Darth Vader(TESB) vs Count Dooku(ROTS)

Originally posted by The Planet
You guys need to stop looking at how this would happen on paper, but look at how they fought in the movies, and I can honestly say that Dooku pwns him in about 10 seconds. People, Vader was terrible in ESB. Slow as ****, he was unskilled, Luke who had been a jedi for what, 5 minutes, and he was able to slice his hand off. Vader gets destroyed, bad.

Okay.

In that case, all these characters suck:

Coleman Trebor
Kit Fisto
Agen Colar
Seasse Tin
Mace Windu

And if they're not in the movies, like Asajj, they don't even exist!

Thank you for opening my eyes, Captain Planet!

haha captain planet, go save the environment man

Okay.

In that case, all these characters suck:

Coleman Trebor
Kit Fisto
Agen Colar
Seasse Tin
Mace Windu

No! Coleman Trebor was taken down by Jango Fett, that doesn't make him suck. He handled the saber fine, didn't seem to be anything bad, but just got overpowered by the most powerful bounty hunter in the galaxy.

I'm of the believe that Sidious used the force to stun the jedi or something, so Agen and Saesee don't suck.

Kit Fisto definitely doesn't suck, he performed well, briefly, and fought pretty quickly. Losing to Sidious isn't a bad thing.

Mace fought fine in RotS, I don't know what you're talking about.

The OT duelists, however, were stated by George Lucas to be inferior in comparison to the PT duelists. Just watch the OT, Vader was terrible, any main PT jedi would defeat him.

And if they're not in the movies, like Asajj, they don't even exist!

Strawman! Logical Fallacy! I don't have time for this.

Originally posted by The Planet

I'm of the believe that Sidious used the force to stun the jedi or something, so Agen and Saesee don't suck.

Originally posted by The Planet

The OT duelists, however, were stated by George Lucas to be inferior in comparison to the PT duelists. Just watch the OT, Vader was terrible, any main PT jedi would defeat him.

An interview with GL where they asked him, why does so many kids like vader and palpatine, and guess what was his reply, "because they are more powerful" And isnt that G-canon?

this pretty much sums it up

Taken from Dark Lord: the Rise of Darth Vader, page 123 Vader's eyes searched Sidious's face. "Did you promise as much to Count Dooku?"

Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."

Orignally from Gideon
That seems to bring perspective on the fight. According to Sidious, not only did Dooku know what he risked in dueling Anakin, but Sidious also attributes his defeat as a lack of strength in the dark side in comparison to Vader - and if Dooku had truly been more powerful and stronger in the dark side - he would be in Vader's place as Sith pupil and second most powerful man in the galaxy. [/B][/QUOTE]

sidious never stunned them. Proof? mr "godly" debator

The fact that two of the greatest jedi warriors hardly moved a muscle in trying to defend themselves. Also Kadesh, the moment you actually win just one debate, then you can debate like a prick. I mean, what is you record now? 0-0-20?

No, he only stated that he did not at that time show how the sith and jedi really fought, And vader was remarkable in the EU, and considering the fact he grew even more powerful that he was in the purge, OT vader pretty much would beat any PT character save for yoda and mace windu. Dont lie captain planet, GL never stated that, And was vader terrible? i dont think so, that several sources pointed out that his mastery in djem so is incredible and that his powers were described as tremendous. And killing his officer from a very far distance is not impressive? i know it is. O yes and if you want to play dumb then how bout i tell you this.

I'm talking dueling only, and Vader sucked. We have visual proof, refer to ESB. To argue that Vader is anything different to how he is depicted in the highest form of canon is completely asinine. And if I remember correctly, GL said something along the lines of 'in the original trilogy, all we get to see fight is an old man [Ben], a half crippled Droid [Vader], and a boy trained by these people [Luke]'. Vader is slow, that's a fact.

An interview with GL where they asked him, why does so many kids like vader and palpatine, and guess what was his reply, "because they are more powerful" And isnt that G-canon?

this pretty much sums it up

Source?

Taken from Dark Lord: the Rise of Darth Vader, page 123 Vader's eyes searched Sidious's face. "Did you promise as much to Count Dooku?"

Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."

Orignally from Gideon
That seems to bring perspective on the fight. According to Sidious, not only did Dooku know what he risked in dueling Anakin, but Sidious also attributes his defeat as a lack of strength in the dark side in comparison to Vader - and if Dooku had truly been more powerful and stronger in the dark side - he would be in Vader's place as Sith pupil and second most powerful man in the galaxy.

Pre Cyborg Vader, moot point.

Originally posted by The Planet
The fact that two of the greatest jedi warriors hardly moved a muscle in trying to defend themselves. Also Kadesh, the moment you actually win just [b]one debate, then you can debate like a prick. I mean, what is you record now? 0-0-20?
[/B]

Originally posted by The Planet

I'm talking dueling only, and Vader sucked. We have visual proof, refer to ESB. To argue that Vader is anything different to how he is depicted in the highest form of canon is completely asinine. And if I remember correctly, GL said something along the lines of 'in the original trilogy, all we get to see fight is an old man [Ben], a half crippled Droid [Vader], and a boy trained by these people [Luke]'. Vader is slow, that's a fact.

o and this quote pretty much proves that

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.
Think its bullshit? Jedi academy backs this quote up so you fail. Not to forget shadows of the empire proves this too

Originally posted by The Planet

Source?

Originally posted by The Planet

Pre Cyborg Vader, moot point.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Okay.

In that case, all these characters suck:

Coleman Trebor
Kit Fisto
Agen Colar
Seasse Tin
Mace Windu

And if they're not in the movies, like Asajj, they don't even exist!

