Luke runs the gauntlet

Advent, it mentions that Anakin was never what he was supposed to be, but Luke could become that. It's hardly THAT big a stretch

Advent, Lightsnake is right. It states that Anakin isn't what he was supposed to become, implying he was the chosen one and was supposed to become the most powerful force user ever. However, his son COULD become that, also implying that Luke, while maybe or maybe not having ANakin's potential, could also become the most powerful force user ever. The implication that Luke=Anakin is more logical than anything else.

How can he be right? I've given a perfectly valid reason to back up my interpretation on the matter, so obviously he's not (100%) right. Can I ask, did you even read what I wrote? You see you're misinterpreting the statement, though. George Lucas makes clear what it is that Anakin couldn't become. Again, here it is:

"He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe."

That is what Anakin couldn't become, that is what Luke could've became. Even looking at the sentence immediately after, it's saying that Obi-Wan ****ed Anakin up to the point where that's impossible:

"But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor [...]"

Now, what did Obi-Wan screw up? "That". What is "that"? The chance for Anakin to become more powerful than the Emperor (see: previous sentence). He outright says that he won't be as strong as Sidious, which is what the statement is all about - being more powerful than Sidious, not rivaling Anakin or being the most powerful.

To say that Lucas is implying Luke has the second most potential, thus now the highest current, is a stretch, like I said. The statement really isn't as complex as you're making it out to be. The son [Luke] could become what Anakin couldn't, which was "somebody who would be more powerful than he [Sidious] was".

The implication that Luke=Anakin is more logical than anything else.

Actually, that's not even the second most logical explanation for the statement, let alone the most. If you're referring to potential, that is.

Planet, just so I can make this clear with you, there is no way to argue whose potential is superior out of character X and character Y. Not even by the feats they perform at a young age. Anakin is the Chosen One. Birthed by the Force itself (someone can interpret this as literal midichlorians). And yet, he did not perform the skills that one would believe he should accomplish given that his potential exceeds all others. Still, though Bane performed better feats, his potential does not rival Anakin's and his potential does not surpass Anakin's.

If you disagree, I'm sorry, but your argument is illogical and baseless. As for Sidious vs. Bane, the Dark Empire sourcebook has named Sidious the most powerful that has ever lived, combined with countless other sources that make Sidious's phenomenal strength in the dark side concrete. Hell, I could argue that Sidious's raw power is miles ahead of Bane - as it was to the point that it was destroying his body.

So, let's just say that you were right and Bane's potential did surpass Sidious's own - he never achieved it. "The most powerful Sith that ever lived" - was Palpatine not Bane.

Advent, gotta tell ya, after reading the entire interview, i tend to lean towards what they're saying. I see how it could go either way, but those were different sentences, and it doesn't state that he was only to become more powerful than Sidious. It says, "He wasn't was he was supposed to become. (the most powerful Jedi ever a'la the Chosen One) But the son could become that."

To me, and obviously a few others, it was stating that Vader was looking for anyone who was more powerful than the Emperor to kill him and help him (Vader) rule the galaxy, which is what the Emperor was also trying to do all along. However, Ob1 killed Vader's potential of being the most powerful ever, which would subsequently and obviously put him above Sidious. But now Anakin couldn't be that, but Luke could.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
but those were different sentences

What?

The entire thing ties into one whole point, which is what Anakin was suppose to become, but couldn't. And now Luke can. What Anakin was suppose to be was more powerful than Sidious, that's what Lucas is talking about.

The entire answer George Lucas gave has nothing to do with just Anakin and Luke, as everyone seems to insinuate. It's about killing Sidious and surpassing him, a feat not attainable by Anakin, but instead now by Luke. It's only dealing with growing past Sidious' power, not Anakin's full potential, other than being able to eliminate Sidious.

and it doesn't state that he was only to become more powerful than Sidious. It says, "He wasn't was he was supposed to become. (the most powerful Jedi ever a'la the Chosen One) But the son could become that."

Wow, clearly you don't know what he was suppose to become in regards to the response given. That's my entire point that everyone eludes. Look, this is what he was going to evolve into:

"Somebody who would be more powerful than he [the Emporer] was."

