TPM Darth Maul & Qui-Gon vs. AOTC Obi-Wan & Anakin

Originally posted by darthsith19
this is in the Geonosian Hanger, where there are no holes in the floor or rivers of lava, I don't see how Kenobi could get lucky.

Kenobi "getting lucky" happened more than 10 years before his status in this fight. Are you saying Kenobi, who had Maul on his ass, arguably keeping up with him, and nearly managing to kill him, got lucky because Maul kicked him in a hole? If anyone got lucky, it was Maul.

Second of all, Obi-Wan has completely not only redefined his fighting style since that fight, but also has become an accomplished Jedi Knight within that time.

Originally posted by Se7in
Kenobi "getting lucky" happened more than 10 years before his status in this fight. Are you saying Kenobi, who had Maul on his ass, arguably keeping up with him, and nearly managing to kill him, got lucky because Maul kicked him in a hole? If anyone got lucky, it was Maul.

Second of all, Obi-Wan has completely not only redefined his fighting style since that fight, but also has become an accomplished Jedi Knight within that time.

How did Maul get lucky? Kenobi could only keep up with him so well because he was fighting with the dark side, and, as stated before, Maul had an ankle injury. After a mere 30 seconds, Kenobi's efforts left him exhausted (stated in the TPM script, I can get you a quote if you want one) and Maul kicked him in the pit. Had the pit not been there, Maul would have stabbed him instead, hence why Obi-Wan got lucky.

I think Maul and Qui-Gon are better then Anakin and Obi-Wan, not by allot, but still better. But AOTC duo has a better teamwork.
Personally i think Maul and Qui-Gon win, mostly because of Anakins hot temper at this time, he would lose control, just like with Dooku and do something stupid.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
IM going with the aotc team. Maul's dueling style with a double blae and wide swings would make him a sucky tag team partner. plus.
1) tpm obi beat maul so what chance does maul have against aotc obi.
2)qui gons age would hinder him against a young vivacious anakin.

Originally posted by darthsith19
He didn't exactly redefine his fighting style, he took up an entirely new lightsaber forum so he had to pretty much start over again with a saber. He had ten years to learn Soresu, he probably had more time than that to learn Ataru originally. He may have became an accomplished Jedi, but nowhere near the level of someone who is "the finest swordsman in the order".

Ataru is a form which focuses offensive acrobatics and Force-assisted movements, greatly draining the user physically, hence why both he, Qui-Gon, and Yoda all become extremely tired after fights, which directly lead to Qui-Gon's death.

Soresu is a form focusing on creating a defense which can be maintained with minimal energy in order to prolong fighting in order to allow the opponent to either tire out or reveal a flaw in their fighting style.

They sound like complete opposites to me. I think redefining is an accurate description.

And again with these references to this Anoon Bondara character. Cin Drallig was described as the same way, yet look at how he was rather easily defeated by Anakin and then look at how Obi fared against Vader on Mustafar, yet we've heard no quotes of Kenobi's skill (at least in my experience). The quote is moot in my opinion.

How did Maul get lucky? Kenobi could only keep up with him so well because he was fighting with the dark side, and, as stated before, Maul had an ankle injury. After a mere 30 seconds, Kenobi's efforts left him exhausted (stated in the TPM script, I can get you a quote if you want one) and Maul kicked him in the pit. Had the pit not been there, Maul would have stabbed him instead, hence why Obi-Wan got lucky.

Maul got lucky because there was a hole to kick Kenobi into. Maul was planted on his ass, and he barely managed to get back up in time, but did. However when Kenobi was kicked down, he managed to fall into a hole. Maul got lucky. And as far as had the pit not been there, we don't know whether or not Maul would stabbed him. That's pure speculation. Knocking him into the hole guaranteed him an advantageous position.

And again, Kenobi's stamina in TPM has nothing to do with this fight. This is 10 years later, and he has a great deal much more experience as well as a fighting style that helps him maintain stamina.

Why does everyone keep going on and on about how Kenobi knocked Maul on his ***. Maul was knocking BOTH Jinn and Kenobi on their butts CONTINUOUSLY throughout the whole fight.

Originally posted by Se7in

Maul got lucky because there was a hole to kick Kenobi into. Maul was planted on his ass, and he barely managed to get back up in time, but did. However when Kenobi was kicked down, he managed to fall into a hole. Maul got lucky. And as far as had the pit not been there, we don't know whether or not Maul would stabbed him. That's pure speculation. Knocking him into the hole guaranteed him an advantageous position.

