thing. "I don't like it that way.", I assume would be your answer.

Originally posted by The Core
I said before that musicians always write for themselves. Any self-respecting person who appreciates music would know that. You're totally wrong. I'm complaining about not understanding Jacob Bannon's lyrics because they're unintelligible to anyone other than himself. My dislike for Converge is beside the point. I'll complain about any other band that screeches, growls, or yells the majority of their lyrics as well. I'm not partial. I'm an elitist, remember?

An elitist that acts like Howard Jones and Phil la Bonte are great singers who stand out in a genre that stands out or deserves to.

If you believe you are an elitist because you like your "metalcore" to be of a certain quality, and that quality is All That Remains, then I really don't know what kind of elitism you're preaching. Kind of like people who call themselves a percentage of vegetarian.

Originally posted by The Core
Why should they care; they don't themselves to begin with. Like I said before, there's nothing distinguishing them from many other bands in the same genre aside from history and namesake, and considering there's 1 original member, that doesn't account for a lot, IMO.

Of course there is. Converge have much more choppy and bitey guitar than a lot of the bands in the genre you are lumping them, and none of those vocalists sound anything like Jacob Bannon.

Originally posted by The Core
I'm talking about the copycats specifially. Not the originators. "Enter-your-scene/genre-here" - Core is so basic nowadays, and it's so easy to sell records because kids just don't give a ****. As long as they can karate chop and kick their way in a pit, it's all good, and that's a shame.

I'm not talking about the originators. Copycats are bad, we know this.

Originally posted by The Core
Well, god forbid the people that support the bands livelihoods be shown any admiration in return in any instance, not that I want anything more than the bands to play my town. I don't know where I asked for, or suggested, anything else?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but the bands aren't asking you to listen to them, you listen to them of your own free will and in return, listen to/buy their music. They don't owe you or anybody anything.

-AC

"Howard is no fluke, he can sing.". So what? He can literally sing and has a crooney voice, big deal. There are many literal singers in this world, it doesn't make you a good one just because you have a large voice. I don't consider him a good singer because I consider people like Jeff Buckley good singers. People who not only had great actually singing ability, but unique voices. What Howard does isn't unique, what Phil does is not unique. They won't be remembered for their amazing voices.

You're comparing, out of their elements, someone who's a singer by trade against someone who only started incorporating melodies into their work less than 5 years ago. Howard's vocals are what set KSE apart from tons of other metal bands out there. Wether or not that will be their legacy remains to be seen, but it won't hurt, given he's just as good live as in studio. I think Howard's style is unique, as is Byron Davis/Negrodamus', and especially Lajon Witherspoon, who opened the doors for those guys. Talent-wise, Lajon is the strongest. Just keeping it in the genre for the sake of arguement.

Who are you to question my love of heavy music Mr. Didn't like/know Mastodon until they released their major label debut? I like a couple of heavy bands you don't "get", and therefore I'm not credible to speak on heavy music? Bit silly. You put Mastodon up there with Tool, technically (Wrongly), and I was listening to them when you considered them nothing but noise. Don't act as if you're some nutter just because you finally caught the rope and realised they were excellent.

I didn't question it, AC. You said they were well respected, and I said given how shallow the genre is, it couldn't be that hard. You're taking the offensive out of nowhere. Yes, I made mention that Mastodon, after a couple more albums, given their progression, has the potential to be as big as Tool. That's just my opinion, and I don't just spit out my feelings, and I didn't think it was so much a far-fetched proclamation as it was a strong opinion based on their evolution. How I was wrong in making a claim is beyond me. I base it on what I hear.

I don't choose to debate technical talent because it doesn't mean anything when discussing love of music or creativity, but you are factually wrong for calling Converge poor musicians, they're not.

Technical talent doesn't mean anything when it comes to creativity? I'm "factually wrong" because I have a negative opinion? Popular belief isn't fact. It's still an opinion, like mine. Obviously, some people's opinions are accepted as fact, where as mine is just "wrong"? Give me a break!

I'll chuckle, move on, and let you retract that now. Given the above debacle.

I'm not retracting anything. There's no reason, and especially not just because you don't appreciate Chimaira. This is just another example of differing opinions, and you're being more valid than mine somehow.