I really could give less a shit if anyone disagrees, because you're plainly wrong. If anyone here actually knew how to read, you'd see that Lucas is referring to Darth Vader becoming more powerful than Sidious, and now since he can't (due to the Mustafar incident), we find out that Luke can.

To me, and obviously a few others,

Was there an actual reason to state this? It was meaningless quite frankly.

it was stating that Vader was looking for anyone who was more powerful than the Emperor to kill him and help him (Vader) rule the galaxy

And? This doesn't imply having the highest potential in the galaxy, nor the same. The only thing in similarity about their potentials is that they'd grow stronger than Darth Sidious, which still leaves room for others.

However, Ob1 killed Vader's potential of being the most powerful ever, which would subsequently and obviously put him above Sidious. But now Anakin couldn't be that, but Luke could.

Again, you're wrong. Obi-Wan ****ed this up for Anakin:

"Somebody who would be more powerful than he [the Emperor] was and could help him rule the universe"

This is where everyone seems to falter. George Lucas says "But Obi-Wan messed that up", what exactly do you think "that" is? It's clearly referring to something previously stated just before. I believe we've covered that in the third grade.

Where does potential in terms of being the highest come into play? The entire thing is talking about Anakin's potential to be more powerful than Sidious and being able to kill him, likewise with Luke.

Not that Luke and Anakin have the same potential, or that Luke's is the (current) highest. To say that you can make a deduction based on that statement like that is ridiculous, at least the part about having the same potential, because even if I accepted your premise, "the son could become [that]", would only be the most powerful Force user. Something like full potential Anakin versus full potential Luke, and them having equal power isn't implied whatsoever. Assuming both characters had the same amount of and same exact training.

Being stronger than Sidious, and having the next highest potential are really the only two viable options. The latter is stretching it to the limit, as well.

Advent, where is the entire quote again. I didn't actually read it, just what you wrote.

OK here's what I derive from the statement Advent. I see what you're saying about what Lucas is saying but you can add more logical deduction to it. Anakin was supposed to become more powerful than the emperor, in fact according to Lucas, twice as powerful. This statement is saying that Luke is supposed to become what Anakin didn't, which would be twice as powerful as Sidious as originally stated by Lucas. So if you add all that up, you get the insinuation that either Luke=Anakin or both Luke and Anakin would be twice as powerful as the emperor, and Luke's potential compared to Anakin's is still unknown. This however doesn't really take away from the fact that Luke really is the most powerful star wars character ever created.

Originally posted by Advent
What?

Originally posted by Advent
The entire thing ties into one whole point, which is what Anakin was suppose to become, but couldn't. And now Luke can. What Anakin was suppose to be was more powerful than Sidious, [b]that's what Lucas is talking about. [/B]

Originally posted by Advent
The entire answer George Lucas gave has nothing to do with just Anakin and Luke, as everyone seems to insinuate. It's about killing Sidious and surpassing him, a feat not attainable by Anakin, but instead now by Luke. It's only dealing with growing past Sidious' power, not Anakin's full potential, other than being able to eliminate Sidious.

Originally posted by Advent
Wow, clearly you don't know what he was suppose to become in regards to the response given. That's my entire point that everyone eludes. Look, this is what he was going to evolve into:

"Somebody who would be more powerful than he [the Emporer] was."

Originally posted by Advent
I really could give less a shit if anyone disagrees,[B]

Originally posted by Advent
[B]because you're plainly wrong. If anyone here actually knew how to read, you'd see that Lucas is referring to Darth Vader becoming more powerful than Sidious, and now since he can't (due to the Mustafar incident), we find out that Luke can.

Originally posted by Advent
Was there an actual reason to state this? It was meaningless quite frankly.

Originally posted by Advent
And? This doesn't imply having the highest potential in the galaxy, nor the same. The only thing in similarity about their potentials is that they'd grow stronger than Darth Sidious, which still leaves room for others.

Originally posted by Advent
Again, you're wrong. Obi-Wan ****ed this up for Anakin:

"Somebody who would be more powerful than he [the Emperor] was and could help him rule the universe"

This is where everyone seems to falter. George Lucas says "But Obi-Wan messed that up", what exactly do you think "that" is? It's clearly referring to something previously stated just before. I believe we've covered that in the third grade.

Originally posted by Advent
Where does potential in terms of being the highest come into play? The entire thing is talking about Anakin's potential to be more powerful than Sidious and being able to kill him, likewise with Luke.

