DMC 2nd viewing: the evidence

Okay, I watched DMC for the second time last night so things are fresh in my mind and I thought we could talk. There's some stuff going on, some fun and wacky stuff that I don't think we discussed. This is also going to be "evidence/facts" of what might happen in the next one.

1. The hat theory: this is the Tortuga scene where Norrington first appears and wants to join the crew before starting a massive riot. Many people think Jack's exit in this scene, the switching of the hats, is meant to symbolize a void in his life, one that Liz fills because she wears hat nearly identical to his. Let's expand on that. Look at her costume. It's modeled closely after Jack's, and her skin is darkening the longer the movie progresses. If you watch the scene on the stairs when he proposes, keep an eye on their costumes to see how similar they are.
COUNTER: Like the classic white-hat cowboys and Indiana Jones, a hero's accessories help define him. Jack loses his hat early on, but is so frightened by the kracken, he abandons it and finds it later when the kracken spits it out. The switching of the hats could simply mean that no other hat will do for Jack. That's not as deep, but not every line/scene/gesture has to be about Liz.
RULING: I don't think this theory is strong enough evidence to use.

2. "Vexed." To understand this, we have to get to the scene before, when Jack is alone with his charts. This is the scene that pops up on the dvd menu, so it is more important than meets the eye. There is no doubt in my mind Jack is thinking of Liz in this scene, so she could be vexing him. He's obviously working when he sees the compass all of a sudden switch directions which frustrates him and he goes to get more rum. Shortly after, he is told the kracken will be after him and he loses his hat and all the crew members think he's going pyscho, etc. Gibbs says something is vexing Jack and will ultimately be a bad thing for all of them. Many people are saying the main thing that is vexing Jack is Liz.
COUNTER: He's just been told Davy Jones, most feared creature to pirates, is coming to claim him and will send the kracken to get him. He's so scared he leaves his hat and says they need to get to land, any land.
RULING: Jack is definitely thinking of Liz before he goes and gets the rum. He's alone, probably frustrated with his work, and then the compass changes. Why would the compass suddenly change? But is he thinking of her enough for Gibbs to notice something is vexing him?

3. Will's references to Liz. The first is when Will has just been captured by the tribe and he tells Jack Liz is in danger. Jack stops dead in his tracks and you can see the wheels turning and he ends the conversation by telling Will to save him. Later on the ship, Will finally persuades Jack to help if he will help Jack. Doesn't Will get dragged around a lot?
COUNTER: Meh, I don't really have one. There is plenty of evidence to suggest Will and Jack don't like each other so it must be Liz that makes them get together.
RULING: I think Jack is helping Will largely (if not totally) for Liz.

4. Tia Dalma's hut. Here is a huge one. Jack is rendered speechless when Tia asks why the compass won't tell him where the key is. She then laughs, "Jack Sparrow don't know what he wants. Or maybe he do but loathe to claim it for his own." Even people not looking for clues wondered if Jack might meet a girl after that line. Tia passionately tells the story of Davy Jones.
COUNTER: I have one counter, and that's when Jack is the one to correctly answer a woman vexes a man. Notice Will doesn't say anything. He's there to learn. Notice also Jack only answers when the other answers are shot down. Now, I'm not in love with a woman, but I guessed a woman. Plus, Jack's probably heard the story before. But Tia's usually spot-on and if she says Jack's in conflict about something, he is.

5. Deleted scene. Watch the creation of Davy Jones. Of course it's really interesting on its own, but there is a clip of him playing smoking a pipe saying "it can only be a woman." It is unclear when he says this, but there is evidence that it could be geared towards Jack.
COUNTER: It could also be geared towards Will.

6. The compass. The compass points to Jack at least twice when Liz holds it and it is suggestive that it points to Liz when Jack uses it. The following are all the times in DMC when the compass is used.
a. Jack has to find a heading for the crew but the arrow is going in a circle. This can stay in because it shows Jack is in conflict about what he wants.
b. The compass spins while Jack is working, clearly frustrating him. This can also stay in because people often think a little freer when they're alone rather than with people.
c. Jack places the compass in Liz's hands and she gets a heading of where the chest is. It points straight ahead of her (where Jack WAS) but then he appears next to her. This can be ruled out because it could easily be showing where the chest is.
d. Liz pulls it out to test it and it points to Jack. This can also be ruled out because he could just be in the way. But the power of suggestion says a lot in this scene.
e. Liz uses the compass to find the chest but it points to Jack. This is huge because it should point right back to herself because she's on top of the chest. It stays in.
f. Jack comes to see what the trouble is when she says it doesn't work. It points back to her, but we find out she was on top of the treasure. This can be ruled out.

