Originally posted by Doc Ock
Yeah, sure.You didn't make any valid points, but I entertained your silly ranting. Your only backing was poorly executed snide remarks.
That's a claim you can't back up. You keep saying "Venom is only yada yada yada" with absolutely no knowledge of the backstory at all.
If I were pissed, sure, you could call that a rant. But I wasn't. Just putting the facts out into the open. It's obvious you don't know anything about Venom.
I could have easily have said, "Ock blames everything on Spider-Man because he foiled one plot. What a whiner," but that would be a half-truth, wouldn't it?
Yet I didn't. I told the truth that during the 90's he wasn't portrayed as tough as he was during the 80s. The 90s were the time of the Symbiotes in any sense of it.
It's your opinion that it was a strong time for Ock. Well, opinion can be wrong, and it is. I don't really care how many people agree with you. Plenty of people think Hulk can take Superman, and I'm not going to say they're correct just because there's a bunch of them.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
What, to try and make your brain function?? I don't think I have enough quarters for that 😄
You complain that I'm insulting you, then do the same yourself? Your hypocrisy amazes me.
Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
That's a claim you can't back up. You keep saying "Venom is only yada yada yada" with absolutely no knowledge of the backstory at all.
I know everything about his back story. Does child abuse excuse stupidity and idiotic thinking??
No. Brock's motivations for hating Spidey are weak.
If I were pissed, sure, you could call that a rant. But I wasn't. Just putting the facts out into the open. It's obvious you don't know anything about Venom.
You're talking BS! I know all there is to know about him. Ask me anything. I've read all his stuff. 90% of it is rubbish.
I could have easily have said, "Ock blames everything on Spider-Man because he foiled one plot. What a whiner," but that would be a half-truth, wouldn't it?
No, it would be a no truth, because Ock doesn't blame Spider-Man for anything personal.
Yet I didn't. I told the truth that during the 90's he wasn't portrayed as tough as he was during the 80s. The 90s were the time of the Symbiotes in any sense of it.
The 90's was the decade of desperation regarding Spidey. The spawning of a bunch of different symbiote related characters, all a lame plot device to try and keep Venom around, as his rivalry with Spidey had gotten so stale, it was, and still is a yawner.
Venom's best stories were his early 80's ones.
It's your opinion that it was a strong time for Ock. Well, opinion can be wrong, and it is. I don't really care how many people agree with you. Plenty of people think Hulk can take Superman, and I'm not going to say they're correct just because there's a bunch of them.
No, it's many people's opinion that many fine Ock stories stemmed form that decade. Not just mine. Don't try and tar everyone with the same brush.
Go to some of the infamous Spidey comic websites like Spiderfan.org and Samruby, and read the positive reviews they got, if you doubt me.
You complain that I'm insulting you, then do the same yourself? Your hypocrisy amazes me.
Not hypocrisy. Just fighting fire with fire. I'm not going to sit back and take insults from some bitter little brat, who has such a chip on his shoulder that he goes and makes a thread about Ock in the versus forum, and even mentions me in the opening post.
Truly, truly sad. I mean, what is your problem?? Did my own opinion offend you THAT much?? A few others here have expressed distaste at Venom, too. Should they expect the same kind of abuse??
Here's a question for you: Can you name me one exciting or thrilling climax of the Spidey/Venom rivalry?? Something where Venom finally crossed a line, like Joker has with Batman, or Green Goblin with Spidey, or Bullseye with DD?? Can you even name a moment involving Venom that's considered classic in the Spidey mythos??
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Usually rivalries began during friendships. I think GG and Spidey is very unique in it's own sense.
Cosigned. Some of the best ones are the tragic ones, where they were once friends but through forces outside of the characters hands they end up as bitter enemies. That's why I like the Superman / Lex rivalry the most, because considering what good friends they were growing up, it's really tragic that circumstances would lead them to become enemies.