Originally posted by Advent
Not that Luke and Anakin have the same potential, or that Luke's is the (current) highest. To say that you can make a deduction based on that statement like that is ridiculous, at least the part about having the same potential, because even if I accepted your premise, "the son could become [that]", would only be the most powerful Force user. Something like full potential Anakin versus full potential Luke, and them having equal power isn't implied whatsoever. Assuming both characters had the same amount of and same exact training.

Originally posted by Advent
Being stronger than Sidious, and having the next highest potential are really the only two viable options. The latter is stretching it to the limit, as well.

Darth sexy: here ya go"

"He's not Satan, he just goes down to the corner and gets Satan's cigarettes.

You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

No, Advent's quite clearly right here. The 'But the son could become that' quite clearly refers to the 'somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe'.

Originally posted by Sexyback
No, Advent's quite clearly right here. The 'But the son could become that' quite clearly refers to the 'somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe'.

Thats still questionable. Its a definite possibility, but its still questionable. The only person who actually knows is Lucas himself. I can quite honestly see it both ways, and its difficult to determine what GL's meant to be saying..

Ok, in general, what was Anakin supposed to become? The most powerful force user ever. What messed that up for him? Ob1 by cutting his limbs off. If Luke is second only to Anakin, and Anakin doesn't take his place at the top, then who is next to be the best? Luke.

I acknowledged that what Advent is saying is one way of looking at it, but as i said, and like Anomaly just verified, it's not a definitive statement, otherwise there would not be this much speculation and differences of interpretation among all of us.

But tell me that my logic is wrong. It's not, but try to tell me why you might think that logic is incorrect.

I've already tried explaining it, and Darth Subject is right. What was Anakin supposed to become? The most powerful force user ever, and twice as powerful as Sidious. His son could become that, so while I will agree with Advent for the time being and say it's not logical to compare force potential, we can derive from that quote that Luke was supposed to become the most powerful force user ever, just like Anakin was supposed to.

Well the way I'm looking at it, it's pretty conclusive. Just carefully read Advent's post, it's pretty clear.

I have read it carefully and it's obviously not that clear. When Lucas flat out said, "Anakin is the Chosen One." that was clear, and you still managed to try to argue it, now that Advent is saying what she believes, then it's clear. Let me ask you, if Kadesh made the exact same argument, or even Lightsnake, would you still agree? I'm guessing not because of who they are, much like how alot of people tend to flat out agree with Advent because of who she is. She knows her shit and is very good are articulating her arguments. However, while I respect her as a debater more than anyone else on here, well maybe tied with Ush, Escape and PVS, I don't simply agree with her on this. That's not to say she's 100% wrong, because I can definitely see why she feels that, and it is warranted, but we feel he meant something more than that.

Let me ask you, if Kadesh made the exact same argument, or even Lightsnake, would you still agree?

Probably not. 😛
No, but seriously speaking, if they made an argument as good as that, then sure, I would agree with them. It's not who's arguing it, it's the argument itself. And it's not like I've never agreed with Lightsnake, because I have very many times. Me and Kadesh just don't share any of the same views whatsoever, though I do recall agreeing with him in a Nihilus thread for example.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Being two separate sentences could lead one to believe two different points are implied.

Which are two separate sentences? The two I provided in my initial post (about Kenobi and being more powerful than Sidious)?

If so, then it's clear it refers to one point. I've already went over those two specific sentences step by step, and explained in perfect detail to the point where it's irrefutable regarding what "that" is when he talks about Obi-Wan ****ing up Anakin's chances, anyone with half a brain can see that the sentences come right after another, and can see what Lucas is referring to when he states that.

If not, then what specifically are you talking about?

The way I understood it (although I see your perspective) was that he(Lucas) said "he was like Maul or Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become." which was the most powerful, although I know that neither Dooku nor Maul were able to overthrow Sidious.

Just to make clear about the Darth Maul and Count Dooku comment, for the general public, if you would've read the entire article, and the questions and answer made before, you'd see see the exact meaning behind him talking about Darth Maul or Count Dooku, which is quite simply just being a subordinate of Sidious, who does his bidding:

"Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

Anyways, what you don't understand is that you are taking the answer given out of context, and putting your own definitions behind his words whereas I'm using strictly what he said, not things that might not necessarily need to be added. There is no hidden agenda behind what Lucas is talking about, he is not referring to Anakin being the Chosen One, or Luke rivaling his potential.

