Count Dooku vs. Exar Kun

Started by Advent4 pages

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Exar took numerous precautions to assume he didn't fade over time and lose his power the Golden Globe, the darkness in Yavin, the giant statues? All of those he had to draw on when he awakened later on.

Relevance to what I said? None? Thanks. Although, I will say if he had such extreme things to summon power from, why exactly would he need to drain Gantoris' life force?

"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students."

By the way, can you provide the quote about the Golden Globe? As I don't remember that having been mentioned in I, Jedi or the Jedi Academy trilogy, and I've flipped through DLotS, and TSW, but didn't see it; a page number if it's in the comics would do. Actually, I'd like to see all the quotes referencing Exar drawing up such things - not that I don't believe you, but I'm not searching through the books or whatever else.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Im not in the mood to put up another Pwned sign.

Awww. 🙁

Edit:

I forget to include the quote feature on one of Kadesh's so called "points", so if you'll excuse me while I do that now:

Because simply he has never demonstrated them, its the same case with exar kun, lets say, Lumiya has never demonstrated lightning once in her life. And if we were to debate her in a versus fight, would it even be logical to say that she will be using lightning?

Has it been said anywhere that Lumiya actually knows Force lightning?

Anyways, the difference between what you listed, and what I'm arguing is simple: Exar is stated to know these powers for fact. The same can not be said for Lumiya, and the aforementioned power. Try again.

Plus, Lumiya is a cyborg anyways. She can't generate lightning because of such, so you're right - it would be illogical to say she would use lightning. Hahaha! Note: You weren't actually right about your reasonings for her not throwing out a blast of lightning, just in case you misinterpret "you're right" as you actually being right.

QED.

Originally posted by Advent

Relevance to what I said? None? Thanks. Although, I will say if he had such extreme things to summon power from, why exactly would he need to drain Gantoris' life force?

"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him [b]to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students."

By the way, can you provide the quote about the Golden Globe? As I don't remember that having been mentioned in I, Jedi or the Jedi Academy trilogy, and I've flipped through DLotS, and TSW, but didn't see it; a page number if it's in the comics would do. Actually, I'd like to see all the quotes referencing Exar drawing up such things - not that I don't believe you, but I'm not searching through the books or whatever else.

I was just bringing it up, thank you.

And possibly Kun needed Gantoris's life energy to repair his strength enough to access his other resevoirs. All I do now is KJA can't write a cohesive storyline.

Source would be the 'young Jedi Knights' series by KJA and Rebecca Moesta, I believe, btw. The Golden Globe was what Exar used to imprison the Massassi children to use their life forces later. And the requisite darkness on Yavin as it was was Kun's to use.

Also, out of curiosity, Advent, been on IM lately?

In Darth Sexy's place, I think someone's(Kadesh) just been:

ok i concede my points..

By the way Advent, where does it state the golden globe fuels his powers? It needs massassi to do so, and the old essential guide to characters backed this up

Originally posted by Kadesh
ok i concede my points..

By the way Advent, where does it state the golden globe fuels his powers? It needs massassi to do so, and the old essential guide to characters backed this up

I know the Golden Globe fed his energy during the ceremony where he unleashed himself from the flesh, but afterwards? I haven't heard such a thing in the actual source material, so provide a quote from tEGtC then if you actually want me to accept it; otherwise I can only assume it's not in there.

Now, the reason for me to say something like that is because if he actually had the Golden Globe, or the dark side of Yavin (?), then that begs the question: why is he so weak? Let me show you some evidence I've compiled from a single source:

"Kun discovered that one of his great temples was inhabited by a small band of armed humans. But before he could gather enough strength to reach out to tap his energy source, the Force-user and his fellows departed, and Kun again lapsed into sleep.

Eagerly, but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, proving for weaknessess and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to suside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active.

Enraged and drained, Ken returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris[...]

"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, pg. 49)

The first statement is talking about a Force sensitive human who arrived on Yavin, not any of Luke's Jedi, and the third statement is made in reference to when Kun appears to Luke as a shade of his father, and Luke rejects him. He's "drained", and is "desperate for energy", yet - according to you - he can call upon the Golden Globe, the dark side of Yavin, and other things. To me, if what you're saying is true, then those things do not help him much, if they even do at all.

So, given what I know, and what I provided (and your complete lack of evidence), I maintain my position that Exar, in physical form, is far greater than as a mere apparition (and that Exar > Count Dooku).

@ Lightsnake:

Also, out of curiosity, Advent, been on IM lately?

Well, yeah, actually, lol. I'll probably be on today after classes, around 4.

These are my thoughts, so dont get the wrong idea that im going to argue

ok well but its from the old version of the essential guide to characters and its summarised ALOT bigger than TNEGTC.

page 99 of the old essential guide to characters.

Wait before that, was it exar kun or kyp durron who tore lukes spirit from his own body?

Heres the quote
which says so.

The young man attacked the jedi master with the help of exar kun, using dark side lightning to seperate lukes spirit from his body

Ok forgive me but sometimes i am unable to understand certein passages, To this quote i have pulled out i assumed it was exar who used lightning because of the key word dark side lightning, i doubt kyp has learnt this technique at that time although i am wrong.