Sorry for the length! I'm hoping a lot of people have comments to make.

My ruling on the compass is that it really can't be used as evidence of anything since it either errors or is too unclear. I think the power of suggestion is more powerful evidence working indirectly through the compass.

7. The actual scenes with Liz. These by default are the strongest evidence that something is going on between them. Without the first movie, they have three big scenes together and a few other ones.
a. Persuade Me.
b. Curiosity
c. The kiss

Smaller scenes: the compass, Isla de Cruces, the fight/escape from Isla de Cruces, and the kracken battle. We've analyzed these scenes to death, no point of doing it again. I just wanted to point out one thing and it's when Will is knocked out by Jack and falls into the longboat. Jack and Liz are clearly backed into the boat and Liz looks down at Will. Jack says something to the effect of, "Unless you're going to use him to hit someone, leave him there." I think this is a little symbolic, so humor me.
Throughout the whole movie, there are two separate adventures that eventually blend into one: getting the key to the chest and getting the chest itself. Jack and Liz go after the chest. This is their adventure and while neither of them have gotten on the Flying Dutchman, Will doesn't really belong in theirs. This is their first fight side by side and it's telling Will isn't there.

So what does everyone think?

Interesting post.

1. The Hat Theory. I never bought into this one, because Elizabeth's costume is to help make her look like a guy, and most of the men's outfits in that time period look like her outfit.

As for the hat, well, most hats looked similar to each other. 😄 So I agree with you there.

2. Vexed. I think that Jack is indeed vexed by his thoughts of Elizabeth, but I would have to say another part of the problem is going to be Davy Jones and the debt Jack has to pay. He knows time is running out, and when he realizes he is really out of time, he panics. I think any thoughts of Elizabeth trot on out of his head at that time.

But yes, Jack is vexed by Elizabeth. 😄 Does it mean it's love or that they are destined to be together? Nope. 😄

3. When Will mentions Elizabeth to Jack, yes, Jack pauses, but I think that brilliant, mad mind is working over-time to try to see how he can use Will to his best advantage.

First he needs Will to save him from the Pelegastos, and then he needs Will to go get him the key. The thought of Elizabeth may have played a teeny tiny role in that, but mostly those gears turning was all about Jack trying to save himself.

4. I think Tia Dalma's hut is too vague to use as evidence for or against either ship, mainly because the purpose of the scene is to draw attention to the parallels between Davy Jones and Will.

5. I haven't seen the bit with Davy Jones, but I believe the line is to Will, and Will replies, "A woman need not cause you to be desperate if you find the right one." Or something like that. 🙄

6. The compass can't be used at all, I think, because what the writers intended and what actually showed up in the movie don't match very well.

7. Of course there is something going on between Jack and Elizabeth. But what that something is, however, is what is debateable. 😄

As far as the scene with Will unconscious while Jack and Elizabeth are backing up to the boat...you'll notice that Jack and Elizabeth aren't even fighting even more, but they are retreating.

Actually, the person who goes to help Liz the most is Norrington. Both Jack and Will are busy elsewhere. 😉

And don't forget that Will was unconscious thanks to Jack. How do you think Elizabeth would have reacted if she discovered that Jack had injured Will on purpose? Or maybe she did know, or guessed, and that played a part in why she killed Jack?

good thoughts

lots of good stuff.

i think the majority of the "evidence" is far too flimsy to rest on for absolute proof of either ship. They did an excellent job of making everything more ambiguous than gay knights.

1. hat theory. they spent a good 6 minutes on Jack trading his hat around. thats a lot of minutes to spend on a gag, which makes me think there was some ulterior symbolism to the scene. I dont know if it has to do so much with Elizabeth as just clarifying Jack's character as dissatisfied, empty, searching for something he has lost to fate earlier on. Whatever he's looking for, he's going to get it, but at what cost?