As a matter of fact, all he's talking about is someone who could have a greater scope of power than the Emperor himself. Someone who could kill the Emperor, really. Which was what Obi-Wan ****ed up for Anakin (in regards to this), as I made perfectly clear, and thus "what he was supposed to become".

I understand that Advent, but he would do so by being the absolute best.

Since when is that the standard for killing Darth Sidious? There are no set requirements of being able to kill him, the only one - which is painfully obvious - is being more powerful than he is.

This is another point that falters easily due to the lack of logical reasoning behind it. It's tantamount to me saying that a requirement for defeating Batman in hand to hand combat is being the best melee fighter there is. When, in reality, one only need be more skilled and powerful.

Unless you can prove definitively that no one aside from Anakin and Luke could be more powerful than Sidious in potential, then it really doesn't matter. He's the best Sith Lord so far, which still leaves room for people like Jacen Solo, earlier eras, and later generations of Sith to be more powerful in potential. The former, in my opinion, could be greater than Luke himself eventually, although I cannot say for definite, we'll have to wait.

That's what i'm talking about, and obviously the answer isn't so definitive if so many people are interrupting differently.

I've only said that it's wrong to say Anakin and Luke have equal potentials, I've stated since my initial post that there's only two options, and the one that leans towards your end of the fence is pretty far fetched.

Again, aside from Luke rivaling Anakin, everything else is just an opinion on my part. I don't feel the need to add things like "IMO" often, because in discussions like this, it's quite clear it's opinion (save for obvious facts, and things that cannot be deduced or logically stated). Much like stating things such as "X is right!" or "X is wrong!", which I do.

They may seem absolute, but it's much less bothersome to remove things like "Well, it could be either way, and I believe..." or "In my opinion", or "From my perspective" every other line.

then why push so hard?

Even if I don't care if anyone disagrees, it doesn't mean that I don't want to make my facts known for the purpose of my own pleasure.

Well, i wish i knew how to read

Hooked on Phonics.

My whole thing is, since Anakin was meant to be the most powerful ever, and now he can't be, that Luke would take his spot as the most powerful ever. Not his equal in FP, just the undisputed best ever.

See above, see previous posts.

Again, George Lucas makes specifically clear as to what it is that Anakin lost the chance to become in that specific case, what it was that Darth Vader was looking for, and what Luke could become.

Which again, was this:

"He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful. Somebody who would be more powerful than he [the Emporer] was."

Yes, you are stating what you feel is meant in the answer, and I was saying that I, along with others, believe what I was about to type.

No, the "along with others" part is what really had no business being mentioned, ergo it was "meaningless". I'm fairly (100%) certain that I wasn't referring to what you believe, but mentioning other members is irrelevant.

That's not to say that me pointing it out wasn't also meaningless, as well.

Meaningless?

Yeah, I believe that's exactly what I said.

About as much as insulting ones who don't agree with you.

I barely insult those not deserving. I haven't insult everyone who has disagreed with me, so get your facts correct.

Even if you want to be a prick about it, and consider something going along the lines of taking a subtle blow about eyesight or literacy, then I still haven't done that to all who have opposed me.

OK, so not to put words in your mouth, but if you're saying I'm wrong about OB1 messing up Anakin's ability to be the most powerful force user ever, then what did stop Anakin from achieving that goal?

I'm not saying that Obi-Wan didn't mess that up, I'm saying that the only thing that Obi-Wan messed up, in the context, is becoming greater than Darth Sidious.

I don't think Lucas had more in mind than what he directly said.

And OB1 only messed up Anakin's chances for being more powerful than Sidious?

In the context of the entire response given, yes.

Well, being the most powerful, and being more powerful than Sidious are one in the same.

See above, see below.

No, they aren't. For that to be true, Sidious' potential would have to be the second (current) highest. Can you offer up any proof whatsoever that Sidious' potential surpasses that of everyone (for definite)? Oh? You can't?

In the beginning of the the paragraph, however at the end, he states he was now like Maul or Dooku, and not what he was meant to be, which would ultimately be the most powerful ever, That's what I said up top.