I havnt read the novel yet so i cant say much about this one, this one i leave it to you to either smash or confirm it.

Heres the one about the massasi thing i kept talking about. This is mentioned in this book im holding that summarised the time before exar kun gets wacked by the academy.

Kun mocked the students and their minor force talents ; yet this time he had no massassi to feed his waning power page 99 The old essential guide to characters.

Ok a few things id like to bring out. I assumed that kun was some how draining the massassi to fuel his powers either through sith aparatus or through the golden globe, that one i cant tell for sure because i didnt research on this part much( exars not my fav character so i dont bother much). Like i said i havnt read the book yet so i cant tell for sure, only you can for this matter i think.

Ok the keyword is "minor force talents" which w as referring to the academys students and i doubt that "sith lightning" is a minor talent andn that since this is a jedi academy and not a sith academy that it would be highly unlikely kyp knew this power thus using lightning on luke so i assumed since exar is the masterful sith lord, i assumed from the book that it was referring to kun using the lightning, I MAY be wrong lol i didnt read the book,

Anyways the rest i leave to you advent, these are just my thoughts so dont get the wrong idea that i want to argue and get my ass moped

Originally posted by Advent
I know the Golden Globe fed his energy during the ceremony where he unleashed himself from the flesh, but afterwards? I haven't heard such a thing in the actual source material, so provide a quote from tEGtC then if you actually want me to accept it; otherwise I can only assume it's not in there.

Now, the reason for me to say something like that is because if he actually had the Golden Globe, or the dark side of Yavin (?), then that begs the question: why is he so weak? Let me show you some evidence I've compiled from a single source:

"Kun discovered that one of his great temples was inhabited by a small band of armed humans. [b]But before he could gather enough strength to reach out to tap his energy source, the Force-user and his fellows departed, and Kun again lapsed into sleep.

Eagerly, but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, proving for weaknessess and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to suside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active.

Enraged and drained, Ken returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris[...]

"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, pg. 49)

The first statement is talking about a Force sensitive human who arrived on Yavin, not any of Luke's Jedi, and the third statement is made in reference to when Kun appears to Luke as a shade of his father, and Luke rejects him. He's "drained", and is "desperate for energy", yet - according to you - he can call upon the Golden Globe, the dark side of Yavin, and other things. To me, if what you're saying is true, then those things do not help him much, if they even do at all.

So, given what I know, and what I provided (and your complete lack of evidence), I maintain my position that Exar, in physical form, is far greater than as a mere apparition (and that Exar > Count Dooku).

@ Lightsnake:

Well, yeah, actually, lol. I'll probably be on today after classes, around 4. [/B]

As I said: After killing Gantoris, Kun became more powerful. It's possible he needed his life force to reach out to the sources of power. In I, Jedi, he's built up around there quite a bit and even left sources of dark side power for the day he was gone.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Wait before that, was it exar kun or kyp durron who tore lukes spirit from his own body?

It was Exar Kun who actually knew the technique. However, it was Kyp who launched the initial assault. He augmented Kyp's power, and attacked in conjunction to the point where Luke was overwhelmed.

Though, again, I will say that Exar in his physical form is far greater in power than the greenhorn Kyp Durron, and his spirit - that's just for anyone who might say that Exar can't pull off such a technique, when he clearly can. Seeing as even post-DE Luke, who had learned from Sidious himself, Yoda, and Obi-Wan couldn't even muster a defense for the technique, I doubt people like Count Dooku, Darth Vader, and the like would be able to even attempt such a thing.

Ok forgive me but sometimes i am unable to understand certein passages, To this quote i have pulled out i assumed it was exar who used lightning because of the key word dark side lightning, i doubt kyp has learnt this technique at that time although i am wrong.

You're wrong here. Exar Kun had taught Kyp Durron just some "remnant powers" (which would suggest that it was an extremely small amount), and Kyp knew how to summon lightning, or some form of it:

"With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides.

The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body. He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all." (Dark Apprentice, p. 339)

Now, from the description given, we can assume that it isn't standard force lightning, but it is some form of it, hence "dark side lightning" could've been used as a loose term for describing the above. Exar does add his power, and attacks with a different technique, though.

I havnt read the novel yet so i cant say much about this one, this one i leave it to you to either smash or confirm it.

I don't know exactly what the purpose of you writing this was, as it didn't have much, if anything, to do with what I wrote. But, I addressed it anyways.

Ok a few things id like to bring out. I assumed that kun was some how draining the massassi to fuel his powers either through sith aparatus or through the golden globe

But, he wasn't. See my previous post. There's no mention of him feeding on any of the Massassi, and the Golden Globe isn't so much as noted once in the actual source material (i.e I, Jedi, Jedi Academy trilogy).

Given that fact, one could say that it was merely referencing his death in TSW. There was still Massassi trapped in the Golden Globe after Exar's death; so, that begs the question of why couldn't he drain them at that point? The only likely assumption is that he never could, or did, and that it's in regards to the ritual at his death. If I may, we know that he practically committed genocide by draining the Massassi, and they did fuel the power needed to unleash his spirit:

"Drained from thousands of Massassi sacrifices... the power is rising. The ritual begun... Sith power objects unleashed!"

