The Illuminati: Secretly in Control!!!

Started by CasanoVa278 pages

But that brings up the question, where do you draw the line with Villains becoming evil?

Would you think Black Adam evil for murdering those innocent people despite the fact his entire "family" was killed? Because to be honest, I know I should but I don't.

People like the Constrictor, Shocker etc. they aren't neccesary evil but they are villains. Are all evil people villains aswell? I don't think so, for example many machavellian characters are villains but aren't neccesarily evil like.. Vanessa Fisk or Omni Man in Invincible

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Ah the Riddler is a hard one (I know crap all about him but the basics, read a hanful of his appearances so bear with me) does he leave the clues because he wants to be caught? or simply for his amusement? Because if he leaves clues because he wants to get caught (which alot of criminals do) then its hard to judge; his OCD makes him commit the crimes, but he leaves the crimes to ensure he gets caught, I wouldn't see him going to prison for the crimes he does because on some level he's trying to stop himself. He'd end up going back to Arkham Asylum because he's mentally unstable, he'd eventually break out and reek havoc again.

Riddler has actually commented that he doesn't want to leave clues. He's come to believe that he is insane because of his inability to stop. His OCD has been shown to go so far that he once lost becuase Batman tried to reveal his identity to Riddler outside the rules of one of Riddler's games and Riddler couldn't cope with it IIRC.

He's clearly smart enough to do a lot of damage and knows perfectly well what he's doing. His actions are malicious and well thought out but not made entirely by choice which is part of the reason he's one of my favorite characters.

Originally posted by darthgoober
A villain is someone who commits wrong/evil deeds out of things like greed, which means that there is SOME purpose behind it. They don't normally go out of their way to commit evil for it's own sake. They may know what they're doing is wrong, but in the words of a movie Mob enforcer "It's just business".

A monster(I'm talking personality wise, not an actual physical monster) on the other hand sees evil actions on his part as being rewards in and of themselves. They may benefit financially, politically, etc, from their schemes, but their true motivation is normally the satisfaction they feel by bringing misery to others. They KNOW they're wrong for doing the things they take pleasure in, they just do the stuff anyway because they don't give a shit about anything other than their own gratification.

I don't know much about Rorschach, but Joker DEFINITELY falls under the heading of "Monster".

See Joker and Rorschach to me are the exact opposites. They are the identically different sides of the same coin. This is why I love Rorschach because he has no remorse for ending evil the way they have no remorse for us. If villains were actually treated this way in reality if we knew they were guilty, instead of being allowed to go on semi vacation where they can sue for not getting cable as a violation of their civic rights, the world would have allot less crime. I firmly believe consequences in this world should be allot more strict.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
But that brings up the question, where do you draw the line with Villains becoming evil?

Would you think Black Adam evil for murdering those innocent people despite the fact his entire "family" was killed? Because to be honest, I know I [b]should but I don't.[/B]

I think that if he killed them out of revenge its not overtly evil but if he did it for enjoyment and merely claimed revenge as a motivation its pretty sick.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
People like the Constrictor, Shocker etc. they aren't neccesary evil but they are villains. Are all evil people villains aswell? I don't think so, for example many machavellian characters are villains but aren't neccesarily evil like.. Vanessa Fisk or Omni Man in Invincible

Kinda brings up the sanity issue again. Doom cares deeply for the Latverian people but he still manipluates them and isn't above acts of genocide. Magneto is much the same way, he's a villian but doesn't quite view himself that way at.

People with vendeta's against heros . . . I wouldn't call them evil unless they attack people other than the hero in order to take that revenge.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Riddler has actually commented that he doesn't want to leave clues. He's come to believe that he is insane because of his inability to stop. His OCD has been shown to go so far that he once lost becuase Batman tried to reveal his identity to Riddler outside the rules of one of Riddler's games and Riddler couldn't cope with it IIRC.

He's clearly smart enough to do a lot of damage and knows perfectly well what he's doing. His actions are malicious and well thought out but not made entirely by choice which is part of the reason he's one of my favorite characters.

Ah right, then I would definetly think he should be held responsible for his crimes. Is OCD classified as insanity? or only really bad cases that cause yuo do things against your will? Do criminals with OCD get sent to mental asylums or prison?