I also like this similar situation when it involves a mentor / student, such as with Sinestro and Hal Jordan. One of my favorite moments remains when Hal Jordan recently returned as Green Lantern. He was confronted once more by Sinestro, and when Sinestro was defeated he sentimentally said something to Hal like "...and Hal, welcome back" before he disappeared. Great stuff.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
[BHere's a question for you: Can you name me one exciting or thrilling climax of the Spidey/Venom rivalry?? Something where Venom finally crossed a line, like Joker has with Batman, or Green Goblin with Spidey, or Bullseye with DD?? Can you even name a moment involving Venom that's considered classic in the Spidey mythos?? [/B]
I can name a few.
Amazing Spider-Man 363. Not a definitive battle, but definitive to the relationship and rivalry between the two characters, because Spider-Man went back on his word to Venom.
Venom: Finale. Essentially a battle of opposing ideologies (Hero vs Anti-Hero)
Venom: Lethal Protector. First time Spider-Man witnesses Venom save a life at the cost of his own well being, and teaches Spidey not to judge Venom by his teeth and appearance.
there are more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.
Venom's not one of the big 3 Spidey villains for no reason. He's a rich character with backstory and depth to him, and has defined a huge part of Spider-Man's life, and Spider-Man's view on right and wrong.
Any Spider-man fan like Digimark, Scoobless, or even myself can tell you that.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Take it elsewhere, or better yet just drop it guys. Don't ruin an otherwise good thread because of your petty bickering....and make me do more than issue idle warnings.😬
I apologize, Digi. It's my fault for letting him get to me in the first place. I tried to make the debate a bit more logical with my previous post, but it seemed to have fell on deaf ears and blind eyes.
Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Amazing Spider-Man 363. Not a definitive battle, but definitive to the relationship and rivalry between the two characters, because Spider-Man went back on his word to Venom.
Nothing special here. Spidey has gone back on his word with many foes in the past.
Venom: Finale. Essentially a battle of opposing ideologies (Hero vs Anti-Hero)
Again, nothing special here. Spidey's battled anti-heros before. Like the Punisher. At least the Punisher has some real reasons for being what he is.
Venom: Lethal Protector. First time Spider-Man witnesses Venom save a life at the cost of his own well being, and teaches Spidey not to judge Venom by his teeth and appearance.
This was one of the times where the character did a complete 180 and went against previous type. He has no problem killing innocent people to escape from jail or some poor bum who happened to see him in the sewers or whatever. But he'll go protector just like that.
Venom's not one of the big 3 Spidey villains for no reason.
I'm well aware that he's ranked along side Doc Ock and Green Goblin. I never disputed that.
This is a thread about personal rivalry, right?? As personal foes go, Venom has made the least impact, and done nothing to hurt Spider-Man personally. Ock has hurt Spider-Man more personally, and he has not got a personal vendetta with Spidey.
When you compare Venom to his fellow personal foes here like Joker, Green Goblin, Bullseye etc. Those guys have crossed the line with the hero. Venom never has. This is why I find him the least impressive of the personal rivalries.
Sorry if that offends you. But that's my opinion. And you should learn to debate with someone respectfully, without attacking them just because you disagree with them.
You lash out at everyone who doesn't share your views, and you're going to have a rough life ahead of you. You'd swear we were discussing religion or politics the way you carried on.
He's a rich character with backstory and depth to him, and has defined a huge part of Spider-Man's life
You have yet to prove that. Especially the latter part.
Any Spider-man fan like Digimark, Scoobless, or even myself can tell you that.
You can tell me it all you like. Prove it to me, because it sure isn't there in the comic books.
It's my fault for letting him get to me in the first place
Well, at least you can admit when you're in the wrong. Lets hope you're more civil in future, and we can debate in a friendlier manner.
Thanks for cooling it down, Digi.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
Nothing special here. Spidey has gone back on his word with many foes in the past.
