ROTS Mace & TESB Vader vs. ROTS Sidious & ROTS Anakin

And what would possess you to make such a claim?

Vader possesses twenty years more experience in the Force - specifically the Dark Side. He's spent those decades also actively hunting down renegades and Jedi Knights who managed to survive Order 66. His lightsaber prowess is not on the level of his RotS self, certainly not, but he is still formidable in that area. However, in Force prowess? It is a ridiculous assertion to think otherwise. He has more experience and much more control over the Force than what he had before, and he has likely mastered many more techniques than Anakin did. The obvious mental advantage is in Vader's court, as he applies tactics to his duels - and he is very much willing to use the Force when necessary (and he has Sidious's knack of manipulating his environment to his advantage).

It depends on the situation. Anakin will indeed curbstomp Vader if it ends up in a lightsaber duel. If he can make the distance and cross blades with Vader, his grace, agility, speed, and technique will give him a comfortable edge over Vader and let him win. However, should Vader decide to use the Force - he has an excellent chance of winning.

I am putting my money on Anakin, though. But not by a lot. Likewise, if Sidious has killed Mace, it won't really matter.

And what would possess you to make such a claim?

By watching them both in action, and considering their feats. Anakin is more skilled in every single aspect; strength with the force, speed, agility, stamina, physical strength etc.

Vader possesses twenty years more experience in the Force - specifically the Dark Side. He's spent those decades also actively hunting down renegades and Jedi Knights who managed to survive Order 66.

Considering these statistics is great and all, but you have to realise that they don't always give an absolute indication as to your argument. Regarding feats is a much more reliable way to gauge someone's power than simply basing estimations off of in-absolute statistics.

His lightsaber prowess is not on the level of his RotS self, certainly not, but he is still formidable in that area.

Hardly, he fights like an old man.

However, in Force prowess? It is a ridiculous assertion to think otherwise. He has more experience and much more control over the Force than what he had before, and he has likely mastered many more techniques than Anakin did.

Considering these statistics is great and all, but you have to realise that they don't always give an absolute indication as to your argument. Regarding feats is a much more reliable way to gauge someone's power than simply basing estimations off of in-absolute statistics.

The obvious mental advantage is in Vader's court, as he applies tactics to his duels - and he is very much willing to use the Force when necessary (and he has Sidious's knack of manipulating his environment to his advantage).

I know what you are trying to say here, but what you've just written doesn't actually make sense. Since when did tactics and willing-nous to use the force factor in on mental advantage? Though I will say that one thing Vader has over Anakin is a proper fighting mind-frame.

However, should Vader decide to use the Force - he has an excellent chance of winning.

I'm not seeing it...

That is because your bias, planet, you obviously hate vader.

Vader > anakin in strength, RODV proved this

Gideon is pretty much right, vader would go down in a lightsaber duel because he is not as fast and agile, but didnt he take down people far faster than he was?

If it comes to the force, the majority proves vader > anakin execept for vader-haters like you.

By watching them both in action, and considering their feats. Anakin is more skilled in every single aspect; strength with the force, speed, agility, stamina, physical strength etc.

Watching such things with a predisposed verdict on the situation (bias) is irrelevent. Speed, agility, and stamina? Yes, Anakin is superior to Vader in these three aspects. Physical strength? No. Vader's cyber implants give him a constant state of superhuman strength beyond the occasional burst of physical ability that Anakin gets - and, really, that is an excellent example of bias. Strength with the Force? His potential has been reduced - but his control and experience has increased by far.

Considering these statistics is great and all, but you have to realise that they don't always give an absolute indication as to your argument. Regarding feats is a much more reliable way to gauge someone's power than simply basing estimations off of in-absolute statistics.

Please. The twenty years of studying the dark side of the Force is proof in itself as well as his active state in combat as far as Jedi are concerned. He spearheaded the purge which put him in single combat against Jedi. Attempting to refute that does nothing but underline the "bias" in your posts.

Hardly, he fights like an old man.

An old man with considerable experience, superhuman strength, and cyborg-implants that allow him to withstand outrageous amounts of punishment, and 80% of the strength of the most powerful Sith Lord.

I

know what you are trying to say here, but what you've just written doesn't actually make sense. Since when did tactics and willing-nous to use the force factor in on mental advantage? Though I will say that one thing Vader has over Anakin is a proper fighting mind-frame.

Amazing. Since when did tactical skills and experience and eagerness to use one's advantage not give someone a mental advantage?

I'm not seeing it...

I don't expect you to.

Actually gideon, if you had read RODV, palpatine stated that vaders limitations are psychological and not physical, that if he shakes loose his doubts, The incredible power that he once could have got of begin twice as powerful as sidious would re-awaken

sith power resides in the will, not flesh

And darth sion pretty much proves palpatines quote.

And by the OT, he pretty much got rid of some of these doubts thus becoming stronger with experience, skill and knowledge of the dark side of the force. Wasnt vader 80% of ROTJ sidious who is like what stronger than ROTS sidious? That would make vader 90-95% of ROTS sidious?
Sidious did grow in power, eaw and foc backs this up big time

According to tESB's commentary, Lucas said that Vader "lost his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor" hence why he needs Luke. So, Sidious was wrong.