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Ah right, then I would definetly think he should be held responsible for his crimes. Is OCD classified as insanity? or only really bad cases that cause yuo do things against your will?

OCD does fill all the DSM-IV requirements for a mental illness (self destructive, the individual feels fear etc I'll see if I can find a link to thier site). Most people with OCD undergo extreme anxiety or even terror if they cannot comply with their compulsions.

It could be said that people with OCD aren't acting entirely against their will but for the most part they feel that they have no choice.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Do criminals with OCD get sent to mental asylums or prison?

I don't know actually. I don't know of any criminal cases involving OCD.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I think that if he killed them out of revenge its not overtly evil but if he did it for enjoyment and merely claimed revenge as a motivation its pretty sick.

Kinda brings up the sanity issue again. Doom cares deeply for the Latverian people but he still manipluates them and isn't above acts of genocide. Magneto is much the same way, he's a villian but doesn't quite view himself that way at.

People with vendeta's against heros . . . I wouldn't call them evil unless they attack people other than the hero in order to take that revenge.

Dr Doom & Magneto can both be viewed as evil, but from some opinons they can be see as good (just taking it to extreme measures much like Rorschach), both men are intelligent enough to understand the consequences of their actions and do so because they believe they have reason. I think they can be classified as villains because they use force, intimidation, deciet or manipulation to get what they want.

Most villains do that to draw out heroes though, it depends why they have a vendetta. For example Bengal (as seen in New Warriors) hunted down and attempted to kill a former Vietnam vet who killed his family and kicked him out of the helicopter (he was wounded at the time). Now the only problem about this is the soldier paid his penance, was in jail for 14 years and is now a priest.. does it make Bengal evil for trying to kill him?

If you believe something to be the right thing to do, does it make your actions justifiable?

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Dr Doom & Magneto can both be viewed as evil, but from some opinons they can be see as good (just taking it to extreme measures much like Rorschach), both men are intelligent enough to understand the consequences of their actions and do so because they believe they have reason. I think they can be classified as villains because they use force, intimidation, deciet or manipulation to get what they want.

I agree that they're villians but not on the same level as someone who kills just because they can or someone who kills for conquest.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
Most villains do that to draw out heroes though, it depends why they have a vendetta. For example Bengal (as seen in New Warriors) hunted down and attempted to kill a former Vietnam vet who killed his family and kicked him out of the helicopter (he was wounded at the time). Now the only problem about this is the soldier paid his penance, was in jail for 14 years and is now a priest.. does it make Bengal evil for trying to kill him?

Thats a tough question.

Is it evil? No I don't think so.

Is it justified? Again no the man served the penalty that society saw was fit. He was also in a position to do good in the world.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
If you believe something to be the right thing to do, does it make your actions justifiable?

No but it makes your actions differnt than those taken by people who do things in order to be evil.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I agree that they're villians but not on the same level as someone who kills just because they can or someone who kills for conquest.

Thats a tough question.

Is it evil? No I don't think so.

Is it justified? Again no the man served the penalty that society saw was fit. He was also in a position to do good in the world.

No but it makes your actions differnt than those taken by people who do things in order to be evil.

(This is to the justified bit by the way)

So if your entire family and all of your friends were killed, the murderer recieves 14 years in prison and is free to walk the streets would you be content with that? The same laws and rules that we abide by that allow him to go free, make you do nothing.. Would you not attempt the same thing as Bengal?

Personally I would, I also would not see it as evil either.. Wrong maybe, but not evil.

It's like the Punisher, he can be seen as evil or a villain and even both, where do you stand with Castle?

Originally posted by CasanoVa
(This is to the justified bit by the way)

So if your entire family and all of your friends were killed, the murderer recieves 14 years in prison and is free to walk the streets would you be content with that? The same laws and rules that we abide by that allow him to go free, make you do nothing.. Would you not attempt the same thing as Bengal?

Personally I would, I also would not see it as evil either.. Wrong maybe, but not evil.

Yes I would almost certainly do what he did. It doesn't matter that sitting here talking about it I think its wrong.

Originally posted by CasanoVa
It's like the Punisher, he can be seen as evil or a villain and even both, where do you stand with Castle?

He goes to far. But I think he does it because he can't see a better way to do it.