...oh I'm sorry, I thought you were going to get to the part where this is a bad thing. "I don't like it that way.", I assume would be your answer.

I never said it was a bad thing. If done in a way that I can appreciate, there may be a noise band out there that I like. I highly doubt it though, because I'm less a fan of actual art, and more of music for entertainment and emotion.

An elitist that acts like Howard Jones and Phil la Bonte are great singers who stand out in a genre that stands out or deserves to.

If you believe you are an elitist because you like your "metalcore" to be of a certain quality, and that quality is All That Remains, then I really don't know what kind of elitism you're preaching. Kind of like people who call themselves a percentage of vegetarian.

You do this all too often, but at the same time, never offer any alternatives, solutions, or reasons as to why the bands don't appeal to you. I give that courtesy, I don't just stealth attack opinions, I've got a basis for disliking and liking every single band I listen to. I hold a high standard, and the highest of that is uniquity. Both bands have it. The elitism I preach is liking very few bands, holding somewhat of a high standard, and being content with it. I have guilty pleasure like anyone else, but not so extreme that I'll sacrifice good taste for the sake of acceptance, or liking a band because everyone else does.

Of course there is. Converge have much more choppy and bitey guitar than a lot of the bands in the genre you are lumping them, and none of those vocalists sound anything like Jacob Bannon.

I can't do this one. Screaming is screaming. It only gets louder, more shrill, and less tolerable.

I'm not talking about the originators. Copycats are bad, we know this.

Well, then we're going in circles, lol. Korn felt the need to change because of so many copycats. Then again, necessary evolution gave way to outside inspiration, and they've totally lost their touch. That said, I don't know of any other band in the past decade that has shook up the genre hard enough to force bands to change.

Originally posted by The Core
You're comparing, out of their elements, someone who's a singer by trade against someone who only started incorporating melodies into their work less than 5 years ago. Howard's vocals are what set KSE apart from tons of other metal bands out there. Wether or not that will be their legacy remains to be seen, but it won't hurt, given he's just as good live as in studio. I think Howard's style is unique, as is Byron Davis/Negrodamus', and especially Lajon Witherspoon, who opened the doors for those guys. Talent-wise, Lajon is the strongest. Just keeping it in the genre for the sake of arguement.

Lajon Witherspoon is no better than your average singing vocalist. People just think he's amazing cos he's in a "metal" band. If he put out an R&B album, nobody would say a word about his "talent".

Originally posted by The Core
I didn't question it, AC. You said they were well respected, and I said given how shallow the genre is, it couldn't be that hard. You're taking the offensive out of nowhere. Yes, I made mention that Mastodon, after a couple more albums, given their progression, has the potential to be as big as Tool. That's just my opinion, and I don't just spit out my feelings, and I didn't think it was so much a far-fetched proclamation as it was a strong opinion based on their evolution. How I was wrong in making a claim is beyond me. I base it on what I hear.

The point I'm making is, you called them a noise band, like you call Converge a noise band. I didn't suggest you know nothing of heavy music as a result, I'd expect you to afford me the same respect.

Originally posted by The Core
Technical talent doesn't mean anything when it comes to creativity? I'm "factually wrong" because I have a negative opinion? Popular belief isn't fact. It's still an opinion, like mine. Obviously, some people's opinions are accepted as fact, where as mine is just "wrong"? Give me a break!

You don't have the right to decide who is better at something just because you dislike them. You disliking Converge doesn't mean they are technically bad musicians, is my point. Me liking them doesn't make it so either, the fact that they are, is what makes them good. Creatively? That's subjective.

You couldn't come out and say Synyster Gates was more talented than Steve Vai, if you did, your opinion would be wrong.

Originally posted by The Core
I'm not retracting anything. There's no reason, and especially not just because you don't appreciate Chimaira. This is just another example of differing opinions, and you're being more valid than mine somehow.

You questioned my credibility because you can't appreciate Dillinger and/or Converge, so I'm doing the same. The difference is, I don't choose to appreciate Chimaira, you CAN'T appreciate anything about Dillinger or Converge. Not even the fact that they're good on their instruments. I dislike Avenged Sevenfold, but I can admit Gates is a good player.