Would you then say, that ROTJ Luke is better or close to OT Vader, because the almost same thing happened in that fight, just that Vader didn't get back up.

In both scenarios, the stronger opponent(Maul and Vader), were surprised, at how strong and determined, their weaker opponents(Obi-Wan and Luke) came at them. It was under special circumstances.
But in a normal fight, both Sith Lords would easily kill their opponents.

And the TPM novel makes it clear, that Maul>Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon>TPM Kenobi.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Would you then say, that ROTJ Luke is better or close to OT Vader, because the almost same thing happened in that fight, just that Vader didn't get back up.

In both scenarios, the stronger opponent(Maul and Vader), were surprised, at how strong and determined, their weaker opponents(Obi-Wan and Luke) came at them. It was under special circumstances.
But in a normal fight, both Sith Lords would easily kill their opponents.

And the TPM novel makes it clear, that Maul>Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon>TPM Kenobi.

A>B, B>C, therefore A>C logic doesn't work well in Star Wars. Anakin beat Dooku, but Dooku beat Obi-Wan, who beat Anakin. It doesn't work, just as it won't work with Yoda, Mace, and Sidious.

Vader and Luke had a relationship, which Vader knew of and took into account. It's well known that Vader tried to convert Luke, not kill him. Maul and Obi-Wan had never met and were complete enemies. I'll admit, Obi-Wan's win was unorthodox, but he managed to come back while at an extreme disadvantage. I think Obi's comeback speaks equally of both his abilities and Maul's arrogance.

It's not the fact that Maul> them individually he was beating the crap outta both the entire duel. Kenobi could only match Maul for awhile after he gave in to the Dark Side. Andd Maul still beat Kenobi only to have Lucas pull off one of the most stupid comeback miracles in history just because the series couldn't continue w/o Kenobi.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
It's not the fact that Maul> them individually he was beating the crap outta both the entire duel. Kenobi could only match Maul for awhile after he gave in to the Dark Side. Andd Maul still beat Kenobi only to have Lucas pull off one of the most stupid comeback miracles in history just because the series couldn't continue w/o Kenobi.

Beating the crap out of them both? I disagree, he was winning, but not by any huge margin. He managed to knock Obi-Wan down and separate them for the majority of the fight, and was backhanded and knocked on his ass by Qui-Gon and again with a kick to the chest by Obi. Just because Maul used fancy acrobatics doesn't mean he was winning the entire duel.

The duel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eTWnbSDJYw

Obi-Wan managed to overpower Maul at 3:48, again at 3:58, chop his saber in half at the 4:00 mark and subsequently knock him on his ass. The only time Obi-Wan does get knocked back at the fight, is at 4:07, in which he completely recovers instantly. Only 4:21 does Maul take the advantage, and only because there was a hole behind him. Other than that, Obi seems to have the entire fight within his grasp.

But that was Obi over 10 years before his status in this fight. Given he has had experience fighting by Maul and Qui-Gon by this time, and a completely new style, Maul and Qui-Gon go down comfortably. Adding Anakin to the fight is overkill.

Originally posted by Se7in
A>B, B>C, therefore A>C logic doesn't work well in Star Wars. Anakin beat Dooku, but Dooku beat Obi-Wan, who beat Anakin. It doesn't work, just as it won't work with Yoda, Mace, and Sidious.

Vader and Luke had a relationship, which Vader knew of and took into account. It's well known that Vader tried to convert Luke, not kill him. Maul and Obi-Wan had never met and were complete enemies. I'll admit, Obi-Wan's win was unorthodox, but he managed to come back while at an extreme disadvantage. I think Obi's comeback speaks equally of both his abilities and Maul's arrogance.

You have a point, but the case with Maul/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan isn't a A>B>C argument. Maul defeated both opponents, but lost his life because of special circumstances., Obi -Wan was already defeated.
But i admit, that his comeback, was a real show of skill.

Its true that Vader, didn't want to kill Luke, but Luke also didn't want to kill Vader, because he wanted to turn him back to the light. Its only when Vader said he will turn Lea, to the Dark Side, that Luke got angry and in that fury, had no though about Vaders safety, but Vader was giving his best, just to stay alive. And Luke could have killed him, if he wanted to, he had him at his mercy.c Does that mean Luke is better then Vader, hell no. Vader(like Maul) was just surprised at how strong, his opponent came at him, but in normal circumstances, both Sith Lords, would have killed their younger opponents easily.

Yes