Originally posted by darthsith19
Lets see... Cin was said to be strong enough to take out EU Grievous, who put up a decent fight against Windu, so we know that Cin's one of the top ROTS Jedi.
We also know that by the fact Anakin was already manhandling a padawan with one hand, and using the other to fight Cin Drallig, that his skills are nowhere remotely close to Anakin's own.
And he was said to be strong enough to take out Grievous? In regards to purely ightsaber combat? Or overall combat? ? Oh, wait. Nevermind, seeing as it matters not due to the fact that it wasn't actually confirmed by an omniscient narrator. In any case, we also need to take a look at another comment Count Dooku makes in regards to General Grievous in the same passage:
"But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters"
Now, here Tyranus is making a generalization that "any" of the Council members will give Grievous trouble, and that's just taking the explanation as its least conventional meaning. It more or less means he'd probably be beaten. However, we see on two occasions, Grievous handles Council members:
Oops! There goes that. We also see him fend off Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, two of the Council, along with several other Jedi (including Aayla Secura). He handles the former with great ease, and the latter with minimal difficulty given the number. It's quite obvious that we can't take the Count's words in that regard as literally meaning Cin would defeat him, or is stronger than him. We also hear Count Dooku reprimand Grievous for using "power moves", following that he makes the statement regarding Drallig and the others, and then goes on to say that he needs to use "finesse" in his movements. So, it can be said that Dooku was only trying to get Grievous to be on top of his game completely for facing the Jedi, not that Cin is necessarily stronger.
Also, regardless of him knowing both characters, it's a stretch to say that he can beat him solely based on his words alone. If we count this, then Mace Windu and the B-Team (sounds like a band, eh?) are better than Yoda and Obi-Wan and the Count claiming to be "more powerful than any Jedi" is correct.
Even so, it doesn't really matter if he can defeat him or not. Seeing as it can be easily deduced Anakin can fight with one hand whilst gripping another, struggling being, and still beat Cin. As well, I'd like to see where Count Dooku says Cin can best him with minimal difficulty, because if he can beat him in lightsaber combat, it'll probably be a practical stalemate. Or, at least, no easy task.
Qui-Gon put up a pretty good fight against Maul and rivals Mace Windu.
Correction: Qui-Gon got owned in single combat against Darth Maul. As for that quote that's supposedly in the TPM novel, give me the exact quote and/or page number. Seeing as I've just searched through the e-book, and see no mention, I'd like to know exactly what to search for. So, prove up.
Anyways, sorry, but I don't argue against statements that are twisted or vague. Even if the quote exists, "rivals Mace Windu" to the common reader or someone who had no idea what the hell you were touting off (as par) would take that as RotS Windu, who would kick the ever living shit out of Qui-Gon. If it exists, it's only referring to TPM Mace Windu, who we have no idea how good he is.
"Put up a pretty good fight"? Did you even watch the same movie as I - and the rest of the world - did?
As soon as the energy rays allow passage, Qui-Gon attacks and is owned in 30 seconds. That's not a "pretty good fight" by any stretch of the word. And, we take into account two other important factors about that scene, from the script and novel:
"When the wall between QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL opens, QUI-GON is in a split second fighting the DARK LORD with a ferocity not seen before.
He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity[...]"
He was clearly fighting at the best to his ability and seemingly revitalized, yet he still got demolished. It was no contest, and the Tatooine scene in the novelization (just omniscient words comparing them) proves that Qui-Gon cannot compete with Darth Maul. If you'd like, I can produce them all for the purpose of this particular segment of the debate.
I don't see Anakin taking them two.
Then take off the blindfold, and equip your super spectacles as you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Fighting with one hand isn't necessairly a disadvantage
Did I actually outright say it was? No, I don't recall me doing such. Although, I will say now that it is a disadvantage in this case, for two reason:
1. Anakin's full strength, and speed in his swings would be diminished given that two handed combat is obviously more powerful than one in terms of strength. And the swings would generate more velocity, too.
2. He had his other hand in use to choke a padawan, whereas the likes of Darth Vader and Count Dooku haven't been shown to do this. She would be struggling obviously (unless this was a mutant Human, who doesn't respond to having their airway blocked and gripped), and thus a distraction and the like. It's definitely a hinder in a duel, to deny something like that is purely ludicrous.
Vader fights with one hand sometimes in the OT, Dooku fights with one hand alot
Wow, they are also well versed in the area. Makashi is practically made for one handed usage, and Darth Vader has Makashi intertwined in his form, from what I've heard.
In any case, prove Anakin was as adept at using one hand as he was two. You'll find it's hard, nigh impossible. So, I'll use the default of skepticism and assume he's not as good (which is logical anyways).
fighting with one hand instead of two doesn't say much.
Neither does your rebuttal.
And what have we seen? Him block two swings from Drallig in the security cams? And your judging the entire fight off of those 2 seconds? Purr-lease.
"Purr-lease"? Whatever, Garfield.
To get to the point, I'm deducing (something you probably don't understand based on your posts), that it wasn't much of a challenge, if any. And furthermore, watching that scene over, we see Anakin block a strike from the padawan, and then simultaneously blocking a strike from Cin Drallig, and grabbing the padawan by the throat, then blocking a couple more shots.
If Darth Vader was confident enough in his ability to do such (and he had reason, seeing as he killed him), it can be easily said that he was hardly any difficulty, if any.
he lost that quickly because he didn't have the room his form needed to be at it's best
ORLY?