Originally posted by The Core
I never said it was a bad thing. If done in a way that I can appreciate, there may be a noise band out there that I like. I highly doubt it though, because I'm less a fan of actual art, and more of music for entertainment and emotion.

Britney Spears is an "entertainer" who uses music, Converge use music and coincidentally end up entertaining their fans. Entertainment is a part of music, but whether or not it's the intention or result are two completely different things.

You're essentially writing things off just because you simply don't "get" it.

Originally posted by The Core
You do this all too often, but at the same time, never offer any alternatives, solutions, or reasons as to why the bands don't appeal to you. I give that courtesy, I don't just stealth attack opinions, I've got a basis for disliking and liking every single band I listen to. I hold a high standard, and the highest of that is uniquity. Both bands have it. The elitism I preach is liking very few bands, holding somewhat of a high standard, and being content with it. I have guilty pleasure like anyone else, but not so extreme that I'll sacrifice good taste for the sake of acceptance, or liking a band because everyone else does.

I've said many times that the bands I name, all those bands with identikit names, forgettable musicians, forgettable songs and forgettable albums, are bands I have no time for.

I'm not out here saying Killswitch Engage are the worst of the worst, they're not and you could do a LOT worse, but in my eyes, being mediocre is almost as bad. There's nothing, to me, distinguishing them from any other band that shouts and then croons a bit. Just like the fanbase that supports them, there's nothing distinguinshing them.

Also, I don't have guilty pleasures. The fact that you do contradicts your elitism claim.

Originally posted by The Core
I can't do this one. Screaming is screaming. It only gets louder, more shrill, and less tolerable.

Screaming is screaming? Yes, because Ihsahn, Dani Filth and Jake Bannon all sound like triplets.

Originally posted by The Core
Well, then we're going in circles, lol. Korn felt the need to change because of so many copycats. Then again, necessary evolution gave way to outside inspiration, and they've totally lost their touch. That said, I don't know of any other band in the past decade that has shook up the genre hard enough to force bands to change.

The problem there is the fact that it's the Metallica fan syndrome all over again. "Let's play metal because we like metal.", without any forethought as to whether or not they're good. Everyone thinks they have to wear a Maiden shirt and love Judas Priest, it's no wonder metal, as a genre, isn't collectively evolving.

I mean you've got Mastodon, who are pretty much leading the way in my opinion, with regards to pure heavy metal (Though it's not traditional). Then bands like Opeth, Emperor/Ihsahn and Tool (I guess) who are on their own level above most. Norma Jean, Dillinger etc. Then bands are being shit. Bands like Bullet for My Valentine and now Trivium are so concerned with being seen as true metalheads that they don't realise it's pointless to affiliate to one genre for the sake of it.

That's why Dillinger do deserve respect, they incorporate rock, jazz, etc. I've never said "I'm a metal fan.", because I'm not. I'm a fan of some bands that make metal music.

The same applies to most areas of music, doing it because you like it is fine...but you still have to be able and have something to give. Norma Jean won't be reinventing the wheel any time soon, but it's good music, but we need bands to be exceptional in order to push things forward. With the current wave of mediocrity in metal, it's in danger of not happening.

-AC

Lajon Witherspoon is no better than your average singing vocalist. People just think he's amazing cos he's in a "metal" band. If he put out an R&B album, nobody would say a word about his "talent".

He's got a strong voice. Take into consideration how many black men have broke the heavy metal scene, and maintained the bands following. KSE was mediocre before Howard Jones came along. Now, with his stylings, they're all over the place. He's an important figure in the industry, and that's factual, proven by comparing record sales.

The point I'm making is, you called them a noise band, like you call Converge a noise band. I didn't suggest you know nothing of heavy music as a result, I'd expect you to afford me the same respect.

What I said still never questioned your cred. I'm not even trying to break down your reasoning, because there's no need. I wish I knew what a lot of bands appeal was, namely bands such as them, but I won't lose sleep if I never "get it". (Haha) Converge are a hardcore band with extreme vocals. DEP are in a league of their own, they're very much an extreme/art band. I can appreciate the art, regardless if it appeals to me, but I can't appreciate the way it's put out there, and that's OK too because it wasn't intended for me. That's all I was ever getting at.