I wouldn't consider him either evil or villianous personally. When he goes after people who aren't doing something far up on the ladder of evil I would say that his actions are wrong.

Frank doesn't seem to kill for pleasure or personal gain so I don't see him as evil. He's misled, he's dangerous, he's a criminal and he should probably be taken off the streets (did he get Registered by the way?) but he does what he does in order to help people.

Whats the worse serious thing one of the major comics could do?
We constantly talk about how to make comics better and joke about how they could screw themselves royally. So, in all seriousness whats the worse realistically possible idea a major comic title could do to their character?

Since we've for some reason taken it upon ourselves to try to sort through the philosophical/religious reasoning behind terms like "Villain", I'd just like to make sure a few things are kept in mind about those labels to reduce the confusion surrounding them.

Criminal- Someone who breaks the laws that have been established by those in charge. Pretty simple right? Whether or not someone is a criminal is dependant upon the actions of the individual in question. Just WANTING to comit a crime isn't illegal, only TRYING(and especially succeeding) in committing a crime.

Evil- Generally, evil(like truth) is decided in the eye of the beholder. Evil while once a word representing the darker aspects of the human personality, has for the most part come to mean "something that I don't like". But if you look deeper into the concept of evil, it's instead something that NO ONE else likes aside from the perpetrator. Others may like to be spectators to evil that's being committed, but NO ONE likes to be on the receiving end of an evil action. At it's basest level I believe true evil as being synonymous with sadism.

The way I see it, ALL human beings are evil on some level because sadism is the most prominent aspect of the human personality, and sadism is at the root of most(if not all) evil. The reason I feel that way is because pretty much all humans are prone to take pleasure from the misery of someone else given the proper circumstances. That pleasure derived from the suffering of others is ALWAYS evil, even if it's justified. Confusion often arises when trying to decide whether or not something is evil because people try to make that judgement based upon the actions taken when instead the judgement should be based upon the intentions behind those actions. The exact same act can be taken as being evil or good depending on what the reasons behind it are. So committing a crime isn't always an indication of evil, because the law focuses upon making generalizations, and then sorting out any extenuating circumstances during the trial period. But when you get right down to it, ANY act of sadism is evil in and of itself no matter what the cause, which is why all humans are inherently evil on at least some level.

Villain- The true classification of Villain on the other hand is dependant upon a combination of both evil acts AND evil intentions. I say "true" classification because Villain(like the word evil) has strayed from it's original meaning. Now as often as not, it's used to point out the antagonist of the story or situation, no matter what the culprits reasons are. Often whether or not someone is a villain is entirely dependant on who's making the call. If you ask Batman, Joker is undoubtedly a villain because of the crimes he commits, but if you ask the Joker about it, Batman is the real villain for spoiling his fun.

So the way it all breaks down for me(using Punisher as the example)...

1. Is the Punisher a criminal? Abso-freakin-lutely. His actions are often against the law so that's a pretty cut and dry case.
2. Is the Punisher evil? Yes. He takes pride and pleasure from causing misery to others which in my mind makes him evil. But the difference between Franks outlook and Spiderman's is primarily a matter of degree, because they BOTH enjoy putting the bad guy down.
3. Is the Punisher a Villain? No. He commits evil acts(as I've already covered), but the intentions behind them are good(and for someone to be a true villain there has to be both evil acts AND evil intentions).

I can't believe you guys got me monologuing all that crap(sorry it ended up so long). But that's the system I normally use for this kind of stuff.

👆 awsome post

I don't usually see stuff like that outside of the PhilosiphyForum at its prime.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
👆 awsome post

I don't usually see stuff like that outside of the PhilosiphyForum at its prime.


Cool. I was afraid that I'd begun rambling by the end of it, because I kinda zoned out while I was working on it. I have an erratic thought process so sometimes when I get going I'll jump from one point to another without first establishing just what the connection is between the two. But I'm glad to see that this wasn't one of those instances. And thanks for the complement by the way 😄 .

Villian=bad

so who entering darth goober tourny for are team?

I will be I just need to rethink my strategy and come up with a good 3 person amalgam for this level. If anyone has any good theories pm me. 😄

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Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
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Spunky! Thought you were gone for the rest of the week?

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
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oh