Planet...you're the one who said strength in the force (raw power) means nothing in regards to combat prowess, now because Anakin has the strongest potential or connection, he is above Vader?? WTF is that? You say Kas'Im spent decades training with a saber which makes him uber, right? Well Vader spent decades training and mastering the darkside of the force from the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived. Does that mean that he's uber? No, because Lucas understands that making force gods and then putting them in the movies is retarded.

Also, up until you started salivating over Bane "pulling a moon out of orbit", you always stated that feat wars mean nothing when debating over who is more powerful and will win in a fight, now that it's against Vader, you think feats are a good way to judge the victor in a battle.

But in comparison to one another, here's one for you:

Anakin was choking the shit out of Padme, a woman, and concentrating extremely hard, and couldn't even kill her.

Vader would call up guys on other ships from incredible distances away, and killed them quickly while talking to others and not dedicating all his focus on them.
Obviously, Vader has the advantage in the force department. Also, at the time of the Mustafar duel, we don't know what percentage of Sidious Anakin was, but it's doubtful he was already 80% of him, while we KNOW that Vader was.

Physical strength...have we seen Anakin pick a man up by his throat with one hand and throw him away like a doll? No, what have we seen Anakin do to display physical strength? What, carry OB1 on his back? Whoopdi doo, he did a fireman's carry on a 175lb man (give or take).

Escape wasn't saying that a mind state and willingness to use the force gives you a mental advantage, just...an advantage, and then his next sentence was just simply stating that Vader also has the mental advantage, which he does. There's a lot of ways that Vader could win, even getting Anakin really shook in a lightsaber duel could give him an opportunity to capitalize and defeat Anakin, although unlikely.

Where does Vader "fight like an Old Man" in EU or any descriptions of his fights? He always seems to have a lot of style, speed, and strength when in lightsaber combat ( Comics ,novels (Especially RODV), and in the movie scripts he is described as having "lightning movement"s). Sure, he's slow in Episode IV, but is that where you're getting that from?
Need I remind you that Mace's fight with Sidious was significantly slower than Vaders fight with Luke? Does that mean that both Mace and Sidious suck in saber combat?! No. Why? Things like the novels explain what happen. It has further actual explanations, that aren't your opinion. Stated facts > your opinion. So, don't try to pull that around here.

Originally posted by Gideon
According to tESB's commentary, Lucas said that Vader "lost his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor" hence why he needs Luke. So, Sidious was wrong.

Originally posted by Kadesh
That doesnt disprove palpatines quote, Vader doesnt realise palpatines statement, and did you see the word [B]If ? That means by the OT he still havnt got rid of his doubts thus remaining 80%. Palpatine was only implying IF he had shaken his doubts which he didnt of course. Losing something doesnt mean you cant regain it provided you know what to do. [/B]

No.

It does. If Vader possessed the ability - regardless of his doubts or mental handicaps - he would not have needed Luke and Lucas would not have made that remark.

Lucas said that Vader didn't have the power to become stronger than Sidious. He lost that ability on Mustafar, and the very fact that RoDV concludes with Sidious intent on securing "another apprentice" ought to clue you in on the fact that his previous assessment of Vader was proven wrong.

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

It does. If Vader possessed the ability - regardless of his doubts or mental handicaps - he would not have needed Luke and Lucas would not have made that remark.

Lucas said that Vader didn't have the power to become stronger than Sidious. He lost that ability on Mustafar, and the very fact that RoDV concludes with Sidious intent on securing "another apprentice" ought to clue you in on the fact that his previous assessment of Vader was proven wrong.

1. He would have needed luke because he did not know he had that ability, again several sith lords proved palpatines quote. Btw, did lucas even know what was written in RODV? Did he even care most importantly. And rodv came out quite some time after ROTS

2. Sidious needed to look for another apprentice because he already know that vader will never be able to shake lose his doubts, That was why he needed another one more powerful than vader

By the way, the commentary you mentioned he made in TESB, was it before ROTS? Or was it after? I need to know then i might concede all my points of this issue

Kadesh, Lucas doesn't need to base his opinions around the Expanded Universe novels. They are required to base the novels around his design. He said on the tESB commentary that "Vader lost his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor." That fact has been highlighted not only in the commentary, but in various interviews. Lucas, the highest authority in the canon tree, says that Vader did not possess the ability to become stronger than the Emperor - meaning that he did not have it. If all he had to do was "shake his doubts" then he still had the ability to do so - which contradicts Lucas's statements - which makes Sidious (who, for all his genius and experience), ultimately, a third party character whose opinions do not and cannot stand in the face of a higher canon authority such as Lucas. So, in conclusion, Vader did not have the power to become stronger than the Emperor - regardless if his "doubts" were gone.

Then i concede my points.

Isn't Vader, hypothetically, like 90-95% of ROTS Sidious..? It is a point to consider, statistically.

i think so, considering the fact that the quote was refering to ROTJ sidious who became alot stronger than his ROTS self as FOC proves and backs up

Originally posted by Advent
My thoughts on the matter only go so far as to say that Anakin would mop the floor with Darth Vader in lightsaber combat, not necessarily with the Force, as you seem to think I'm saying.

If you want me to post them, I'll just quote myself.

That's what I'm asking. Go ahead and quote yourself.