Plus, did you even read what I wrote regarding this? Why would he be so weak if he had such sources to draw from? It's apparent that what you believe isn't the case.

Ok the keyword is "minor force talents" which w as referring to the academys students and i doubt that "sith lightning" is a minor talent

Actually, it is. If I recall correctly, Quinlan Vos was able to generate lightning, even though he had hardly been trained by Count Dooku.

But, anyways, that's not the point. We already know that Exar taught Kyp a small amount of Sith powers, and clearly one of said powers was some form of force lightning.

andn that since this is a jedi academy and not a sith academy that it would be highly unlikely kyp knew this power thus using lightning on luke so i assumed since exar is the masterful sith lord, i assumed from the book that it was referring to kun using the lightning, I MAY be wrong lol i didnt read the book,

You are wrong, the novel is what makes it clear, actually.

Anyways the rest i leave to you advent, these are just my thoughts so dont get the wrong idea that i want to argue and get my ass moped

I'm not quite understanding what you're trying to get at, Kadesh, seeing as how it doesn't have much to do with what I wrote (i.e. the lightning bit).

Quinlan Vos was able to generate lightning

He used Lightning in the Clone Wars? Damn, I need to read Light and Dark again.

Vos used Force Lightning, albeit a weak one, on Volfe Karkko in the Darkness saga. Obviously though, Quinlan was in such a state of horror, sadness, and anger that he wasn't thinking properly and just roared out and unleashed some Lightning. I doubt he was trained by anybody to that, it just naturally formed by all his devastation thrown out by the Force.

Sure. 😉

Does Kun have his Sith saber. If so, He might eake out a victory.

Originally posted by Advent
It was Exar Kun who actually knew the technique. However, it was Kyp who launched the initial assault. He augmented Kyp's power, and attacked in conjunction to the point where Luke was overwhelmed.

Though, again, I will say that Exar in his physical form is far greater in power than the greenhorn Kyp Durron, and his spirit - that's just for anyone who might say that Exar can't pull off such a technique, when he clearly can. Seeing as even post-DE Luke, who had learned from Sidious himself, Yoda, and Obi-Wan couldn't even muster a defense for the technique, I doubt people like Count Dooku, Darth Vader, and the like would be able to even attempt such a thing.

You're wrong here. Exar Kun had taught Kyp Durron just some "remnant powers" (which would suggest that it was an extremely small amount), and Kyp knew how to summon lightning, or some form of it:

"With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, [b]Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides.

The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body. He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all." (Dark Apprentice, p. 339)

Now, from the description given, we can assume that it isn't standard force lightning, but it is some form of it, hence "dark side lightning" could've been used as a loose term for describing the above. Exar does add his power, and attacks with a different technique, though.

I don't know exactly what the purpose of you writing this was, as it didn't have much, if anything, to do with what I wrote. But, I addressed it anyways.

But, he wasn't. See my previous post. There's no mention of him feeding on any of the Massassi, and the Golden Globe isn't so much as noted once in the actual source material (i.e I, Jedi, Jedi Academy trilogy).

Given that fact, one could say that it was merely referencing his death in TSW. There was still Massassi trapped in the Golden Globe after Exar's death; so, that begs the question of why couldn't he drain them at that point? The only likely assumption is that he never could, or did, and that it's in regards to the ritual at his death. If I may, we know that he practically committed genocide by draining the Massassi, and they did fuel the power needed to unleash his spirit:

"Drained from thousands of Massassi sacrifices... the power is rising. The ritual begun... Sith power objects unleashed!"

Plus, did you even read what I wrote regarding this? Why would he be so weak if he had such sources to draw from? It's apparent that what you believe isn't the case.

Actually, it is. If I recall correctly, Quinlan Vos was able to generate lightning, even though he had hardly been trained by Count Dooku.

But, anyways, that's not the point. We already know that Exar taught Kyp a small amount of Sith powers, and clearly one of said powers was some form of force lightning.

You are wrong, the novel is what makes it clear, actually.

I'm not quite understanding what you're trying to get at, Kadesh, seeing as how it doesn't have much to do with what I wrote (i.e. the lightning bit). [/B]

well thanks for sumarising that, Btw do you still have the book? i cant seem to find it in any book store.

Btw advent have you read shadows of the empire novel?

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Does Kun have his Sith saber. If so, He might eake out a victory.

What does having a Sith saber have to do with anything?

Actually, he said HIS sith saber, probably meaning the double edged one....

Great points, Advent...but, uh, any thoughts on who'd win? I'm guessing you're going for Kun.

Yes, I'd say Exar wins, only because he does.

Exar'd probably win. But not easily. Not in the least. And in saber alone, Exar may very well lose

Wholy crap Advent, nice posts.

Exar Kun would indeed win with a saber. He might not be that much better than Dooku but with his foreign technique and blade, he has the full advantage. He would pwn Dooku with the force.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Wholy crap Advent, nice posts.

QFT.