Originally posted by Advent
Anyways, what you don't understand is that you are taking the answer given out of context, and putting your own definitions behind his words whereas I'm using strictly what he said, not things that might not necessarily need to be added. There is no hidden agenda behind what Lucas is talking about, he is not referring to Anakin being the Chosen One, or Luke rivaling his potential.

As a matter of fact, all he's talking about is someone who could have a greater scope of power than the Emperor himself. Someone who could kill the Emperor, really. Which was what Obi-Wan ****ed up for Anakin (in regards to this), as I made perfectly clear, and thus "what he was supposed to become".

Not that they were overall equals, but just that Luke would be the undisputed "best and most powerful ever". Again, that may have been my fault if i gave that premise.

You definitely did give the impression that you were swayed by what the opposition (Lightsnake and Darth Sexy) was saying. It really doesn't matter, though, it's not like it hinders much to either side of the argument.

So, Luke having the second highest potential behind his father is stretching it the limit? How so? Why would that be beyond comprehension?

In this context, yes it is. I'm not saying that Luke cannot possibly have the second highest, but if you were to use this statement as your sole evidence that he's got the greatest potential currently, then that is pushing it. Even using the response Lucas gave at all is still right up there, next to that, since other people can have a higher potential than Darth Sidious himself (possible candidates: Exar Kun, Darth Bane, Darth Zannah, Jacen Solo).

He's obviously displayed feats not done by others

Feat Wars aren't really applicable in this debate.

and has already been said to be the most powerful of all times, so why not say that his potential was second only to Anakin's full potential?

Who cares if he is the most powerful Jedi in regards to his powers at that time? Others haven't even gotten a chance to reach their own potential, so it's not fair or definite to say something like that.

We'll have to wait and see when the possible happens, Jacen becomes more powerful. That doesn't have to happen, but it would bear to light some new arguing material.

Regardless of the above, it's apparent that neither side will fold, and neither side's interpretations can be made absolute to each other. I would say just agree to disagree, as lame as it may be, seeing as we've been arguing in circles since my initial post. That doesn't mean that I won't continue to argue this later, or right now even (if you weren't to submit), but currently I really don't feel any progress will be made.

And to note, sorry for the double, but I exceeded the allowed length of a post.

Edit:

Actually, I'm not sorry, as I could give a shit less.

Originally posted by Gideon
Planet, just so I can make this clear with you, there is no way to argue whose potential is superior out of character X and character Y.
Not even by the feats they perform at a young age. Anakin is the Chosen One. Birthed by the Force itself (someone can interpret this as literal midichlorians). And yet, he did not perform the skills that one would believe he should accomplish given that his potential exceeds all others.

That's why I so often ask for proof that Anakin's potential is indeed the greatest.

Still, though Bane performed better feats, his potential does not rival Anakin's and his potential does not surpass Anakin's. If you disagree, I'm sorry, but your argument is illogical and baseless.

Proof? It is highly implied that Bane is the sith'ari, the sith's chosen one, so it would make sense that his potential would at least rival Anakin's.

As for Sidious vs. Bane, the Dark Empire sourcebook has named Sidious the most powerful that has ever lived,

It's funny, the quote you gave ('the most powerful sith who had ever lived had risen'😉 was nowhere to be found in the DESB, not on the page you originally supplied, and nowhere in the sourcebook (I have the sourcebook in acrobat reader form, so it's very easy for me to check up on these things).

combined with countless other sources that make Sidious's phenomenal strength in the dark side concrete.

Phenomenal, yes, but a valid source has still never been brought to my attention that labels Sidious as the most powerful sith who ever lived, so Bane could still easily surpass him.

Hell, I could argue that Sidious's raw power is miles ahead of Bane - as it was to the point that it was destroying his body.

That argument would be invalid, as you would be ignoring other variables, such as the age and strength of his body, his willpower, his control of his powers, how often he used the darkside etc..

So, let's just say that you were right

I am right. 🙂

and Bane's potential did surpass Sidious's own - he never achieved it. "The most powerful Sith that ever lived" - was Palpatine not Bane.

Again, Palpatine has never been confirmed as such, and even if he had, it's not like statements like that have never been retconned.

I'll be back later, but I would suggest correcting your sources. AcStyles provided the quote from the sourcebook, not me.