Thank you for opening my eyes, Captain Planet!

HOly shit that was indeed humorous.

Um i have lost and won debates fool, unlike you who has never won a debate once, And dont get me started on your debating skills,

You are like the least respected debater on this forum Kadesh, you have never beaten anyone in a debate, I have one about three in the last day or so.

Lets not forget that they did now know who sidious was going to strike yet

Seriously, what kind of bullshit point is this, Kadesh? This is why you are a terrible debater, crap like this.

Vader is slow yes, but is still decent, He was still able to take on 8 jedi masters, and take a 3 on 1 match in RODV, Even his djem so has improved as vader: the ultimate guide proved, And vader custamised his djem so with ataru and other forms, to make up for his lack of speed, proof? Vader: the ultimate guide.

o and this quote pretty much proves that

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.
Think its bullshit? Jedi academy backs this quote up so you fail. Not to forget shadows of the empire proves this too

Whether these points actually have merit to them (coming from you, I doubt it) or not is irrelevant, this is ESB Vader, and the highest form of canon as well as Lucas say that he is slow and unskilled.

Star wars insider and i found this on the starwars.com forum

Oh lord, which issue? And post a link to whatever the hell you're talking about (only you know) in the SW.com forum.

wrong, he was referring to mechanical vader at that time

They are referring to his fight with Dooku.. before Mustafar... you dumbass!!

This thread should be closed, Vader vs. Tyrannus will never reach a universal consensus.

What visual proof do we have from ESB, Planet? The part where he was toying with Luke, or the part where he cut his hand off SECONDS after being tagged on the shoulder?

It's a Lucas sourced fact that Vader was slow and inferior to the PT duelists we see fight in the films, ESB shows how unagile and slow he is, to argue that ESB Vader is anything close to Dooku with a saber is arguing against canon.

I guess AOTC Anakin > Vader then (by Planet's logic)

Yes, with a saber, he is. His speed would overwhelm him.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Speed not always be the factor here ok?

Then I'd surmise neither is strength. It works both ways, you know.

Tsui choi is just as fast as yoda

Proof to back up this ridiculous assertion?

Yes you can, OT vader has grown far stronger than ROTS anakin,

"For those craving a more specific explanation, keep in mind that Lucas has said that we've never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy. In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess."

-- Starwars.com, Episode IV Lore.

You were saying?

and do i need to point out that palpatine stated that vaders limitations are psycological and not physical?

No, you don't have to point it out because it's irrelevant.

1 word, the lightsaber.

That was actually two words.

and i wonder if what GL said was true, an interview asked him "why do so many kids like vader and palpatine?" Then lucas replied "Because they are the most powerful" Is that G-canon or something?

Link? Provide proof. I'm with the Captain on this one.

wrong, he was referring to mechanical vader at that time

"Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."

This quote is clearly referring to pre-suit Anakin. "If he had been stronger" is indicating at that point in time; not post-suit. I doubt Sidious anticipated Vader getting his limbs strewn across the banks of Mustafar.

I don't know how you could even make an argument insisting that it's post-suit Vader, The Planet's right (as much as it pains me to admit).

Okay, Planet, Vader would frickin pummel AOTC Anakin to the floor, or choke him. that n00b couldn't even block F. Lightning.

How many times do I have to argue this? Vader beats Dooku. I've said it a 100 times.

Here's my prediction of a battle between Dooku and Vader.
Dooku attempts to end the battle quickly with Force Lightning (as he always seems to do). Vader, prepared, blocks it with his saber. Then the two engage in lightsaber combat. Dooku quickly gains the advantage; his quick blows get in several glancing hits on Vader. Due to his armor, however, Vader survives. But he now understands that he can't win a defensive battle. He improvises. He begins swinging at Dooku with savage ferocity; his blows are not accurate, and Dooku easily parries several, but Dooku cannot hold against such a relentless onslaught. He is eventually beaten down. Now, one of two things could happen.
1) Dooku recovers quickly and leaps up, unleashing a torrential flow of Force Lightning. Vader's circutry is torn apart, and Dooku wins.
2) Vader grabs Dooku in an iron Force Grip, and the Count can do nothing but watch as Vader cuts him down.

Which one is more likely? This is where their personalities come into play. Part of the reason Dooku left the order was his arrogance. My prediction is that he would be shocked at his defeat in the lightsaber battle, slowing his reaction time considerably. Were this pre-suit Vader, I fear his arrogance would overcome him, slowing him down and turning this into nothing more than a game of chance. However, at this stage, Vader is a methodical planner, and would sieze any opportunity presented him. I think that the victory goes to Vader.

Read every single post I've put up on the subject if you want to know why.

By the way, I'd like to see some1 else's simulation. Come up w. one!

Did I mention that Vader channels his anger into his blows to make them even more powerful than Anakin's?
That was in something... a comic or something...
Ah, he11. I dunno.

This is not going to end ever. Majority of people put Vader > Tyrannus, but the debate will never end.

Wow! What is that? I can't quite make it out. Is that the sound of Kadesh getting curbstomped?
QED, motha****a!!

True.
Who cares, though?
(about the thread going on 4ever)

READ MY SIMULATION

I said it before, I'll say it again, he obliterates the old man. I don't see how, considering that Vader knows Dooku's tactics from when he was Anakin Skywalker, Vader couldn't block his Force lightning. Then it comes down to a duel. Now then, anyone who's read the ROTS novelization knows why Anakin beat Dooku- brute strength. And if you're going to deny Vader being stronger than Anakin, you're ON CRACK! Pardon the term, please. Granted, Vader is slower than Anakin, and would take a few glancing blows from Dooku. But I see Vader eventually crushing Dooku.