You don't have the right to decide who is better at something just because you dislike them. You disliking Converge doesn't mean they are technically bad musicians, is my point. Me liking them doesn't make it so either, the fact that they are, is what makes them good. Creatively? That's subjective.

You couldn't come out and say Synyster Gates was more talented than Steve Vai, if you did, your opinion would be wrong.

I'm not making any decisions, I'm stating an opinion, just like you or anyone else. The difference is, I'm not pushing it as if it's gospel. There is nothing to support any "fact" that a band is good other than someone's personal conviction. It's all subjective. There's no way to "prove" a band is good. There just isn't, so everyone, not including me, takes popular opinion as fact. My appreciation or dislike for them not withstanding. If a band is just as good live as they are in the studio, which means take away ProTools, that may lend to a more positive opinion. Doesn't make it fact, however.

..besides, nobody would be stupid enough to compare a guitar virtuoso to a guitar player in a flavor of the month rock band guitarist. Well, atleast I'd hope not.

You questioned my credibility because you can't appreciate Dillinger and/or Converge, so I'm doing the same. The difference is, I don't choose to appreciate Chimaira, you CAN'T appreciate anything about Dillinger or Converge. Not even the fact that they're good on their instruments. I dislike Avenged Sevenfold, but I can admit Gates is a good player.

Crediblity, no. Taste, maybe. I like to learn about people and how they enjoy what they listen to, and maybe even sway my opinion on things. That's who I am. I tried to enjoy both bands stuff, but I can't. It's no longer by choice, I don't like what I was exposed to. I'm usually the first one to say to people that say bands "suck" that they probably don't have the talent or resources to do what they do, so just shut up. That's a level of respectability I've always maintained.

Britney Spears is an "entertainer" who uses music, Converge use music and coincidentally end up entertaining their fans. Entertainment is a part of music, but whether or not it's the intention or result are two completely different things.

You're essentially writing things off just because you simply don't "get" it.

I know this, too. Media respents true musicians by calling them "music artists" for a reason.

I "get it" just fine, and I thought that was pretty evident by now that I am capable of seperating art (DEP), music (Converge), and straight up entertainment (Tenacious D).

I'm not out here saying Killswitch Engage are the worst of the worst, they're not and you could do a LOT worse, but in my eyes, being mediocre is almost as bad. There's nothing, to me, distinguishing them from any other band that shouts and then croons a bit. Just like the fanbase that supports them, there's nothing distinguinshing them.

Who sounds a lot like KSE to you, personally. That's something we could work with. Not that I ever use sales to gauge a bands success, but 80,000 copies in 21 days is nothing to sneeze at, considering they sold 110,000 of their first album to date.

Also, I don't have guilty pleasures. The fact that you do contradicts your elitism claim.

I say it as to suggest I may like a track or two by bands I otherwise don't appreciate. It's a mild contradiction, only to get across that I'm not a fan of the band.

Screaming is screaming? Yes, because Ihsahn, Dani Filth and Jake Bannon all sound like triplets.

Like I said, it can only get more shrill (Filth), and less tolerable (Bannon). I hardly consider Ihsahn a "screamer". He's a vocalist. His new stuff sounds like Rob Halford with a head cold, though. I heard a lot of good things about Emporer, but I'm not big on black metal, personally.

The problem there is the fact that it's the Metallica fan syndrome all over again. "Let's play metal because we like metal.", without any forethought as to whether or not they're good. Everyone thinks they have to wear a Maiden shirt and love Judas Priest, it's no wonder metal, as a genre, isn't collectively evolving.

I think Korn's change wasn't because of anything you'd consider artistic merit. I think they outright sold out. Metallica, a long time ago, I came to realize had a change of heart. Wether it be personal, spiritual, or they just got tired of the same old same old. Metal, on the whole, has been stuck in 1st gear for a long time.

I mean you've got Mastodon, who are pretty much leading the way in my opinion, with regards to pure heavy metal (Though it's not traditional). Then bands like Opeth, Emperor/Ihsahn and Tool (I guess) who are on their own level above most. Norma Jean, Dillinger etc. Then bands are being shit. Bands like Bullet for My Valentine and now Trivium are so concerned with being seen as true metalheads that they don't realise it's pointless to affiliate to one genre for the sake of it.