2. vexed. the writers have been very clear that Jack is vexed by elizabeth and that's just the way it is. From his exit in cotbp to his entrance and subsequent screentime in dmc, Jack is obsessing about her to the point that he can't think straight to save his own life.

3. agree with Willo.

4. there's stuff going on with Tia we just don't know about yet. Tia knows about (and perhaps has accidentally exaggerated) the connection between Jack and Elizabeth, and is clearly determined to use it for her advantage. As the compass is largely used for suggestion in dmc, and not absolutives, Tia's stuff seems to follow that vein. What she says to Jack, whether or not its true, confirms Jack's fears and gets him off thinking about certain things all the more. Tia is very obvious about playng up the story of Davy Jones, directing it at Will (especially the heart stabbing bits) and all that. And she's manipulating Jack towards a desperate end as well. My theory is that since her goal is to be free and Calypso again, she made a deal with Jack years ago (sort of a get-out-of-jail, if you will) centering around Jack using his influence to get her freed. But to cash in on that deal she has to do some huge service for Jack like bringing him back from the locker. But Tia is clearly on board with dethroning Davy Jones and putting up a new captain of the FD.

5. lots of extra lines from the script on wordplayer, dealing with that. don't know what it means, but i'm sorry it was cut. would have liked to see it.

6. damn the compass to hell.

7. like we all keep saying, there's a reason Jack and Elizabeth together get far more screentime than Will and Elizabeth.

more later. need coffee.

lol #6

Yeah, while the compass is interesting, it's at least fun to go back and watch the first movie, especially when Jack and Will are gaining on the Black Pearl. Jack looks like a crazy man looking at his compass during a storm and you can tell Will's seriously rethinking his decision to break the guy out of jail, but knowing what we know now, it's a determined, logical man just following where it says to go. We know at that point he wants the Pearl more than anything, so there is no doubt where it's pointing there.
I'm completely confused by T&T's views on the compass. They wrote in a line to explain to everyone in the audience why the compass is so special. "It shows you what you want most in this world." There. That shouldn't be hard, that shouldn't be vague in any way. If it points to something, you want it, and you want it more than anything else. But what ends up happening? EVERYONE is confused by it. I think T&T are great, but they're really messing up when they can't agree on key things like how the hell the compass works.
So we have to throw it out. Now imagine the movie without the compass. What evidence do we have now?

The confusion comes from the way the editors and director made the compass work. The original script calls for the compass to waver briefly and turn toward Jack a bit, but Elizabeth snaps it closed before it points totally to Jack.

So what we would have seen in the movie, if the script had been followed, was that the compass wavered a bit, but we wouldn't know if it pointed to Jack or if it would have gone back to pointing at the chest.

Same with the island scene. Elizabeth was supposed to have sort of walked in a triangle before she sulked, which means that the compass pointed at the chest the whole time, she just didn't understand how to read it.

Also, a huge part of the confusion was that for a while, before TnT corrected it, there were a few misquotes about the compass and how it works, such as pointing to what your heart truly desires, instead of what you want most...Want is a less specific term than desire.

Want is more temporary, I think. 😄 Hence the waffle and delicious feast comment. 😄

But I guess I just see it as semantics. To me there's no difference between "heart's desire" and "what you want most in this world." That's a pretty specific want.

IMO want and desire are in other words the same thing. We might desire or want something that we might not have the opportunity to posses.

a want is something desired, distinct from a need which is something that is necessary. It's said that we have unlimited wants, but limited supplied resources. Thus, we can't have everything we want and must look for the best alternatives sometimes that will cost us less. This may be distressing to some people and may lead to depression which can be avoided if other people can give them their original wants so long as it's not a great burden on others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wants

yeah im with willo. what you want most in the world changes, but so does your "heart's desire" or whatever you want to say. Why is one better than the other? very few people love only once their whole life. (sorry, Marianne).

Elizabeth's heart's desire or what she wants most changes a lot. so she's young. she hasnt seen everything, doesn't know exactly what she wants. what's wrong with that? i'm fine with her being confused. so sometimes she wants Jack, sometimes she wants Will, sometimes it would probably point to her father and port royal or something. the point is, she isn't dead clear what she wants most. there's no way to say its will, jack, or anyone else for sure.

whether you eat a waffle or a delicious feast, your body will process it, get rid of it, and you'll be hungry again in a few hours. like i keep saying, why is a feast better than a waffle? i just don't understand the logic there.