Prove up then. Why is Obi-Wan, who also used Ataru, able to keep up with Darth Maul?
otherwise he'd have lasted longer, as he lasts longer on Tatioone
Wow, unsupported assumption much?
He lasts longer on Tatooine for one simple reason, and it's not because of "more room". Darth Maul only uses one blade on his lightsaber, instead of his usual two, by the way. Which we can obviously assume he is better at. What we also know is that Darth Maul was only testing him, yet Qui-Gon almost died from a heart attack due to the fact Darth Maul was that much better at that point (and Anakin, is in turn, that much better than Darth Maul):
"He had barely escaped with his life, and the thought was worrisome. His opponent was strong and had tested him severely." (The Phantom Menace, Ch. 22)
He's only being tested, yet almost dies from exertion, and is as tired as a mule after walking the Oregon Trail straight through. If you want, I can post more excerpts of the Tatooine battle that show Darth Maul as being the superior by lightyears, and that Qui-Gon would've stood no chance had he been going all out. Nice that you don't include all the facts yet again, but don't worry - I don't let that type of bullshit pass for fact.
QED.
and then he's fighting Maul at his full strength and he hasn't found a new reserve of strength.
On Tatooine? Are you a retard? He didn't need to find "a new reserve of strength" because he was already in peak condition, I'd assume. That whole strength bit was about Qui-Gon tiring out, and then revitalizing himself to the point where he's fighting at his best ever shown in the movie.
If you weren't referring to Tatooine (what else would you be, though?), then disregard the "retard" question.
One hand tied behind his back, yeah, but blindfolded? That's alot of speculation, we have no idea how good he is with Force Sight.
If a neophyte farmboy, with absolutely no training whatsoever with either a lightsaber or the Force ever in his entire life was able to block some blaster bolts from even a remote droid, someone like Anakin Skywalker can take down Qui-Gon, I'm sure. The difference in abilities and physical attributes is that much greater.
"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."
And then when you add in Cin, who's stronger than EU Grievous, there's no way Anakin can win.
See the above.
And uh, yes he can, FFS! There's no actual proof that he's any stronger than Grievous other than the word of a fallible, third party character. Even so, stronger in what way? Overall? Could it be that he could defeat a machine, which doesn't have any Force powers whatsoever?
"There's no way Anakin can win"? Wow, obviously when you pull your deluded head out of your ass, you'd see how much is wrong with this statement alone.
We may have never seen Cin do anything but from what Dooku said we know he must be good.
See the above.
On the contrary, we've seen him been fended off by Anakin with one hand while choking a padawan. And he may be good, but so was Count Dooku. In fact, he's described as one of the most powerful in the Jedi Order's existence, and thusly ever (seeing as he's "an even greater Sith"😉, yet Anakin demolished him.
[darthsith19] Count Dooku defeated Sora Bulq, who was a Vaapad practicioner and master, and Master Tholme, who was no shabby duelist himself, in a lightsaber duel. He was also toying with them. Anakin made his skills look like child play's during the one on one duel. In any case, there's no way in hell that Drallig and Jinn could ever hope to make Count Dooku look like a fool. Ergo, Anakin wins. [/darthsith19]
Actually, that makes a pretty good case for my side, but using [Advent]™ is better.
I doubt Anakin could take out EU Grievous with any amount of ease.
I'd like to oppose the same question in regards to Cin: since when has Cin ever been able to? Oops! Your implications, again, are off the charts.
Otay, WTF is this about Anakin being on the gauntlet?
*Hits everybody over the head with a metal crowbar*
There, now PLEASE NOTICE THAT IT MENTIONS ANAKIN IN THE OPPONENT'S BOX OF TWO OF THE TIERS!! NOWHERE ELSE! AND MOST CERTAINLY NOT ON THE CHALLENGER's SIDE!!!! EVERYBODY, ON THE COUNT OF THREE, heads out of your butts NOW!!!!!!!
There, now was that so bad?
OK, as for my perspective, if they survive the Mace-Annie double combo, they fall at Yoda's team.
Due to the ambiguous nature of the Jedi's ranking system (at least as far as I know) it is either going to be Cin or Qui-Gon who is going to be the weakest link here.
Qui-Gon likely has the advantage of experience (read the Jedi Quest books for a good idea about what he went through), though he is past his prime.
Cin; the only sources we have on him is that he is in charge of a lot of saber practicees, as he is the (I think this is his rank) the Battlemaster (no mean feat by any means), and that he is a Nimian master (akin to being the largest metropolitan police department in Poland of 1939 when either the Wehrmact, the Red Army, the Slovak army, a combination of which, or all three, are banging on your door). I cannot positivly decide which.
I do know that Yoda gave Sids a run for his money, and though I doubt that Sids is the strongest force user that ever lived, giving the fate of the "arresting detachment" om Episode III, I am willing to bet that that is no mean feat. If Bane or Kas'im cannot eliminate the lesser two quickly enough, somebody is going to die from having a minute green lightsaber coming out of their ribs.
Likewise, if they try to split up, the one trying to hold off Yoda is going to be VERY heavily pressed from the first second. And if he bites it, it is suddenly anywhere from 2-3 versues one. And if they try to team up against Yoda, than the other two are more than smart enough to begin to play Lightsaber Xylophone on their ribs.
And if by the stroke of devine that they get the other two out of the way before Yoda gets to them, I would say Yoda. Not by a very confortable margin by any idea of the word, but he does.
And if by some chance they come out on top, than the Blitzkreig of Bastila, Vader, and Palpatine will leave them looking like a tree that was in the center of a Napoleonic Fusilade duel.