True, but each situation differs from each other. Essentially, Spider-Man led Venom on that he'd get to bust Cassady, then go back to his island in peace. It's kind of like taking a waffle away from a starving man, except this starving man is a dude who lifted a 30 ton or so bulldozer over your head and was gonna kill you with it.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
Again, nothing special here. Spidey's battled anti-heros before. Like the Punisher. At least the Punisher has some real reasons for being what he is.
Venom does as well. His reasoning is that he wants to give people he deems innocent a better shot at life than he got, thus his defending of the homeless in California. Also, this is an anti-hero that Spider-man has a personal history with, considering he nearly had to die to make Venom understand who Spider-Man really was after Venom had kidnapped Peter's parents. Though Frank and Spidey have differning ideologies, Frank is more or less an anti-hero tied to Daredevil, whilst Venom is tied to Spider-Man. Essentially, when Spider-Man looks at Eddie Brock as Venom, he sees what he could have been if he crossed one line, and maybe even wishes he was some days.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
This was one of the times where the character did a complete 180 and went against previous type. He has no problem killing innocent people to escape from jail or some poor bum who happened to see him in the sewers or whatever. But he'll go protector just like that.
It didn't really seem that random to me. Like I mentioned before, Eddie has a twisted version of right and wrong, innocent and guilty. If you notice in issue 1, he kills a gang member and robber without a second thought, but only KO's two policemen who pull guns on him. This is Eddie coming back from the fight I mentioned (where Pete's parents were kidnapped). Essentially, roles were reversed from when Pete saved Anne Weying, to where Eddie Saved a guilty man from death.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
This is a thread about personal rivalry, right?? As personal foes go, Venom has made the least impact, and done nothing to hurt Spider-Man personally. Ock has hurt Spider-Man more personally, and he has not got a personal vendetta with Spidey.
That's not entirely true for the Venom part. Eddie seemed to be the foe that Spider-Man just could not shake. He even admitted himself in Finale that there is no physical way that he could harm Venom. He can only win with his wits. Venom was the essential definition of nemesis.
As for known impact, you have to understand that Venom has been in the least media because he's such a violent and dark character. Though I know Goblin and Ock have their darker sides, Venom's the type that would twist a guy's head off like an asprin lid like it was nothing.
It will be interesting to see Gargan Venom and Norman Osbourne on the same team in Thunderbolts though, but I think Ellis may make a switch from Gargan back to Brock, since he's familiar with Eddie and Cletus a bit more, and Eddie is a fan fave. That's theory though.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
When you compare Venom to his fellow personal foes here like Joker, Green Goblin, Bullseye etc. Those guys have crossed the line with the hero. Venom never has. This is why I find him the least impressive of the personal rivalries.
Actually, Venom has crossed that line before. Kidnapping family members, and he revealed himself first to Mary Jane, scaring the bejesus out of her in his first actual appearance. The rivalry between Spider-Man is defined by their opposing ideals and Spider-Man's inability to shake Brock for anything. It seems that every hero has a nemesis that almost seems like a force of nature when they do battle, and Venom is Spider-Man's. Spidey can get confident when he fights Osbourne or Doc, but how do you get confidence when you battle someone that you can't hurt?
Maybe part of the reason that it's a definitive rivalry is because it's far from typical, but it may be better to get another opinion.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
You have yet to prove that. Especially the latter part.
You can tell me it all you like. Prove it to me, because it sure isn't there in the comic books.
Essentially it comes down to reading the character and soaking in all the info. If you'd like, I can give you some definitive readings, but that's all up to you.
Once again, I'm sorry I lashed out at you.
I think a key defining part of a good rivalry is that the two characters must be equal matches, and not just two guys who hate each other a lot.
Also, there must be a deep psychological aspect as well as physical aspect. Sabretooth/Wolverine is a good illustration of a entertaining rivalry that lacks psychological depth, and therefore isn't a great rivalry despite superficially appearing to be. Venom/Spiderman falls into the same category.
Spiderman/Goblin is just much more interesting because of the deep psycholgical torment Peter receives at the hands of Goblin to match their battles.