I actually really like the Hat Theory....i agree with KATE....they refrenced his hat too much for it to just be nothing....it means more i think!

I like to think that Jack's hat symbolizes his CONFIDENCE in a way!

In the begining Jack looses his hat b/c the monkey throws it over board and as we remember Jack in P1 would do anything to get back his HAT...it was very important to him....it's part of his image, part of his confidence, part of who he is! So for him to say leave it....he must really be on ALERT! SCARED!

When Jack looses his hat we see him go in a hectic frenzy, paniky, and doesnt seem to know what to do!

Then we see Jack looking for hats in Tortuga....trying on different ones! I see that as him searching for himself, searching for who he is, but none will do.

Then we see Liz show up with with a hat identical to Jack's and suddenly we see a new Jack, more put together....and this is when we see him interested in her....i see that as also a symbolism that she somehow completes him.....when Liz is around he knows what to do!

Then at the end we see Jack get his HAT back from the Kraken....and when he puts it on....it's like he's ready to face whatever comes his way, he has his confidence again....he says "Ello Beastie" in true Jack form....pulls out his sword and goes down fighting!

thats my opinion....theres more but cant quite seem to remember it!

Originally posted by Mistypirate
IMO want and desire are in other words the same thing. We might desire or want something that we might not have the opportunity to posses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wants

(GASPS) OMG MISTY UR BACK........AWWWWWW YAYAYAYAYA! Sorry i know this is an interesting convo but just had to shout out my girl MISTY....yay Glad ur back Love!

😐*faints*

Originally posted by PirateDiva
(GASPS) OMG MISTY UR BACK........AWWWWWW YAYAYAYAYA! Sorry i know this is an interesting convo but just had to shout out my girl MISTY....yay Glad ur back Love!

Thank u I'm glad to, I'm happy to be back. 😄

I just think people pay more attention to the hat than they need to. They can't keep the focus entirely on Liz and Norrington. It needs to be intercut with something, and Jack being Jack is more entertaining and more telling of his character than him just leaving. Jack is materialistic and at times foppish, so what better way to keep things light during this scene than to show him being like that?

I agree with Willo on the hat issue.

However, the writers have made it clear that there is a difference between what 'you heart desires most' and 'what your want most in the world', so regardless of how you want to define it, the writers have chosen to make a difference.

Not only that, but desire is a far stronger word than want. 'Desire' invokes images of longing, yearning, almost needing, whereas 'want' is more of an immediate need or craving.

As far as the comparison between the feast and the waffle, the point is not which is better, but what the writers were implying with the statement.

Basically, Elizabeth is waiting for Will, but while she is seperated from him, she sees Jack as very interesting and appealing. This doesn't mean she no longer wants Will; it just means that her immediate interest was in Jack. This doesn't make her a bad person.

Elizabeth wants Will, but she got a bit side-tracked by Jack. It didn't make her stop wanting Will. That's the point of the comment. 😄

I do think the comparison is telling though. Will is meant to be the delicious meal, and yes, while a waffle is tasty, it isn't as fulfilling as having a complete dinner. For Elizabeth, Jack is interesting and maybe tasted good, but she wants her Will. That's what she's waiting for, that's what she wants.

I also have another thought that i keep bringing up and i feel it means something but i never really get feed back:

I think Will is ultimately going to do something to help save Jack's life here's why:

In the jail scene Gov. Swann tells Will:

"Just because you would risk your life to save Jack's, does not mean he would do the same for you."- interesting because Will isnt doing all this to save Jack, he's doing it to save LIZ...i think it was a subtle plug in IMO!

Then in the Cannibal Island scene when Will was telling Jack that LIZ was facing the gallows, Jack stopped went told the pelegosts to put him away then he turned to Will and said
"SAVE ME"....i just think that is so unlike Jack to say save me.....when he could clearly do it himself....Jack is not the type to wait around and let someone save him.

so i think these lines are there for a reason more than just to be there!

What do u all thinK?

I think that Will is going to stab the heart to save Jack's life. Seriously. I can see that happening in the third film. 😄

I completely agree with you. I don't know if anyone has heard of a speculation that said that Will is going to team up with the bad guys in order to defeat the pirates. It is said that he will realize what he is doing is wrong. And we will help defeat the bad guys at the end.