Mastodon are very much heavy metal, and what I appreciate most about their music is that it's just plain heavy, imposing metal guitars. There are a lot of heavy metal fans that settle for medicority, and Trivium's success lies mainly in that they're the worldest greatest Metallica tribute band, giving people what they've been missing for so long.

That's why Dillinger do deserve respect, they incorporate rock, jazz, etc. I've never said "I'm a metal fan.", because I'm not. I'm a fan of some bands that make metal music.

I respect what they do, and again, I get it, it's just that being the person I am, I appreciate structure. It's like a musical OCD I have, and I don't think I am missing out on a lot.

The same applies to most areas of music, doing it because you like it is fine...but you still have to be able and have something to give. Norma Jean won't be reinventing the wheel any time soon, but it's good music, but we need bands to be exceptional in order to push things forward. With the current wave of mediocrity in metal, it's in danger of not happening.

It's about time I revisited Norma Jean. I was turned off by their vocals, like I was with Glassjaw. I'm too picky for my own good, but at the same time I don't feel, as a music lover, I should make compromises just to have something to listen to and enjoy, nor settle for mediocrity. I think you know what I mean, there.

Originally posted by The Core
Because...

Welcome to the Music Forums. You're in a debate thread with AC and C-Dic. Be warned that we're opinionated, and my opinion is that Converge isn't "good" with or without screaming. I bit my tongue on Refused, because I hate whiny, preachy politcal punk music. Let's leave their actual music out of it.

And just because you personally dont like Refused, it doesnt make them a "whiny" band. They happened to be a band that were far ahead of their years, and set the stage for bands such as Protest the Hero, who, if Im not mistaken, you like.

Originally posted by The Core
He's got a strong voice.

Need I say more? No.

Originally posted by The Core
Take into consideration how many black men have broke the heavy metal scene, and maintained the bands following.

I don't give a shit about race. Black, white, yellow, green, orange; It matters none to me. I don't think he's good because he's not, to me. Not saying he's a horrid singer, I'm saying he's mediocre. That's the problem with "metal" fans. They're cool with bands being good ENOUGH. I'm not, really. Norma Jean are good ENOUGH, but I wouldn't listen to another Norma Jean esque band, because I've already got that covered.

Originally posted by The Core
KSE was mediocre before Howard Jones came along. Now, with his stylings, they're all over the place. He's an important figure in the industry, and that's factual, proven by comparing record sales.

Sales mean nothing to me. I actually prefer Killswitch's stuff with Jesse, though.

Originally posted by The Core
What I said still never questioned your cred. I'm not even trying to break down your reasoning, because there's no need. I wish I knew what a lot of bands appeal was, namely bands such as them, but I won't lose sleep if I never "get it". (Haha) Converge are a hardcore band with extreme vocals. DEP are in a league of their own, they're very much an extreme/art band. I can appreciate the art, regardless if it appeals to me, but I can't appreciate the way it's put out there, and that's OK too because it wasn't intended for me. That's all I was ever getting at.

Fair point.

Originally posted by The Core
I'm not making any decisions, I'm stating an opinion, just like you or anyone else. The difference is, I'm not pushing it as if it's gospel. There is nothing to support any "fact" that a band is good other than someone's personal conviction. It's all subjective. There's no way to "prove" a band is good. There just isn't, so everyone, not including me, takes popular opinion as fact. My appreciation or dislike for them not withstanding. If a band is just as good live as they are in the studio, which means take away ProTools, that may lend to a more positive opinion. Doesn't make it fact, however.

It's not all subjective. It's only subjective as far as preference, which admittedly is all that's worth discussing, but you can't prefer who is better at something. You can say "I think Paul McCartney is a better bassist than Geddy Lee because I like him.". He's not, fact. You could say "I like Paul McCartney more.".

Originally posted by The Core
..besides, nobody would be stupid enough to compare a guitar virtuoso to a guitar player in a flavor of the month rock band guitarist. Well, atleast I'd hope not.

Try most metal band fans nowadays.

Originally posted by The Core
Crediblity, no. Taste, maybe. I like to learn about people and how they enjoy what they listen to, and maybe even sway my opinion on things. That's who I am. I tried to enjoy both bands stuff, but I can't. It's no longer by choice, I don't like what I was exposed to. I'm usually the first one to say to people that say bands "suck" that they probably don't have the talent or resources to do what they do, so just shut up. That's a level of respectability I've always maintained.

As long as you can respect or at least acknowledge the fact that these bands know what they're doing.

Originally posted by The Core
I know this, too. Media respents true musicians by calling them "music artists" for a reason.

I "get it" just fine, and I thought that was pretty evident by now that I am capable of seperating art (DEP), music (Converge), and straight up entertainment (Tenacious D).

That's fair enough also, I know what you're on about now. Ironically, Tenacious D are good at just making music aside from technique and such.

Originally posted by The Core
Who sounds a lot like KSE to you, personally. That's something we could work with. Not that I ever use sales to gauge a bands success, but 80,000 copies in 21 days is nothing to sneeze at, considering they sold 110,000 of their first album to date.

Go look up 50 Cent's debut album sales.

As for soundalikes, if you get down to the band alone, pick a name. High speed, high volume metal bands like Still Remains etc. I can admit that Howard Jones is the only element of that band setting them REMOTELY apart from the bands they're in with now, but as far as the band themselves go, they're simply not different enough for me to say "Yeah I'll listen to this.".

It's not a matter of direct soundalikes, it's a matter of not sounding different enough.

Originally posted by The Core
I say it as to suggest I may like a track or two by bands I otherwise don't appreciate. It's a mild contradiction, only to get across that I'm not a fan of the band.

Well...there's not much point is there?

Originally posted by The Core
Like I said, it can only get more shrill (Filth), and less tolerable (Bannon). I hardly consider Ihsahn a "screamer". He's a vocalist. His new stuff sounds like Rob Halford with a head cold, though. I heard a lot of good things about Emporer, but I'm not big on black metal, personally.

His new stuff? Rob Halford wishes he has Ihsahn's talent, he concedes that the man is a genius himself. You hear what you hear, though, I suppose.

Emperor are hardly a pure black metal band anymore, like all the best bands...they do stuff that can be attributed to many genres. You should check out the album Prometheus: The Discipline of Fire and Demise.

Originally posted by The Core
I think Korn's change wasn't because of anything you'd consider artistic merit. I think they outright sold out. Metallica, a long time ago, I came to realize had a change of heart. Wether it be personal, spiritual, or they just got tired of the same old same old. Metal, on the whole, has been stuck in 1st gear for a long time.

Mastodon are very much heavy metal, and what I appreciate most about their music is that it's just plain heavy, imposing metal guitars. There are a lot of heavy metal fans that settle for medicority, and Trivium's success lies mainly in that they're the worldest greatest Metallica tribute band, giving people what they've been missing for so long.

When everyone was dissing Trivium to counteract the sheer overrating of the band, I was saying; "Give them a shot at least.", as I did. They've genuinely decided to become a Metallica tribute band though, and it's just disgusting.

Originally posted by The Core
I respect what they do, and again, I get it, it's just that being the person I am, I appreciate structure. It's like a musical OCD I have, and I don't think I am missing out on a lot.

Everything has structure, or it'd just fall apart. Some of the greatest pieces of architecture began as wacked out drawings that people probably looked at and thought "Never going to work.". The last time people thought that about Dillinger was when they put out Calculating Infinity, which proved a lot of people wrong.

Originally posted by The Core
It's about time I revisited Norma Jean. I was turned off by their vocals, like I was with Glassjaw. I'm too picky for my own good, but at the same time I don't feel, as a music lover, I should make compromises just to have something to listen to and enjoy, nor settle for mediocrity. I think you know what I mean, there.

Our idea of mediocrity is different, so I can't comment on it, but naturally it's the same view. I notice you like The Birthday Massacre, a band I really like, but I realise they're honestly nothing special. Just a simple band making simple, really enjoyable music. However, I like them a LOT more since I saw them live, because it was one of the most fun shows I've attended.

Mediocrity can appear different in context. Sometimes bands compensate for what they lack on record for what they do on stage. I've always liked Foo Fighters, but again, liked them more after I saw them live.

-AC